A Challenge to Futurists

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 23, 2002

In the past 50 years or more there has been a battle for the Bible going on in academic circles. It may surprise us what liberals and skeptics use most to attack the authority of the Scriptures. It is without a doubt non-fulfillment of Biblical prophesy. For example, Bertrand Russell in his book Why I am not a Christian writes:

I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the gospels there one does find some things that do not seem very wise. For one thing, He certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all people who were living at the time. There are a great many texts to prove that. He believed that His coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it is the basis of a good deal of his moral teaching.

RC. Sproul made this comment on the matter in his book The Last Days According to Jesus,

The skeptism expressed by Russell on these matters is by no means limited to him, but are the axe ground by a host of higher-critical scholars of the Bible the chief ground for the radical criticism of modern biblical scholarship, which has resulted in a wholesale attack on the trustworthiness of Scripture is the thesis that the Gospels records of Jesus predictions contain glaring errors and gross inaccuracies.

Sproul talks in his book of his seminary days where liberal professors constantly used Biblical texts regarding the return of Christ to prove the bible was in error.

Even our beloved C.S. Lewis said:

Say what you like, we shall be told the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master told them so. He shared, and indeed created their delusion.

The same line of attack against Christianity is used by Jewish skeptics to speak against Christianity. They say that Jesus did not bring the Messianic kingdom in the time frame that the Old Testament prophets predicted. They claim in order to get around Jesus failure to bring the Kingdom of God to earth we have invented the doctrine of the second coming. In other words, Jesus would come back to take care of the things He did not fulfill the first time. However, the Jewish Bible gives no support for the Christian doctrine of a second coming. Consider the following quotes from Jewish writers.

The Jew refused to accept the excuse that the major prophecies concerning the Messiah will only be fulfilled in a "second coming." ( He expects the Messiah to complete his mission in his first attempt.) [The Real Messiah Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973 page 15.]

Since Jesus did not fulfill the most important Messianic prophecies, they expected him to return to complete this task in a "second coming." At first, Christians expected that this (second coming) would come very shortly...in their lifetime. When their prayer was not an answered they began to hope that it would come a thousand years after Jesus death. This was the millennium or thousand years kingdom. Finally after a thousand years passed and Jesus still had not returned, (they postponed his second coming to an indefinite time). We therefore see that the (early Christians were forced to radically alter the Jewish concept of the Messiah in order to explain Jesus failure). This compounded with the pagan influence in the (early church, gave birth to a Messianic concept totally alien to Judaism. [Pinchas Stolper, ed. pages 32, 33}

You will discover that when ever any really strong question [such as why Jesus hasnt fulfilled all Messianic prophecies]..is asked [of the Christians], the (standard answer is that it refers to the second coming). It therefore becomes extremely important to ascertain the validity of this claim. The success of the Christian claim or its failure ( rest to a very large extent on the theory of the second coming).It is clearly an answer born of desperation. [Samuel Levin. You Take Jesus, I will Take God. Los Angeles 1980. Page 15

Muslims use a similar attack against Christianity. They throw scriptures like Matthew 24:29-34, Mark 13:23-30, Matthew 10:22-23, and Matt 16:27-28 in our faces saying that Jesus could not be divine.

The challenge to the futurist viewpoint is simple. How do you answer these charges? These questions are faced by seminary students, missionaries, and evangelists alike. Christians in this hour especially need an answer. What can you give us? The following post was made last Saturday at Christian Forums. It is an example of the kind of attack that is coming against the Bible.

Ozark

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 23, 2002

Post made by Verizon1:

Allah is the name of the Muslim god and according to Islam, the same god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he cannot lie. According to Islam, Jesus was once one of the greatest prophets of God (however we do not hold that view any more).

There have been many false prophets claiming to be God. So why the double standard? Try looking rationally at the Idol Jesus without attachment or pride of your traditions, 'cause he also failed miserably at his end time predictions and his coming back quickly. How can one look at others in haste then not see their own idols failings?

Let's look at what scripture tells us about false prophets: Deut 18:20-22 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' "And it you say in your heart, How shall we know the words which the Lord has not spoken? "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which God has not spoken and that prophet, has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him..
(Jesus was put to death).

The false Prophet is put to death by the council of his tribe and the one they stand up for and do not put to death because he's found righteous, will be the one they anoint with the oil.

Notice if the prophecy, does not come true, then this verse calls the prophet false and is not a spokesman for God. Well since people feel this is true, and God says it's true, and the words openly say this is true even in more verses like (Isa. 30:10, Jer. 5:30-31, 14:14, 23:16, 26, 32-32),

How does proof in scripture that Jesus himself failed as a prophet, all of a sudden become totally ignored?

The Proof is clearly in the writings. Here is one of the most interesting sections since any person who reads this will have a totally new understanding on why Islamic does not believe Jesus is God as opposed to the Christians.

Jesus said in Matthews 10 :23 that he would return before his disciples went through the cities of Israel. That did not happen which makes Jesus speaking as a false prophet here.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:27-28 that he would come in the glory of God with his angels and reward every man cording to his works and before his disciples would die, he would return in the kingdom. Jesus did not come in the glory of God with his angels and reward every before the disciples died. Which makes Jesus a false prophet.

Jesus said to the high priest Caiaphas that (He would see the Son of Man) coming on the clouds of heaven (Matthew 26:62-63) That did not happen so Jesus is a false prophet.

Jesus said in Luke 9:26-27 whoever is ashamed of his words he will be ashamed when He comes in Gods glory with holy angel before some of his disciples standing there died. That did not which makes Jesus a false prophet.

Jesus said in Luke 21:20-22 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies those would be the days of vengeance when all thing would be fulfilled. This did not happen so Jesus is a false prophet.

More false prophecy claims; Jesus disciples told everyone they understood that THEY were living in the "end-times." "Now all these things happened unto them for example: and they are written for our admonition, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME." (I Cor. 10:11 -KJV) "But the END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND..." (I Peter 4:7 -KJV) Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? The disciples were also false prophets.

Matthew 24:31-34? "Truly I say: THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS OCCUR." (well the end didnt happen and Jesus never returned in his generation) Which makes Matthew a false prophet. Dont let the churchs fool you by my reveling of this by saying it is any other generation.

Peter said to the people to save themselves from that generation. (Acts 2 40) Will nothing happen in (that generation) which makes Peter another false prophet.

Paul said in Acts 3:23 that the Prophet Jesus would utterly destroy them from among the people.

Will that did not happen which makes Paul another false prophet.

Stephen said that Jesus of Nazareth would destroy this place (the temple and city) and change the customs (the laws) of Moses delivered to them (Acts 6:13-14) We all know Jesus never returned and destroy the place or changed the law. So Stephen is another false prophet.

Paul said that the (day of Christ was at hand) Romans 13:11 and that did not happen so Paul is a false prophet.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:7 they were eagerly waiting for the revelation of Christ. Well the revelation of Christ never happen so Jesus is a false prophet.

The writer of Hebrews said it would be a little while and Jesus who is coming would not tarry 10:37. This statement makes the writer of Hebrews a false prophet.

James said to the people to establish their hearts for the coming of Jesus is at hand (James 5:8-9) The return of Jesus was (not at hand) which makes James a false prophet.

Peter said the people would give an account to Jesus who was ready to judge the living and the dead. (1 Peter 4:5) Jesus was not ready, or never judged anyone which makes Peter a false prophet.

John spoke for Jesus in Rev 22:7,12: Behold, I (Jesus) come soon. Blessed is he who keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book... I will return soon, and my reward with me, to give to every man according to his deeds. (is 2000 years soon)? John is a false prophet.

NAS Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place... Well nothing shortly took place.
NAS Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. The time was not hear.

LIT Rev 1:19 "Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to occur after these things." Nothing was about to occur.

NAS Rev 3:11 'I am coming quickly... Jesus did not come quickly.

NAS Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place. Nothing shortly took place so the words are not faithful and true.

NAS Rev 22:7 "And behold, I am coming quickly." Jesus did not come quickly. And dont let the churches fool you into believing quickly means 2,000 years.

NAS Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near". The time was not near.

In short, more false prophecy and blunders....Guess the false prophets were under your noses only to be seen when the (one who is right Islam,) arrived to lift the veil of confusion. John said the words of the prophecy about Jesus were near, and at hand. Well the fulfillment of prophecy was not near, and at hand, which makes John the lest of your false Prophets.
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If the disciples lied, and your Jesus lied, and did not keep his word about his soon return how can you believe him when it come to salvation ? And please do not try to tell me, that those who are (Muslim) I dont know how to read your false Bible..

I Guess the followers of these false prophets have to deceive some more people and back pedal on these things to. So now the Church has been saving face on these issues by claims that Jesus has to come back in out time to fulfilled the thing he FAILED to DO! Nowhere does the Bible say the Messiah fails then has to get a second chance coming back to finish the job he FAILED to DO! (This basically is telling the Muslim world that he's the opposite of the Messiah).

They show they always have to lie to back their faith by using more lies to fight the truth revealed, which is in essence that Jesus and his disciples are false prophets according to the words of God (Deut 18:20-22). The New Testament is not the Word of God and Christianity is a false system.

Auntie · Jun 24, 2002

"1st Corinthians 1:17-31
17)For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18)For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19)For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20)Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21)For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22)For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23)But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24)But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25)Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26)For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27)But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28)And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29)That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30)But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31)That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

npetreley · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
The challenge to the futurist viewpoint is simple. How do you answer these charges? These questions are faced by seminary students, missionaries, and evangelists alike. Christians in this hour especially need an answer. What can you give us? The following post was made last Saturday at Christian Forums. It is an example of the kind of attack that is coming against the Bible.

Ozark

How do I answer these charges?

First of all, I've never been called upon to answer them. The topic never comes up. I think that's a shame, because I study prophecy and I like to discuss it. But most people I know don't care about prophecy.

But if I had to answer, I'd answer from scripture: 2 Peter 3

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

What I would NOT do is reinterpret scripture to mean Jesus had already returned just to squelch attacks. Why would I do that? If we're not being attacked, we're probably not telling the truth.

GTX · Jun 24, 2002

Faith, we are always challenged. It is the nature of Satan to make us doubt scripture. Trust the Lord, trust the Word.

verizon1 · Jun 24, 2002

Trust the Lord, trust the Word. What a lie. How can you christians dear say you trust what you believe to be the word of God when Jesus failed to do what he said he would? Jesus said he would return (before his pisciples died) Matthew 16:27-27. By your own words this did not happen which makes your Jesus to (the world a false prophet).

I dear you christians say you believe the word. Jesus as said that the high priest Caiaphas that (HE) would see his return on the clouds of heaven. That did not happen and don't try to tell us we don't know how to read your false Bible. You own Bible calls this Jesus a false prophet if you understand Det. 18.

Jesus did not return when he said so he is a false prophet to the world. How can you believe someone when they make false testimonys which can be proofed with their own words?

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by verizon1
Trust the Lord, trust the Word. What a lie. How can you christians dear say you trust what you believe to be the word of God when Jesus failed to do what he said he would? Jesus said he would return (before his pisciples died) Matthew 16:27-27. By your own words this did not happen which makes your Jesus to (the world a false prophet).

I dear you christians say you believe the word. Jesus as said that the high priest Caiaphas that (HE) would see his return on the clouds of heaven. That did not happen and don't try to tell us we don't know how to read your false Bible. You own Bible calls this Jesus a false prophet if you understand Det. 18.

Jesus did not return when he said so he is a false prophet to the world. How can you believe someone when they make false testimonys which can be proofed with their own words?

verizon1 As I have already stated you have made some very valid points here. The traditional teaching of men, have indeed made Christ appear to be just another false prophet. For almost 2.000 years now here in America we have constantly been told that (we) were living on the threshold of the end of the world and Christ's return which was to be fulfilled in the first century.

The Jews, and other religions, and the secular media have used these same (valid point) to further discredit Christianity as well. These verses have always been used by liberal theologians to attack the inspiration of Scripture.

They too reason that these passages were not fulfilled when they were supposed to be (the first century generation), so Jesus and the NT writers failed in their predictions and were therefore not inspired and false prophets. However these things can and will be answered with the Bible.

I haft to go to work. But I am shore another preterist here can answer (all you questions). Jesus did return when he said he would. I will also get back to about these thing when I come home from word.

You servent in Christ.

Justme · Jun 24, 2002

Hi Verizon1,

Trust the word. What a lie... I can easily see why you come to this conclusion. The first hundred times I read the gospel I kinda thought the same thing.
I use this short form description of the coming of the son of man and the second coming to explain my understanding of this part of the gospel, maybe it will help.
The second coming of Christ occurs at the personal death of each individual. This process began with the 'coming of the son of man' as described in the gospel and that occured within the generation that Jesus talked to in the first century. The 'coming of the son of man' is a spiritual heavenly event, not a physical earthly one.

Justme

Mandy · Jun 24, 2002

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

If there was never to be a physical restoring of the kingdom, why didn't Jesus tell the disciples? Why did He make them think, even after His death and resurrection, that there would indeed be a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel? But I suppose Jesus was speaking spiritually, right? It is quite obvious that Jesus' disciples were speaking of a physical restoration. Read Ezekiel 37.
Preterism makes the Scriptures so symbolic that who can know what is literal or not? God is not the author of confusion and preterism = confusion.

Justme · Jun 24, 2002

Hi Mandy,

Where in those verses did Jesus actually SAY there was any physical earthly Kingdom or, for that matter, where anywhere else does it positively say a physical return? If there is then I have to refine my thinking. If there is I haven't found it yet.

Mandy, I must say here that I am not a preterist promoter. I'm curious what the bible actually says, not what anyone including me, wants it to say.I have said I don't know all that much about preterism. Many of their articles make perfect sense, but if I read some of it right, they also think there is some rejuvination of sun and earth and eventually they get another trip thru the daisies...hogwash. They don't and neither does anybody else.... IMO. Maybe I don't understand this correctly; I'm sure they will straighten me out if I'm wrong.

Justme

davo · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Mandy
If there was never to be a physical restoring of the kingdom, why didn't Jesus tell the disciples?

I read somewhere Jesus saying "my kingdom isn't of this world" -maybe the disciples were out of the room at the time.

Originally posted by Mandy
Why did He make them think, even after His death and resurrection, that there would indeed be a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel?

Well Jesus didn't make them think anything as you suggest. Israel's kingdom was to be restored [as per the scriptures] it just wasn't to be fashioned according to fleshly Israel's fleshly whims. The Kingdom of Israel that was to be saved was the Israel of "faith" -true children of Abraham. And this comprised of the "REMNANT":

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth." [Land] 29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed [remnant], we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah."

Originally posted by Mandy
But I suppose Jesus was speaking spiritually, right? It is quite obvious that Jesus' disciples were speaking of a physical restoration.

The disciples were indeed still in there "fleshly" mindset at this time -hoping, as did the crowd that rushed Jesus to make him their king, for an "earthly" messiah. HOWEVER, not many days thence they were filled with "spiritual power" from on high and THAT'S the last you hear of any "fleshly" talk of fleshly kingdoms.

Originally posted by Mandy
Preterism makes the Scriptures so symbolic that who can know what is literal or not? God is not the author of confusion and preterism = confusion.

And yet inspite of your abhorrance and bewilderment of our "fulfilled message" like insects to a fire you seem to be attracked to the LIGHT -the truth is hard to stay away from, you keep coming back. :clap:

davo

davo · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Justme
...but if I read some of it right, they also think there is some rejuvination of sun and earth and eventually they get another trip thru the daisies...hogwash. They don't and neither does anybody else.... IMO. Maybe I don't understand this correctly; I'm sure they will straighten me out if I'm wrong.

G'day Justme -not sure where you came up with this idea re preterism, but "hogwash" sounds appropriate. [at least for me

davo

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Mandy
Preterism makes the Scriptures so symbolic that who can know what is literal or not? God is not the author of confusion and preterism = confusion.

Preterism is confusing?

29But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Matthew 24:29 through Matthew 24:34 (NASB)

27For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
28Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Matthew 16:27 through Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

62The high priest stood up and said to Him, Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You? 63But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus said* to him, You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 26:62 through Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

11I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Revelation 3:11 (NASB)

Preterism is confusing. Lets see what futurists say!

This generation does not mean the generation Jesus was addressing. It means some generation way way off in the future.

Jesus said that there were people standing before Him who would not die until they saw the kingdom of God come in glory. Either He was not talking to those folks or they are still around today. Take your pick.

Jesus words to the high priest were just to scare him a little. He really had nothing to worry about because Jesus would not come back for 2000+ years.

Near really means 2000+ years.

Quickly really doesnt mean quickly. It means in two millennia or so.

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where God said He was going to do something quickly or soon then waited over a thousand years to do it?

And you say Preterism is confusing? These are just a few of the dozens of passages in the New Testament that say or imply that Jesus was coming back in that generation. You really have to do some amazing mental gymnastics to make futurism fit in with these scriptures. And if you try, you will be the one that is dizzy and confused.

Just saying, oh you just dont have faith is not enough. You need to prove that futurism is correct in light of both the Old and New Testaments. This just cannot be done. That is why dispensational scholars have been losing ground for years to liberals and skeptics, and it is a major reason why at many seminaries young people graduate with less faith than when they began their studies.

Ozark

verizon1 · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

Preterism is confusing?

29But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Matthew 24:29 through Matthew 24:34 (NASB)

27For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
28Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Matthew 16:27 through Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

62The high priest stood up and said to Him, Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You? 63But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God. 64Jesus said* to him, You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 26:62 through Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

11I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Revelation 3:11 (NASB)

Preterism is confusing. Lets see what futurists say!

This generation does not mean the generation Jesus was addressing. It means some generation way way off in the future.

Jesus said that there were people standing before Him who would not die until they saw the kingdom of God come in glory. Either He was not talking to those folks or they are still around today. Take your pick.

Jesus words to the high priest were just to scare him a little. He really had nothing to worry about because Jesus would not come back for 2000+ years.

Near really means 2000+ years.

Quickly really doesnt mean quickly. It means in two millennia or so.

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where God said He was going to do something quickly or soon then waited over a thousand years to do it?

And you say Preterism is confusing? These are just a few of the dozens of passages in the New Testament that say or imply that Jesus was coming back in that generation. You really have to do some amazing mental gymnastics to make futurism fit in with these scriptures. And if you try, you will be the one that is dizzy and confused.

Just saying, oh you just dont have faith is not enough. You need to prove that futurism is correct in light of both the Old and New Testaments. This just cannot be done. That is why dispensational scholars have been losing ground for years to liberals and skeptics, and it is a major reason why at many seminaries young people graduate with less faith than when they began their studies.

Ozark

I appreciate the preterist honesty on these things and for yor honesty in saying there is a big problems. And I look forward to some pretty good arguments. Honestly hadn't heard of "covenant eschatology", or "Preterism" before.

Its time to put the preterist to the test. I have heard all the lies I can stand from the futurist Christians. They seem to think we are some kind of fools who cannot read the Bible.

The second coming of Christ does NOT occur at the personal death of each individual nor was the so called resurrection of Jesus his return, either because Jesus did not come on the clouds of heaven.
What kind of fools do they, think we are? I have head and the lies and back pedaling on these things that I can stand from the so called futurist. And I will not answer any more of your silly back pedaling. Jesus is a false prophet by his own words (Matthew 16:27-28)

My question is to the preterist only I don't have time to answer futurist lies. How was Matt 16:27-28 accomplished in the first century. Please dont try to play me for a fool by saying Jesus is not talking to his disciples. I can read and speak Hebrew and Greek as well. How was this fulfilled. Preterist only.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by verizon1

The second coming of Christ does NOT occur at the personal death of each individual nor was the so called resurrection of Jesus his return, either because Jesus did not come on the clouds of heaven.
What kind of fools do they, think we are? I have head and the lies and back pedaling on these things that I can stand from the so called futurist. And I will not answer any more of your silly back pedaling. Jesus is a false prophet by his own words (Matthew 16:27-28)

My question is to the preterist only I don't have time to answer futurist lies. How was Matt 16:27-28 accomplished in the first century. Please dont try to play me for a fool by saying Jesus is not talking to his disciples. I can read and speak Hebrew and Greek as well. How was this fulfilled. Preterist only.

When I was studying the preterist position, a brother in the Lord tried to alter my thinking by saying that the above verses were fulfilled at the Transfiguration.

Lest first start with what this verse do not mean before we build our foundation on what they do mean. The first attempt to avoid Jesus obvious wording of the passage is offered by the amillennialist interpretation. It goes like this verse 27 is speaking about the end of time and verse 28 is speaking about the establishment of the kingdom on Pentecost.

The second attempt to avoid the power of these words is offered by the preillennial. They say Jesus' prediction was fulfilled in the Transfiguration scene just six days later when Peter, James and John saw Jesus glorified with Moses and Elijah. Here is the dilemma with these views.

If the verse are an undivided unit the amillennialist view is wrong because verse 27 speaks of Jesus coming in Judgment with his angels and that did not happen on Pentecost! And on the other hand, the premillennial doctrine is false since because Jesus did not reward each according to his works at the Transfiguration.

In fact,you are right, Jesus did promise to return in judgment of all men in his generation. Peter tells us Jesus was "ready to judge the living and the dead." 1 Peter 4:5 Peter warned them to be saved from that generation (Acts 2:32-40). Paul is instructing Timothy to "keep the commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Notice Paul did NOT tell Timothy to keep the commandment until he (Timothy) died. He said to keep the commandment until the appearing of Jesus. (1 Timothy 6:14) Paul taught the nearness of the coming of the Lord. James the half brother of Jesus said the coming of the Lord was at hand (James 5:8-9). No games here just plan scripture.

In order to understand the manifestation of Jesus in judgment before his disciples died one must understand the language of Israel's Old Testament prophets. In biblical language "clouds" are symbolic of God's wrath and judgment against the enemies of God's people. David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. clouds also speak of God's divine presence and power. On games here just plan scripture.

The Lord said that He would ride into Egypt on a cloud to punish them: Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt. The idol of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isa. 19: 1). In the above verse. the Lord did NOT literally ride on a cloud. However. Egypt did receive this judgment at the hands of the Assyrians (Isa. 20:1-6) . When God used the means of a nation or people to carry out a judgment. He was said to come on the clouds. No games here just plan scripture.

This apocalyptic language was well known to all in the Jewish and early Christian communities. This language was studied by all the congregation of Israel on the Sabbath in the synagogue. It was spoken in homes and by the rulers of Israel. This is the reason Jesus chose to use apocalyptic language as He described His SOON return to the people of His day. No games here just understanding of the Jewish culture, historical setting, and scripture.

Jesus promised the High Priest. Caiaphas. that he would "see the Son of man... coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:63-65). By this statement Jesus was claiming to be divine, Israel's Messiah, and the Son of God. This is how Israel's prophets had said the Son of Man would come in the clouds of heaven (Dan. 7:13-14). No games here just plan scripture.

Caiaphas knew that the language that Jesus used meant that he, as a ruler of Israel and as the fleshly seed of Abraham who rejected his Messiah, would SEE His return in judgment.

A fleshly concept of Jesus coming on the clouds was contrary to the nature of Caiaphas' understanding of the OT prophets. The Old Testament idea of the "day of the Lord" was that God acted by means of armies or a nation to judge His enemies (Luke 11:29-32, 19:43-44). No games here just plan scripture.

The "day of the Lord" was tumultuous. frightening, and awesome but God did NOT appear visibly. Only the God of Israel could ride the clouds of heaven in judgment (Psa. 104:1-3. Isa. 19:1-3. Joel 2:1-2, Nah. 1-3. Zeph. 1:14-15). This fact was well known to every Jew. No games here just plan scripture.

The inspired apostle John stated that the Jews sought the more to kill Jesus because He was making himself equal to God (Jn 5:18, 8:58). These events of God coming in the clouds of heaven for judgment were contained in the ancient scrolls which comforted the early followers of Christ while then, waited for His return in judgment against their enemies (2Thes. 1:3-8). No games here just plan scripture.

Paul stated that he only said what the prophets and Moses said would take place (Acts 26:21-22). Although futurists today claim that verses such as Acts 1:9-11 predict events in our future. the angels said Jesus would return in the same manner (nature) as He appeared in the Old Testament, that is. in the clouds. David described his deliverance from his enemies in terms which sounded as if the physical universe was destroyed when Jehovah came down from heaven ( 2 Sam. 22) No games here just plan scripture.

The "day of the Lord" in the Old Covenant did not destroy planet earth, nor did it end time forever, nor would it do so under the New Covenant (compare Isa. 45:17 and Eph. 3:21). No games here just plan scripture.

In the Old Covenant. governments and nations were destroyed during the "day of the Lord" because they were enemies of God or because they came up against His chosen people.

In the first century in 70 A.D.. the Jewish world was destroyed during the "day of the Lord" because of their inability to accept the prophets of God and the Son of God (Matt.23:34-36). Jesus invisibly and spiritually came on the clouds of heaven to judge His enemies and establish His everlasting kingdom. No games here just a understanding of the scripture.

GTX · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by verizon1

I appreciate the preterist honesty on these things and for yor honesty in saying there is a big problems. And I look forward to some pretty good arguments. Honestly hadn't heard of "covenant eschatology", or "Preterism" before.

Its time to put the preterist to the test. I have heard all the lies I can stand from the futurist Christians. They seem to think we are some kind of fools who cannot read the Bible.

The second coming of Christ does NOT occur at the personal death of each individual nor was the so called resurrection of Jesus his return, either because Jesus did not come on the clouds of heaven.
What kind of fools do they, think we are? I have head and the lies and back pedaling on these things that I can stand from the so called futurist. And I will not answer any more of your silly back pedaling. Jesus is a false prophet by his own words (Matthew 16:27-28)

My question is to the preterist only I don't have time to answer futurist lies. How was Matt 16:27-28 accomplished in the first century. Please dont try to play me for a fool by saying Jesus is not talking to his disciples. I can read and speak Hebrew and Greek as well. How was this fulfilled. Preterist only.

You write here preterist only? You are clearly putting down Jesus, calling him a false prophet.

Preterist or not, who asked you? Where did you come from, and why are you attacking? Calling futurists fools and calling Jesus a false prophet is against the rules.

You aren't going to last long with this attitude.

Preterists, don't answer him, we preterists and futurists at least agree on our salvation, to let this guy in to blespheme our Lord is not cool!

Do you think he is going to be saved by your view? I doubt it.

eldermike · Jun 24, 2002

I have noticed that people defending a lost position use more words than those defending the truth. My kids used that same trick. I have a stupid question. What denomination are pretrist? And I also have a beef. The word "futurist". I am discovering more and more about me these days. These handles are just too much, please just call me a Christian.

Blessings

bouncer · Jun 24, 2002

On the face of it, as of now, I am also willing to admit there is a problem, since I do not know how to explain what Jesus meant when he said he would return before the end of 'this' generation...

Would some preterist or Mr.Verizon who knows greek and hebrew, please point out the actual hebrew or greek word that was used instead of generation and also tell us its literal translation ?

in one of the Bible versions, the word 'race' has been used instead....

in this instance the actual Hebrew version would be helpful.

thanks.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
I have noticed that people defending a lost position use more words than those defending the truth. My kids used that same trick. I have a stupid question. What denomination are pretrist? And I also have a beef. The word "futurist". I am discovering more and more about me these days. These handles are just too much, please just call me a Christian.

Blessings

Preterist are christians we are not a denomination. Verizon1 is a Muslim from another plase on this fourm. He and other Muslim have made some very valid points here about Scripture that must, be address with scripture. Jesus is not a false propher he is the (GOD WHO CANNOT LIE)and we must show that from scripture alone.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by bouncer
On the face of it, as of now, I am also willing to admit there is a problem, since I do not know how to explain what Jesus meant when he said he would return before the end of 'this' generation...

Would some preterist or Mr.Verizon who knows greek and hebrew, please point out the actual hebrew or greek word that was used instead of generation and also tell us its literal translation ?

in one of the Bible versions, the word 'race' has been used instead....

in this instance the actual Hebrew version would be helpful.

thanks.

Hi bouncer :wave:

The word "generation" as used in Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek word "genea," which means, "by implication an age" the period or the persons. This word has the same meaning as the word "generation" found in Luke 11:50-51, that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of THIS GENERATION; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zechariah which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, it shall be required of "THIS GENERATION."

Several other passages in the New Testament where this identical Greek word genea is used, would be (Luke 1:50; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10).

It is unfortunate that some have defined this word "generation" so as to mean "race," and try to make Jesus say that all these things would happen before the "race" of Jews had passed away. Jesus was not talking about any "race" of Jews. The word "generation" as used in this verse does not mean "kind, nation, offspring, stock." The Greek word is genea, meaning by implication an age (the period or the persons).

If the verse meant "kind, nation, offspring, stock," then it would have had the Greek word "genos," but it did not: the word is "genea." An example of the use of the word "genos" (which is not used in Matthew 24:34) would be 1 Peter 2:9, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation...." Here it is evident that this is the word that means "king, nation, offspring, stock."

Another Greek word for "generation" is "gennema" and means "offspring - fruit." This particular word is found in Matthew 23:33, where Jesus said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?'' But this word is also not the one that is used in Matthew 24:34. A study of the passages where Jesus used this word (genea/generation) shows that Jesus generally used the word in connection with the people who were right then and there in His own time. The places in Matthew where this exact word is used are: Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:23, 36; 24:34. Look them up and see for yourself.

Look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means "race" in any other context. Here are all the references in the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time.

It always refers to Jesus' contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can overlook such a transparent error, but we should remember that this is serious. We are dealing with the Word of the living God.

One of the best verses that I can think of which clearly shows the true meaning of this word "generation/genea" as used in Matthew 24:34, is Matthew 1:17. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." Here are 42 generations.

If "race" for example were meant by this word, this passage means there were 42 races of Israel, all of whom came from Abraham's blood. This passage ought to really settle the matter as to the meaning of the word.

I hope this helps.

You servent in Christ.

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