Preterist interpretation of events?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by parousia70
As I said,
Not one single verse in the Old Testament, or New, written after the Babylonian Captivity mentions any other dispersion and re-gathering of the Jews.

Luke 21 indeed mentions a dispersion.

What is the scripture that prophesies the regathering in 1948 from the dispersion in Luke 21??

I already told you. All of the scriptures in the OT that refer to the regathering of the Jews into a union where Judah and Israel were no longer separate could not have been fulfilled before 1948, because the last time there was an Israel before that, Judah and Israel were separate. They are now one and the same -- there is no distinction between Judah and Israel. That was predicted in some of those regathering prophecies in the OT.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by npetreley


I already told you. All of the scriptures in the OT that refer to the regathering of the Jews into a union where Judah and Israel were no longer separate could not have been fulfilled before 1948, because the last time there was an Israel before that, Judah and Israel were separate. They are now one and the same -- there is no distinction between Judah and Israel. That was predicted in some of those regathering prophecies in the OT.

Ok, but could you Humor me with a chapter and verse of just "one" of those "regathering" prophesies you believe could only have been fulfilled in 1948?

Telling me they are there isn't of much help if you can't point me to them specifically.
Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant by coming in the flesh and giving his life for the sins of humankind on the cross.

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." He did not say this of his own accord, but being high pirest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (John 11:49-52)

If there are any Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled, then Jesus is not who he said he was and his sacrifice did not fulfill its purpose.

The promises made to Israel under the Old Covenant are inherited by the Church under the New Covenant.

As this broken bread was scattered over the hills
and then, when gathered, became one mass,
so may Thy Church be gathered
from the ends of the earth in to Thy Kingdom.
(The Didache, 9.4a)
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by parousia70

Ok, but could you Humor me with a chapter and verse of just "one" of those "regathering" prophesies you believe could only have been fulfilled in 1948?

Telling me they are there isn't of much help if you can't point me to them specifically.
Thanks.

Sorry - I thought you'd be familiar with these verses, but that was my mistake (and I'm honestly not being critical or sarcastic, in case you suspect that).

There's at least one or two other places in the OT which make it more clear that Judah and Israel will be united (if I recall correctly, one used a metaphor of a stick that is joined together). But I like this one because it not only predicts that Judah and Israel will be united under one head, but it also places that event AFTER the time of the gentiles. (See Romans 9:26, which quotes from verse 10 to illustrate that although the Jews hadn't expected it, the Bible always said that the gentiles would be saved.)

10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, "You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, "You are sons of the living God.'

11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Whoops - I forgot to tell you where this is from! Hosea 1:10-11.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by npetreley


I hope you're not saying that the church replaced Israel and the Jews will no longer receive these promises.

When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense acepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

God is not denying one single Jew free access to the promise, through Jesus Christ. All are accepted.


The Chuirch did not replace Israel, The Church always was "Israel". True Isreal was always the believing remnant.
 
Upvote 0

davo

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2002
471
3
Visit site
✟1,104.00
Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant by coming in the flesh and giving his life for the sins of humankind on the cross.

If there are any Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled, then Jesus is not who he said he was and his sacrifice did not fulfill its purpose.

The promises made to Israel under the Old Covenant are inherited by the Church under the New Covenant.

Right on the money!

Originally posted by parousia70
God is not denying one single Jew free access to the promise, through Jesus Christ. All are accepted.

The Chuirch did not replace Israel, The Church always was "Israel". True Isreal was always the believing remnant.

Hence: "This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness" [God has always had His believing people -the just, finding LIFE through faith]

davo
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by parousia70


When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense acepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

God is not denying one single Jew free access to the promise, through Jesus Christ. All are accepted.


The Chuirch did not replace Israel, The Church always was "Israel". True Isreal was always the believing remnant.


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

According to plain, simple, clear reading of this passage in Romans, Israel isn't the same thing as the church, or else Paul wouldn't be speaking of them separately. And it also seems like there is an unfulfilled prophecy right here.
 
Upvote 0

davo

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2002
471
3
Visit site
✟1,104.00
Originally posted by npetreley
According to plain, simple, clear reading of this passage in Romans, Israel isn't the same thing as the church, or else Paul wouldn't be speaking of them separately. And it also seems like there is an unfulfilled prophecy right here.

They certainly were separate, and as for your: "seems like there is an unfulfilled prophecy right here" -you are correct. What you probably may not have considered is this -it was at THAT time in the process of being fulfilled -and in His Parousia was.

Rom 11:25-29: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance..

The Church came in and completed Israel -so all Israel being saved. They were [the Gentiles] not a people, yet when they joined Christ they joined the commonwealth of Israel -inheriting ALL the promises. Now futurists tend to poo-hoo this as "spiritualising" [yet do all the same themselves, variously], but the epistles are full of this. Abraham waited for a city whose builder is God -this speaks of nothing other than salvation -"Abraham saw My day and rejoiced" etc etc etc. This IS the substance [reality-fulfillment] to the shadows prefigured under the old regime.

When Christ came in His Parousia this was the "turning away ungodliness from Jacob" -salvation complete i.e., RESTORATION. Israel was elected to be the way or mean of salvation in the sense that the Christ was promised through them -they were to be the light to the Gentiles -as Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews" -Israel Fulfilled her calling for the REMNANT which included the Gentiles was saved.

The temporary hardening of Israel's heart was working salvation for the Gentiles which in turn was working jealousy for Israel -prompting many Jews to turn to Christ [just read through Acts and note how many were responding in faith -especially from the hierarchhy]. Jesus had said: "I have flock from another fold that I must gather that there be one flock and one Shepherd" -making out of the two ONE NEW MAN.

Christ's Cross worked salvation for Israel which in turn worked salvation for the whole world. The families of the earth are blessed through BELIEVING [noun] Abraham. While temple sacrifices were being offered [though post cross meaningless] the way into the Holiest of All [SALVATION] was not yet complete. When the Temple came down this would be THE sign ["what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age?" -the old covenant age] that so had Christ -filling his Body, the Church with His fulness -God filling all in all.

davo
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mandy

Well-Known Member
Dec 28, 2001
3,482
8
51
California
Visit site
✟7,109.00
Originally posted by Patmosman_sga


Dispensationalists are the true architechts of confusion in the Church. They don't even agree with each other on some of their most "fundamental" points. Tim LaHaye is in hot water with other dispy's because he says people can be saved "after" the rapture. I thought all good dispy's knew that was impossible! :D

How is it impossible, when Revelation makes it clear?
 
Upvote 0

Mandy

Well-Known Member
Dec 28, 2001
3,482
8
51
California
Visit site
✟7,109.00
Originally posted by jenlu
Mandy...

I don't have proof, but from the description of the babylon of Revelation...it appears it could be no other but Jerusalem(Israel)...

We begin with John(Jesus) describing Babylon as the "great Harlot...with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication." Jerusalem in the O.T. is described as God's wife or bride turned to harlotry..."You spread your legs to every passerby to multiply your harlotry" Ezekial 16:25...There are other places in Ezekial and Isaih the describe Jerusalem as a harlot...this may not convince you, but another description is the clincher for me...

First "Mother of harlots...drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus" and Second, "in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth"...this could only be Jerusalem in my opinion...and it coincides with one of Jesus' condemnations/indictments he laid down during his time on earth as a human...
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth...Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!"

Babylon is not Jerusalem. God isn't through with Israel as stated in the Scriptures. The 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes in Revelation shows this, as does Romans. Look at the woman with the Child in Revelation, the woman is Israel. Read Ezekiel 37-39, too. After the rapture, God will deal with Israel again, this is when the fulness of the gentile will be complete.
 
Upvote 0

davo

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2002
471
3
Visit site
✟1,104.00
Originally posted by Mandy
Has anyone read Ezekiel 37? It shows perfectly the regathering of the Jews and is I believe the Scripture npetreley is referring to.

Ezekiel 37 is in deed the "regathering of the Jews" in the "Resurrection" through their acceptance of the New Covenant in Christ -the Remnant. "The Gathering" in Scripture is in fact "The Resurrection."

davo
 
Upvote 0

jenlu

Active Member
May 29, 2002
246
2
Visit site
✟625.00
Mandy,

Who is the child described in Revelations in your opinion? I also have another question. How come Jesus(answer to the previous question) described Jerusalem as having all the righteous blood shed on their necks...then Revelation(Jesus) says that Babylon has all the blood of the prophets etc etc. and there is no possible way in your mind you can connect those two?

Also what do you mean "God will deal with Israel again"...if He were to allow the Jewish system to be re-instituted(by that I mean, look at it as He used to...because they can re-institute it if they want to) it would go against everything He did in Jesus Christ. He is THE sacrifice that is worthy. He is THE Lamb that brought redemption to you and I. If He annoints any kind of ritualistic offering again in any Temple of God He goes against Himself which we both know can't happen.

Now I do agree God is dealing with Israel, but I don't believe He ever STOPPED. Israel, the real Israel, continued on after Jesus which one can be a part of not by circumcision of the flesh, but of the spirit. Which includes you and I and anyone else that is born again. The N.T. discusses this metamorphises(sp) time and time again.
 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
Originally posted by Mandy


How is it impossible, when Revelation makes it clear?

Since I reject the whole premise of "pre-trib rapture" (and also the whole premise that Revelation is a "roadmap of history" or a "blueprint of the future"), I'm not the one to ask.

Ask, instead, one of your radical dispensationalist friends who disagrees with LaHaye's position concerning post-rapture salvation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mike Beidler

Evolutionary Creationist
May 31, 2002
90
0
Manama, Kingdom of Bahrain
Visit site
✟7,786.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As I continue to read through the Bible in a year, I've come to the prophet Amos.  Interesting things here, from a preterist perspective.

Amos 1:2 -- "Amos said: 'The LORD comes roaring out of Zion; from Jerusalem he comes bellowing!  The shepherds' pastures wilt; the summit of Carmel withers.'"

In context, the LORD is coming in judgment against Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, Moab, and ultimately Judah and Israel. Interestingly enough, all of the judgments contained in Amos 1-2 were fulfilled in the past.  Of this there is no dispute between eschatological camps.

But here's the kicker: the LORD is said to "come" and his "coming" results in pastures wilting and the mountaintop withering.  Is there any historical record of these things actually happening, or are we to assume that the language is exaggerative and metaphorical?  What are we to think of this "coming" language?  Can we apply the same hermenuetical principle to Christ's description of His own coming, which uses similar language?

(Remember, hermenuetical principles should not have to change when going to and from the Old and New Testaments.  The same culture, which was extremely familiar with eschatological language, is involved here.)
 
Upvote 0

Mike Beidler

Evolutionary Creationist
May 31, 2002
90
0
Manama, Kingdom of Bahrain
Visit site
✟7,786.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Another good one:

Amos 5:18 -- "Those who wish for the LORD's day of judgment are as good as dead!  Why do you want the LORD's day of judgment to come?  It will bring darkness, not light."

This is obviously a reference to a "Day of the LORD."  Since the prophecies in Amos were fulfilled before the time of Christ, is it not reasonable that God has "come" many times to many nations?  Is it not reasonable that each "coming" of God is considered a "Day of the LORD"?

From the study notes of the NET Bible (p. 1647):

"The origin of the concept of the LORD's day of judgment is uncertain.  Perhaps it originated in the ancient Near Eastern idea of the sovereign's day of conquest, where a king would boast that he had concluded an entire military campaign in a single day (see D. Stuart, "The Sovereign's Day of Conquest, BASOR 221 [1976]: 159-64).  In the OT the expression is applied to several acts of divine judgment, some historical and others still future (see A. J. Everson, "The Days of Yahwh," JBL 93 [1974]: 329-37).  In the OT the phrase first appears in Amos (assuming that Amos predates Joel and Obadiah), where it seems to refer to a belief in the northern kingdom that God would intervene on Israel's behalf and judge the nation's enemies.  Amos affirms that the LORD's day of judgment is indeed approaching, but he declares that it will be a day of disaster, not deliverance, for Israel."

Amos 6:14 is also interesting in that the literal, physical method by which the "Day of the LORD" is fulfilled is through the use of another nation's armies.
 
Upvote 0

Mike Beidler

Evolutionary Creationist
May 31, 2002
90
0
Manama, Kingdom of Bahrain
Visit site
✟7,786.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Amos 7:2 -- "When they [the locusts] had completely consumed the earth's vegetation, I said, 'Sovereign LORD, forgive Israel!  How can Jacob survive?  He is too weak!"

Does this mention of "earth" encompass the entire world, or is it localized?  If so, what about those passages in the Olivet Discourse and other places where the "earth" is mentioned in the context of the spreading of the Gospel or the mourning of the tribes of the earth?

In the same context as the rest of Amos' prophecies, this is said of the "earth":

Amos 8:8 -- "'Because of this the earth will quake, and all who live in it will mourn.  The whole earth will rise like the River Nile, it will surge upward and then grow calm, like the Nile in Egypt.  In that day,' says the sovereign LORD, 'I will make the sun set at noon, and make the earth dark in the middle of the day.'" 

Note the apparent universality here in reference to the earth and "all," even though the prophecy was local according to the context and biblical history!  Note also the sun darkening!!!  Sound familiar?

Look at this:

Amos 9:5 -- "He touches the earth and it dissolves; all who live on it will mourn."

Wow!  All this poetic, apocalyptic language to describe the simple act of judging the 10 northern tribes of Israel, an accomplished act in history wrought by the armies of Assyria (722 BC) and Babylon (605 BC) ...

I know of no futurist who argues that these prophecies I've mentioned have not yet been fulfilled.  Futurist John Walvoord, in Every Prophecy of the Bible (pp. 290-296), admits that they were fulfilled in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.  Think about this.

Although it's probably coincidence, it's interesting to note that Amos prophesied c. 760 BC.  The acts of judgment against Israel began in 722 BC ... less than 40 years from Amos' predictions ... the length of a biblical generation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.