What if the whole Bible were only one dispensation?

prisonchaplain · Mar 14, 2006

It might look like this:

Roughly 40 authors from vastly different backgrounds, in three different languages, write 66 books in the course of 1500 years. What kind of theological mess should be expected to come out of that??? And yet, instead we find an incredible flow. Below is a single lesson, usuing the panorama of the Holy Bible (KJV).

1. God creates the world, and humans, thus demonstrating his ultimate power and goodness. Genesis 1:1, 27, 31

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ... 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. ... 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2. As with any good story, once the beautiful setting is displayed, a problem arises. God's creation choses rebellion over obedience, and sickness and death enter the world. Genesis 3:3-6, 16-17, 19

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ... 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; ... 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3. Sin accelerates, and God finally repents of ever making the world. Yet, there is one righteous man to be found. Through Noah, humanity is saved. Genesis 6:5-8, 13-14, 22; 7:23

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ... 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. ... 22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. CHAPTER 7 ... 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

4. Eventually God expands his favor from one man to what would become a nation. Through the history of Israel, we learn the fruits of obeying God, disobeying God, and of repenting when convicted of our sin against God.

a. We learn the fruit of obeying God from Abram's encounter. Genesis 12:1-2, 4

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: ... 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

b. We learn the fruit of disobeying God from Israel's example. Judges 2:10-15

10And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. 11And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: 12And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. 13And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. 14And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. 15Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.

c. We learn the fruit of repentence towards God, again from Isreal. 2 Chronicles 30:6-9, 26-31:1

6So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. 7And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. 8Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. 9For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. ... 26So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel there was not the like in Jerusalem. 27Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. CHAPTER 31 ... 1Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.

5. As wonderful as the hope of repentence is, the cycle of obedience, disobedience, punishment, repentence, and back to obedience repeats itself far too often in Old Testament history. Additionally, Abram was promised that through him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Thus, the Savior comes. John 1:29

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

6. The various letters of the apostles to the churches and their leaders teach many practical truths. Three stand out as overachring: God's offer of forgiveness, the call to holiness, and the mission of spreading faith in Jesus.

a. God's offer of forgiveness. 1 John 1:8-9

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

b. The call of Christians to holiness. Glations 5:22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

c. The mission of spreading faith in Jesus. Acts 1:8; 2:41

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. CHAPTER 2 ... 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

7. The conclusion of the matter; Satan and those who rebel against God suffer. God's people receive rewards.

a. Eternal judgement. Revelation 20:13-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

b. Eternal joy with God. Revelation 21:3-4

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

May God forgive us of our sins and empower us to live His way!

Dispy · Mar 14, 2006

prisonchaplain said:
It might look like this:

Roughly 40 authors from vastly different backgrounds, in three different languages, write 66 books in the course of 1500 years. What kind of theological mess should be expected to come out of that??? And yet, instead we find an incredible flow. Below is a single lesson, usuing the panorama of the Holy Bible (KJV).

1. God creates the world, and humans, thus demonstrating his ultimate power and goodness. Genesis 1:1, 27, 31

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ... 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. ... 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2. As with any good story, once the beautiful setting is displayed, a problem arises. God's creation choses rebellion over obedience, and sickness and death enter the world. Genesis 3:3-6, 16-17, 19

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ... 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; ... 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3. Sin accelerates, and God finally repents of ever making the world. Yet, there is one righteous man to be found. Through Noah, humanity is saved. Genesis 6:5-8, 13-14, 22; 7:23

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ... 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. ... 22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. CHAPTER 7 ... 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

4. Eventually God expands his favor from one man to what would become a nation. Through the history of Israel, we learn the fruits of obeying God, disobeying God, and of repenting when convicted of our sin against God.

a. We learn the fruit of obeying God from Abram's encounter. Genesis 12:1-2, 4

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: ... 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

b. We learn the fruit of disobeying God from Israel's example. Judges 2:10-15

10And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. 11And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: 12And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. 13And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. 14And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. 15Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.

c. We learn the fruit of repentence towards God, again from Isreal. 2 Chronicles 30:6-9, 26-31:1

6So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. 7And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. 8Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. 9For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. ... 26So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel there was not the like in Jerusalem. 27Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. CHAPTER 31 ... 1Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.

5. As wonderful as the hope of repentence is, the cycle of obedience, disobedience, punishment, repentence, and back to obedience repeats itself far too often in Old Testament history. Additionally, Abram was promised that through him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Thus, the Savior comes. John 1:29

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

6. The various letters of the apostles to the churches and their leaders teach many practical truths. Three stand out as overachring: God's offer of forgiveness, the call to holiness, and the mission of spreading faith in Jesus.

a. God's offer of forgiveness. 1 John 1:8-9

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

b. The call of Christians to holiness. Glations 5:22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

c. The mission of spreading faith in Jesus. Acts 1:8; 2:41

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. CHAPTER 2 ... 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

7. The conclusion of the matter; Satan and those who rebel against God suffer. God's people receive rewards.

a. Eternal judgement. Revelation 20:13-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

b. Eternal joy with God. Revelation 21:3-4

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

May God forgive us of our sins and empower us to live His way!

When God created the universe, there was no sin in the world. Therefore, the 1st dispensation was the dispensation of innocense. Therefore, Lucifer would not have tried to usurp God position in heaven, and there would have been no need for the Cross of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

TheScottsMen · Mar 14, 2006

prisonchaplain said:
It might look like this:

Roughly 40 authors from vastly different backgrounds, in three different languages, write 66 books in the course of 1500 years. What kind of theological mess should be expected to come out of that??? And yet, instead we find an incredible flow. Below is a single lesson, usuing the panorama of the Holy Bible (KJV).

1. God creates the world, and humans, thus demonstrating his ultimate power and goodness. Genesis 1:1, 27, 31

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ... 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. ... 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2. As with any good story, once the beautiful setting is displayed, a problem arises. God's creation choses rebellion over obedience, and sickness and death enter the world. Genesis 3:3-6, 16-17, 19

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. ... 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; ... 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

3. Sin accelerates, and God finally repents of ever making the world. Yet, there is one righteous man to be found. Through Noah, humanity is saved. Genesis 6:5-8, 13-14, 22; 7:23

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ... 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. ... 22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. CHAPTER 7 ... 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

4. Eventually God expands his favor from one man to what would become a nation. Through the history of Israel, we learn the fruits of obeying God, disobeying God, and of repenting when convicted of our sin against God.

a. We learn the fruit of obeying God from Abram's encounter. Genesis 12:1-2, 4

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: ... 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

b. We learn the fruit of disobeying God from Israel's example. Judges 2:10-15

10And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. 11And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: 12And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. 13And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. 14And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. 15Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.

c. We learn the fruit of repentence towards God, again from Isreal. 2 Chronicles 30:6-9, 26-31:1

6So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. 7And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. 8Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. 9For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. ... 26So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel there was not the like in Jerusalem. 27Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. CHAPTER 31 ... 1Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.

5. As wonderful as the hope of repentence is, the cycle of obedience, disobedience, punishment, repentence, and back to obedience repeats itself far too often in Old Testament history. Additionally, Abram was promised that through him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Thus, the Savior comes. John 1:29

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

6. The various letters of the apostles to the churches and their leaders teach many practical truths. Three stand out as overachring: God's offer of forgiveness, the call to holiness, and the mission of spreading faith in Jesus.

a. God's offer of forgiveness. 1 John 1:8-9

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

b. The call of Christians to holiness. Glations 5:22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

c. The mission of spreading faith in Jesus. Acts 1:8; 2:41

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. CHAPTER 2 ... 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

7. The conclusion of the matter; Satan and those who rebel against God suffer. God's people receive rewards.

a. Eternal judgement. Revelation 20:13-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

b. Eternal joy with God. Revelation 21:3-4

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

May God forgive us of our sins and empower us to live His way!

Even non-dispensationalist recognize at least two dispensations in scripture; New and Old Convent.

TubaFour · Mar 14, 2006

The trouble with dispensationalism is not how many dispensations there may be. It's what a dispensation means. If you ask Scofield:

[SIZE=-1]A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

[/SIZE]Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation. So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:
[SIZE=-1]
As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"[/SIZE]

So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

These premises are false. Obedience was never a condition of salvation, but faith in Jesus Christ has always been. And as a side note, that faith/salvation is not of our own, it the gift of God so no one may boast.

From these basic definitions, an entire edifice is erected to dispensationalism. It's foundation however is not only faulty, it fundamentally misunderstands the revelation of God in Christ.

From this dispensationalism an ethno-centric theology emerges. One that makes divisions not called for in the scriptures, one that is typically man-centered in its theology (arminian), and one that misses the blessings of God in Christ to whomever receives Him. Israel becomes the focus of scripture, whereas Christ is the focus of every page in the bible. Starting with Genesis 3:15.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Blessings,

aL

Dispy · Mar 14, 2006

TheScottsMen said:
Even non-dispensationalist recognize at least two dispensations in scripture; New and Old Convent.

The New and Old Covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The Old covenant was with Israel long after Adam and Eve. Were then under the Old Covenant of Israel?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

eph3Nine · Mar 14, 2006

TubaFour said:
The trouble with dispensationalism is not how many dispensations there may be. It's what a dispensation means. If you ask Scofield:

[SIZE=-1]A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some special revelation of the will of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Dispensation= Ordering, Administration, Management: Specific: a divine ordering and administration of world affairs (2) a system of principles, promises, and rules divinely ordaingede and administered (3) a perioid of history during which a particular divine revelation has predominated in the affairs of mankind.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Think of it as you would YOUR house rules. Or a pharmacist DISPENSING what is needed according to the prescribed need. God dispenses what is needed according to the group being addressed. [/SIZE]

You are trying to make this a factor of obedience or faith.
Israel CHOSE a law program over merely trusting God in his grace. See Leviticus 26...they thought they could OBEY everything He told them to do!!! What ARROGANCE and PRIDE!!! Here God is wanting to deal with them in mercy and they want LAWS to obey so they can show off "what mighty wonderful and humble folk they really ARE...." LOL

The PURPOSE of the law was NEVER to make a man righteous through "obedience."

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[SIZE=-1]PLEASE NOTE that it is by the faith/or faithfulness OF JESUS Christ that we are saved, not by our faithfulness. It is what HE DID that saved us all, and NOT by anything we DO or dont do.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation.

You are running ahead of yourself here. A Dispensation is as stated above. The willingness of mankind to acknowledge Gods directives are under the heading of BELIEVING. It is also under the heading of STUDY, as this is the ONLY means by which a person will SEE clearly the DIFFERENCES in the directives given to Israel and the instructions given to we, the Body of Christ. God doesnt give TESTS.

So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:
[SIZE=-1]
As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]

When you BEGIN with a wrong premise you come to a wrong conclusion.

The Dispensation of Grace begins with Pauls Salvation on the Road to Damascus. That is why it was called a MYSTERY , Hid in God, KEPT SECRET since the world began.

The "demonstration of faith" that was required of the NATION ISRAEL was spelled out for them in the prophetic books. They KNEW what the criteria was, they knew that they were blessed if they demonstrated their trust in Him by doing what was required and cursed if they didnt. This is what THEY WANTED! It wasnt what God had in mind for them, I can tell ya that from simple study. He wanted to deal with them in GRACE and MERCY and for them to KNOW that they could NEVER achieve a right standing with Him through "obedience to the law" as Gods standards were 100% or FAIL. They knew that and still thot they could actually DO IT![/SIZE]

So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

You are trying, rather unsuccessfully, to tell us what YOU "THINK"

WE believe, and are not being accurate in the least little bit. :sigh:

These premises are false. Obedience was never a condition of salvation, but faith in Jesus Christ has always been. And as a side note, that faith/salvation is not of our own, it the gift of God so no one may boast.

From these basic definitions, an entire edifice is erected to dispensationalism. It's foundation however is not only faulty, it fundamentally misunderstands the revelation of God in Christ.

Under Israels Program, which she WANTED, there was a CONDITION, always. IF you do this, then I will do that. They demonstrated their belief in Him by DOING what HE told THEM to do.

From this dispensationalism an ethno-centric theology emerges. One that makes divisions not called for in the scriptures, one that is typically man-centered in its theology (arminian), and one that misses the blessings of God in Christ to whomever receives Him. Israel becomes the focus of scripture, whereas Christ is the focus of every page in the bible. Starting with Genesis 3:15.

Again, another misrepresentation of what we teach and believe. We make ONLY the divisions God makes. Between Israels LAW program, and OUR GRACE program.

It is hardly man centered, as the RISEN Christ is the focus of our program. Christ on EARTH, in the flesh, is Israels focus. WE are told to know no man according to the flesh, just as we didnt know JESUS that way either. We know Him in the SPIRIT, as our RISEN HEAD and Savior.

2 Corinthians 1:20

Click to expand...

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

In Luke, Christ was speaking to the disciples and he had to open their eyes to see what was happening. This isnt addresssed to us. Yanking it OUT of context certainly doesnt prove anything.

I dont even see your point with the other verse yanked out of context, but at least you are in the right set of instructions. All the promises of God do find their YES in Him. But the promises made to Israel ARENT OURS!!!!

WE HAVE PROMISES MADE TO US THAT ARE UNIQUE. To NOT know what they are or where they are found will put one in the company of those who will, in the end, be ASHAMED workmen, having NOT studied the word rightly divided.

Dispy · Mar 14, 2006

TubaFour said:
The trouble with dispensationalism is not how many dispensations there may be. It's what a dispensation means. If you ask Scofield:

[SIZE=-1]A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

[/SIZE]Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation. So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:
[SIZE=-1]
As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"[/SIZE]

Are you trying to paint all dispensationalist with the same brush? I do have problems with Scofield's definition of a dispensation.

The dispensation of grace, IMHO, didn't start until after the setting aside of the nation of Israel, and with the raising up of Saul/Paul, who was commissioned to usher in this dispensation of grace.

TubaFour said:
So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

These premises are false. Obedience was never a condition of salvation, but faith in Jesus Christ has always been. And as a side note, that faith/salvation is not of our own, it the gift of God so no one may boast.

From these basic definitions, an entire edifice is erected to dispensationalism. It's foundation however is not only faulty, it fundamentally misunderstands the revelation of God in Christ.

From this dispensationalism an ethno-centric theology emerges. One that makes divisions not called for in the scriptures, one that is typically man-centered in its theology (arminian), and one that misses the blessings of God in Christ to whomever receives Him. Israel becomes the focus of scripture, whereas Christ is the focus of every page in the bible. Starting with Genesis 3:15.

It is apparent that you need a reading comprehension course. I have explained to you the terms of salvation/justification under the Law, and the terms of salvation/justification under Grace. You apparently cannot comprehend what I wrote. You are either trying to create a straw-dummy, or lead us down a different rabbit trail.

TubaFour}[COLOR=Blue said:
2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.[/COLOR]

Luke 24
27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Don't have a problem with your posting 1 Corinthians 1:20, however, your quoting Luke 24:27 needs some explanation.

Luke 24:27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

BOY talk about having Bible knowledge, the disciples had it all. BUT, they had no knowledge about the Chruch, the Body of Christ, and the mystery that was revealed to the Apostle Paul. It was still a secret. It was not given to them to complete the Scriptures either. That was given to Paul.

Colossians 1:25, 26 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (make full/complete) the word of God; the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but is now made manifest to his saints." (The word even in verse 26 is not in the original, therefore I left it out.)

So, in Luke 24, the disciples had all the knowledge of the OT Scriptures (they were all that was available) but never knew about this dispensation of grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

eph3Nine · Mar 14, 2006

Aaaaaaamen, Dispy.

TubaFour · Mar 14, 2006

Dispy,

Let's not get personal. OK? Your comment about me needing a reading comprehension course was unnecessary -- doesn't add a whit of persuasion to your post, and in fact detracts from your position.

Listen, you can repeat what you believe ad nauseum, it doesn't make it so. Nor does it convince me that your system doesn't do what I contend it does.

I fully understand what you wrote Dispy. In fact, it appears you may not fully grasp the implications of your system.

We haven't even scratched the surface of dispensationlism and we're at huge odds already. We haven't gotten past the definition of a dispensation in the other thread. We can't even agree to the basics Dispy. Didn't even get into the literal hemeneutic issue, the end times, the basic understanding of law and grace (I use those terms differently than you do), God's sovereign election.

Is there any use talking? I am afraid not!!

Blessings,

aL

TubaFour · Mar 14, 2006

I dont even see your point with the other verse yanked out of context, but at least you are in the right set of instructions. All the promises of God do find their YES in Him. But the promises made to Israel ARENT OURS!!!!

Another perfect example of an assertion without any biblical basis. If you took your literal hermeneutic seriously you'd believe exactly what Paul says that ALL PROMISES are fulfilled in Christ. He doesn't make a distinction and neither should you!!!!

aL

eph3Nine · Mar 14, 2006

LOL....God KEEPS all His promises. But if the promises He made were NOT made to US, then you can try and hold Him to the fulfulling of them til the cows come home and its JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

Thats why we are told to rightly divide. So that we arent stealing promises made to Israel and applying them to ourselves. How do you think the zillion and one denominations got started???? By MISUNDERSTANDING and MIS aPPROPRIATING promises made to another audience in another dispensation to ourselves today.

Poor poor bible study methods and it leads only to ERROR and confusion.

prisonchaplain · Mar 15, 2006

So, assuming we're all Christian brothers and sisters, and side-stepping the dispensation discussion for a bit, how'd you like my "Bible in One Lesson" homily? :preach:

Dispy · Mar 15, 2006

TubaFour said:
Dispy,

Let's not get personal. OK? Your comment about me needing a reading comprehension course was unnecessary -- doesn't add a whit of persuasion to your post, and in fact detracts from your position.

The reason I made that statement and deemed it necessary was because you made the following erroneous statemnt as to what I believe about salvation under the Law. You stated: So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

Don't recall ever saying such a thing. Have I not said that salvation/justification was on the basis of FAITH, in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history? Also, have I not said that under the Law deed/works required by the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses were to be done by FAITH.that the deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated their FAITH?

Do you understand now why I made that statement. I will not apologize from making such a statement, and as long as you are going to take what I say completely out of context, I will repeat the same statement. Take it as a personal attack if you wish. Attributing erroneous beliefs to me can also be considered a personal attack to what I actually do believe. I am not personally offended by it, because I consider the source as to why those kind of statments are made. I'm used to it.

TubaFour said:
Listen, you can repeat what you believe ad nauseum, it doesn't make it so. Nor does it convince me that your system doesn't do what I contend it does.

I fully understand what you wrote Dispy. In fact, it appears you may not fully grasp the implications of your system.

I cut my teeth on your Reformed Calvinistic doctrine. At school, every Monday morning we were given a test on our daily Bible classes. There would be 12 questions, and we only required to answer 10 of our choosing. Well, I would always answer all 12 questions, and it was a very rare occasion when I didn't get 100% on my tests. In fact, I don't ever recall not getting 100%. I was tested on the Calvinist doctrine which was being taught.

Being we were instructed to read our Bible ever night, which I did, I found that what I was being taught conflicted with many of the things I was reading in the Bible. Our pastor, who had a Dr of Divinity Degree and was our catachism teacher, could not reconcile the questions I had about the conflicts I saw between Law and Grace. He, like my teachers, could only give church doctrine answers that never answered my quesition.

In order to learn, I found it very helpful to ask questions. The primary reason I have asked you the questions that I did is because I wanted you to go to you Bible for answers. IMHO, you knew that you could not answer those questions from the Bible, therefore you chose to "duck"/"dodge" them. I'm not buying your excuses for not answering them. Haven't I responded to just about every thing you posted. If I haven't responded to something, it was not intentional. Can't you do the same for me? Oops that is another question.

Yes, you have responded to the article I recommended you read, and I appreciate that. Haven't I also responded to everthing you posted? Oops, another question.

TubaFour said:
We haven't even scratched the surface of dispensationlism and we're at huge odds already. We haven't gotten past the definition of a dispensation in the other thread. We can't even agree to the basics Dispy. Didn't even get into the literal hemeneutic issue, the end times, the basic understanding of law and grace (I use those terms differently than you do), God's sovereign election.

Is there any use talking? I am afraid not!!

Blessings,

aL

Don't recall you ever giving me your definition of dispensationalism. All I really know is that you believe it is unBiblical. It appears to me that you think dispensationalism is defined by what Scofiled says. Also, it appears that you are trying to paint all dispensationalists with the same brush.

Dispensationalism through out human history had/has to do with stewardship and "house Laws." Were Adam and Eve good stewards in tending the Garden of Eden? (Oops another question.) Do you think they might have done a better job giving by living according to their conscinece? (Can't seem to get away from those questions.) I know I asked this question before, but never got an answer, but do you think that Adam and Eve were saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ? Don't recall ever reading anything about that in the Bible. In fact, I don't recall anyone, prior to Paul who was saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ. Never learned that in a Calvinistic Christian School either. Well, maybe you can give me some of you vast Biblical Calvinistic knowledge and show me where they were; somewhere before it was revealed to Paul.

Believe I have already have shown you from Romans 3:25, that they were that their sins were forgiven on the basis of Christ shed blood on the Cross. Not that they personally placed their faith in it. To have their sins covered (atoned) prior to Paul's revelation, they still had to offer animal sacrifices.

If it is your desire to discontinue our dialogue, that is strickly up to you. I have no ill feeling about you, only about some of the thing say/don't answer, and I don't take them personally.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Dispy · Mar 15, 2006

prisonchaplain said:
So, assuming we're all Christian brothers and sisters, and side-stepping the dispensation discussion for a bit, how'd you like my "Bible in One Lesson" homily?

I haven't found a thread titled "Bible in One Lesson," but if you were referring to the one titled " What if the whole Bible were only one dispensation?" then I find more then one dispensation in your article.

If you did start a thread titled "Bible in One Lesson", clue me in as to where it is. I'd love to read it and comment on it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

TubaFour · Mar 15, 2006

Dispy said:
The reason I made that statement and deemed it necessary was because you made the following erroneous statemnt as to what I believe about salvation under the Law. You stated: So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

Dispy, I didn't know your name was Cyrus Scofield!! Did I attribute that statement to you?

Don't recall ever saying such a thing. Have I not said that salvation/justification was on the basis of FAITH, in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history? Also, have I not said that under the Law deed/works required by the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses were to be done by FAITH.that the deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated their FAITH?

Dispy, you said it on more than one occasion, that this faith was NOT faith in Christ. Do you want me to quote you this time?

Do you understand now why I made that statement. I will not apologize from making such a statement, and as long as you are going to take what I say completely out of context, I will repeat the same statement. Take it as a personal attack if you wish. Attributing erroneous beliefs to me can also be considered a personal attack to what I actually do believe. I am not personally offended by it, because I consider the source as to why those kind of statments are made. I'm used to it.

Amazing!! Dispy, if I attributed an erroneous statement to YOU, you'd have a leg to stand on. But your righteous indignation is not only misplaced, it appears directed at the wrong person. You might want to take up your issues with Scofield and the other dispensationalists.

I cut my teeth on your Reformed Calvinistic doctrine. At school, every Monday morning we were given a test on our daily Bible classes. There would be 12 questions, and we only required to answer 10 of our choosing. Well, I would always answer all 12 questions, and it was a very rare occasion when I didn't get 100% on my tests. In fact, I don't ever recall not getting 100%. I was tested on the Calvinist doctrine which was being taught.

Being we were instructed to read our Bible ever night, which I did, I found that what I was being taught conflicted with many of the things I was reading in the Bible. Our pastor, who had a Dr of Divinity Degree and was our catachism teacher, could not reconcile the questions I had about the conflicts I saw between Law and Grace. He, like my teachers, could only give church doctrine answers that never answered my quesition.

In order to learn, I found it very helpful to ask questions. The primary reason I have asked you the questions that I did is because I wanted you to go to you Bible for answers. IMHO, you knew that you could not answer those questions from the Bible, therefore you chose to "duck"/"dodge" them. I'm not buying your excuses for not answering them. Haven't I responded to just about every thing you posted. If I haven't responded to something, it was not intentional. Can't you do the same for me? Oops that is another question.

Dispy, I am impressed with your studiousness. I am also saddened that you left orthodox truth for extreme dispensationalism. But, be that as it may.

I am not dodging your questions Dispy, I am making wise use of my very limited time. If you recall, I was reluctant to even get into this debate with you and I cited limited time as my reason. Now that I have, I am accused of dodging your questions. Ok! Fine!

Yes, you have responded to the article I recommended you read, and I appreciate that. Haven't I also responded to everthing you posted? Oops, another question.

I never accused you of not having enough time to respond.

Don't recall you ever giving me your definition of dispensationalism.

I don't have a definition of dispensationalism. I don't need one!

All I really know is that you believe it is unBiblical. It appears to me that you think dispensationalism is defined by what Scofiled says. Also, it appears that you are trying to paint all dispensationalists with the same brush.

Now, you're dodging everything I said and my response to Tracy Plessnger's article and my responses to your responses. Nonetheless, if you disagree with Scofield, you're in the minority. He's one of the founders of the system and me citing him is what it is. If you disagree with him, that's your prerogative. But, that does't make it wrong for me to cite him.

Dispensationalism through out human history had/has to do with stewardship and "house Laws." Were Adam and Eve good stewards in tending the Garden of Eden? (Oops another question.) Do you think they might have done a better job giving by living according to their conscinece? (Can't seem to get away from those questions.) I know I asked this question before, but never got an answer, but do you think that Adam and Eve were saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ? Don't recall ever reading anything about that in the Bible. In fact, I don't recall anyone, prior to Paul who was saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ. Never learned that in a Calvinistic Christian School either. Well, maybe you can give me some of you vast Biblical Calvinistic knowledge and show me where they were; somewhere before it was revealed to Paul.

We're getting sarcastic Dispy. I know you may not be able to help it, but that's just too bad. I was having a decent time with our conversations, I suppose all good things must come to an end.

Believe I have already have shown you from Romans 3:25, that they were that their sins were forgiven on the basis of Christ shed blood on the Cross. Not that they personally placed their faith in it. To have their sins covered (atoned) prior to Paul's revelation, they still had to offer animal sacrifices.

What you give with the right hand you take with the left.

If it is your desire to discontinue our dialogue, that is strickly up to you. I have no ill feeling about you, only about some of the thing say/don't answer, and I don't take them personally.

What I have no desire to do is waste my time responding to personal remarks. If that's what you devolve into I will not have any dialogue. Period. It's unproductive and a bad witness.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

You too!

aL

eph3Nine · Mar 15, 2006

prisonchaplain said:
So, assuming we're all Christian brothers and sisters, and side-stepping the dispensation discussion for a bit, how'd you like my "Bible in One Lesson" homily?

I would have to say that ALL the bible is for our LEARNING, but NOT all the bible is for our OBEDIENCE.

Unless we understand that FACT, we will be doing silly things like building arks, and sacrificing animals and cutting off foreskins and selling all we have and giving it to others, and demanding that God heal people and raise them from the dead, and all kinds of things not included in OUR instructions.

God never intended His book to be read, studied OR understood in such a manner. Thats why He tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto HIM, so that we dont have to be ashamed in presenting truth NOT GIVEN for our obedience, and thereby NOT rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH. All scipture is TRUE and good, but Gods methods of dealing with mankind HAVE changed. We need to KNOW what He is doing today so that we can cooperate with Him IN IT. :wave:

Its VERY IMPORTANT...as our rewards will be based on how we handled the PRESENT information given us by our apostle, Paul.

Dispy · Mar 15, 2006

Dispy said:
The reason I made that statement and deemed it necessary was because you made the following erroneous statemnt as to what I believe about salvation under the Law. You stated: So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace.

TubaFour said:
Dispy, I didn't know your name was Cyrus Scofield!! Did I attribute that statement to you?

The statement that I read by you that stated what Dr. Scofield wrote was: A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

You remarked: Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation. So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:

As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"

Therefore, I did not attribute that statement to Scofield. If I recaall correctly, lit was just you and I discussing dispensationalism. That is why I attributed the statement in question to me.

Dispy said:
Don't recall ever saying such a thing. Have I not said that salvation/justification was on the basis of FAITH, in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history? Also, have I not said that under the Law deed/works required by the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses were to be done by FAITH. That the deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated their FAITH?

TubaFour said:
Dispy, you said it on more than one occasion, that this faith was NOT faith in Christ. Do you want me to quote you this time?

Please do. Also, show me from the OT Scriptures where the OT saints were saved by faith in Christ.

Dispy said:
Do you understand now why I made that statement. I will not apologize from making such a statement, and as long as you are going to take what I say completely out of context, I will repeat the same statement. Take it as a personal attack if you wish. Attributing erroneous beliefs to me can also be considered a personal attack to what I actually do believe. I am not personally offended by it, because I consider the source as to why those kind of statments are made. I'm used to it.

TubaFour said:
Amazing!! Dispy, if I attributed an erroneous statement to YOU, you'd have a leg to stand on. But your righteous indignation is not only misplaced, it appears directed at the wrong person. You might want to take up your issues with Scofield and the other dispensationalists.

If that statement wasn't directed to me, then I do apologize. Don't recall you ever making that statement about Scofield.

Dispy said:
I cut my teeth on your Reformed Calvinistic doctrine. At school, every Monday morning we were given a test on our daily Bible classes. There would be 12 questions, and we only required to answer 10 of our choosing. Well, I would always answer all 12 questions, and it was a very rare occasion when I didn't get 100% on my tests. In fact, I don't ever recall not getting 100%. I was tested on the Calvinist doctrine which was being taught.

Being we were instructed to read our Bible ever night, which I did, I found that what I was being taught conflicted with many of the things I was reading in the Bible. Our pastor, who had a Dr of Divinity Degree and was our catachism teacher, could not reconcile the questions I had about the conflicts I saw between Law and Grace. He, like my teachers, could only give church doctrine answers that never answered my quesition.

In order to learn, I found it very helpful to ask questions. The primary reason I have asked you the questions that I did is because I wanted you to go to you Bible for answers. IMHO, you knew that you could not answer those questions from the Bible, therefore you chose to "duck"/"dodge" them. I'm not buying your excuses for not answering them. Haven't I responded to just about every thing you posted. If I haven't responded to something, it was not intentional. Can't you do the same for me? Oops that is another question.

TubaFour said:
Dispy, I am impressed with your studiousness. I am also saddened that you left orthodox truth for extreme dispensationalism. But, be that as it may.

I didn't leave orthodox truth, I left orthodox Calvinism. I found truth that those that taught the doctrine of the man Calvin could show me. I feel sorry for those still in it, and that includes several members of my family.

I am not dodging your questions Dispy, I am making wise use of my very limited time. If you recall, I was reluctant to even get into this debate with you and I cited limited time as my reason. Now that I have, I am accused of dodging your questions. Ok! Fine![/QUOTE]

I didn't leave orthodox truth, I left orthodox Calvinism. I found truth that those that taught the doctrine of the man Calvin could not show me. I feel sorry for those still in it, and that includes several members of my family. (I had 4 brothers and 4 sisters.)

Yes, I am well aware of your limited time. It would be better for our mutual understanding, and dialogue, if you would answer the questions I ask, rather then not respond to them. Even if it takes a longer time to respond to them. That is why I get the feeling that you can't answer them; so you just ignore them.

Dispy said:
Yes, you have responded to the article I recommended you read, and I appreciate that. Haven't I also responded to everthing you posted? Oops, another question.

TubaFour said:
I never accused you of not having enough time to respond.

No you haven't, even when I was extremely busy a few days last week.

Dispy said:
Don't recall you ever giving me your definition of dispensationalism.

TubaFour said:
I don't have a definition of dispensationalism. I don't need one!

How can you dialogue with someone with a topic you can't even define, let alone say it is unBiblical? Can't you find any references to dispensations in the Bible? What do you think Paul means when he says: "According to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you..." (1Colossians 1:25)?

Dispy said:
All I really know is that you believe it is unBiblical. It appears to me that you think dispensationalism is defined by what Scofiled says. Also, it appears that you are trying to paint all dispensationalists with the same brush.

TubaFour said:
Now, you're dodging everything I said and my response to Tracy Plessnger's article and my responses to your responses. Nonetheless, if you disagree with Scofield, you're in the minority. He's one of the founders of the system and me citing him is what it is. If you disagree with him, that's your prerogative. But, that does't make it wrong for me to cite him.

How is this dodging everthing you said in your return responses? Dr. Scofield is an Acts 2 dispensationalist. I agree with many of the thing he says in his footnotes. That is one of the reasons I use his study Bible. However, there are many things I disagree with him on. It would be a great help to name the person who you are reciting. That will eliminate many misunderstandings.

Dispy said:
Dispensationalism through out human history had/has to do with stewardship and "house Laws." Were Adam and Eve good stewards in tending the Garden of Eden? (Oops another question.) Do you think they might have done a better job giving by living according to their conscinece? (Can't seem to get away from those questions.) I know I asked this question before, but never got an answer, but do you think that Adam and Eve were saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ? Don't recall ever reading anything about that in the Bible. In fact, I don't recall anyone, prior to Paul who was saved/justified by placing their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ. Never learned that in a Calvinistic Christian School either. Well, maybe you can give me some of you vast Biblical Calvinistic knowledge and show me where they were; somewhere before it was revealed to Paul.

TubaFour said:

We're getting sarcastic Dispy. I know you may not be able to help it, but that's just too bad. I was having a decent time with our conversations, I suppose all good things must come to an end.

Click to expand...

Well yes, there is some sarcasim in there. I was hoping that it would motivate you to answer the questions, but it didn't. Might have to try some other techique.

Dispy said:

Believe I have already have shown you from Romans 3:25, that they were that their sins were forgiven on the basis of Christ shed blood on the Cross. Not that they personally placed their faith in it. To have their sins covered (atoned) prior to Paul's revelation, they still had to offer animal sacrifices.

Click to expand...

TubaFour said:

What you give with the right hand you take with the left.

Click to expand...

How so?

Dispy said:

it is your desire to discontinue our dialogue, that is strickly up to you. I have no ill feeling about you, only about some of the thing say/don't answer, and I don't take them personally.

Click to expand...

TubaFour said:

What I have no desire to do is waste my time responding to personal remarks. If that's what you devolve into I will not have any dialogue. Period. It's unproductive and a bad witness.

Click to expand...

I agree. You will notice that when you responded to everything I posted, the emotions that are now being displayed, didn't show up. So lets go back to doing just that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

TubaFour · Mar 15, 2006

Dispy said:
Please do. Also, show me from the OT Scriptures where the OT saints were saved by faith in Christ.

You want me to quote you for a statement that says that you believe that OT believers were not saved by faith in Christ? You just said it again right here.

I did show you that OT saints were saved by faith in Christ their redeemer. Starting with Genesis 3:15, a redeemer is promised. Faith in the redeemer (even if his identity and life, death and resurrection details weren't known or understood) is what the entire bible speaks of.

If that statement wasn't directed to me, then I do apologize. Don't recall you ever making that statement about Scofield.

Apology accepted. Nothing in my original post said anything about what you believed or didn't believe or whether you said something or didn't say something. It wasn't about you, Dispy!!

Yes, I am well aware of your limited time. It would be better for our mutual understanding, and dialogue, if you would answer the questions I ask, rather then not respond to them. Even if it takes a longer time to respond to them. That is why I get the feeling that you can't answer them; so you just ignore them.

There are limits to how far I am willing to go down a road with anyone on this board. If I get to the point where I feel I am wasting my time, I'll move on. Time is a precious commodity at my age and life situation with two young kids. I know you understand that, because you said you did.

Don't recall you ever giving me your definition of dispensationalism.

How can you dialogue with someone with a topic you can't even define, let alone say it is unBiblical? Can't you find any references to dispensations in the Bible? What do you think Paul means when he says: "According to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you..." (1Colossians 1:25)?

Dispy, let's be a bit more precise. You asked for a definition of dispensationalism! That's what I responded to by saying that I didn't have any use for such a definition. If you meant you want a definition of "dispensation", it's a simple word that can have several meanings but can mean an era, a way of dealing with human affairs, the act of "dispensing" something like medecine, etc.

How is this dodging everthing you said in your return responses? Dr. Scofield is an Acts 2 dispensationalist. I agree with many of the thing he says in his footnotes. That is one of the reasons I use his study Bible. However, there are many things I disagree with him on. It would be a great help to name the person who you are reciting. That will eliminate many misunderstandings.

Name the person I am citing? I did. Read the OP.

I said:

The trouble with dispensationalism is not how many dispensations there may be. It's what a dispensation means. If you ask Scofield:

[SIZE=-1]A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

[/SIZE]Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation. So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:
[SIZE=-1]
As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"[/SIZE]

Well yes, there is some sarcasim in there. I was hoping that it would motivate you to answer the questions, but it didn't. Might have to try some other techique.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I agree. You will notice that when you responded to everything I posted, the emotions that are now being displayed, didn't show up.

You're giving me way too much credit for your emotions.

So lets go back to doing just that.

OK!

aL

prisonchaplain · Mar 15, 2006

Dispy said:
I haven't found a thread titled "Bible in One Lesson," but if you were referring to the one titled " What if the whole Bible were only one dispensation?" then I find more then one dispensation in your article.

If you did start a thread titled "Bible in One Lesson", clue me in as to where it is. I'd love to read it and comment on it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

Okay, The Bible in One Lesson, was the original title of the sermon outline used here. In other words, disregarding how many dispensations you see in it, does the material itself resonate?

Dispy · Mar 16, 2006

Dispy said:
Please do. Also, show me from the OT Scriptures where the OT saints were saved by faith in Christ.

TubaFour said:
You want me to quote you for a statement that says that you believe that OT believers were not saved by faith in Christ? You just said it again right here.

I did show you that OT saints were saved by faith in Christ their redeemer. Starting with Genesis 3:15, a redeemer is promised. Faith in the redeemer (even if his identity and life, death and resurrection details weren't known or understood) is what the entire bible speaks of.

You have not shown me where they placed thier FAITH in Christ.

Genesis 3:15 does point to Christ, which we see from hinsight, but Adam and Eve didn't have a clue as to who Christ was, or that he would die on a Cross for their sins. So, How could they have FAITH in that? They were saved by believing and doing what God told them. Their salvation/justification came through the merits of what Christ's death, burial and resurrection accomplished.

The purpose of the Cross was unknown at the time of Adam an eve, as per 1Cor.2:7,8 "But we speek the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (before creation) unto our gloryu: Which none of the princes of this world knew; for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory."

Dispy said:
If that statement wasn't directed to me, then I do apologize. Don't recall you ever making that statement about Scofield.

TubaFour said:
Apology accepted. Nothing in my original post said anything about what you believed or didn't believe or whether you said something or didn't say something. It wasn't about you, Dispy!!

OK. It is now water under the bridge.

Dispy said:
Yes, I am well aware of your limited time. It would be better for our mutual understanding, and dialogue, if you would answer the questions I ask, rather then not respond to them. Even if it takes a longer time to respond to them. That is why I get the feeling that you can't answer them; so you just ignore them.

TubaFour said:
There are limits to how far I am willing to go down a road with anyone on this board. If I get to the point where I feel I am wasting my time, I'll move on. Time is a precious commodity at my age and life situation with two young kids. I know you understand that, because you said you did.

OK.

Dispy said:
Don't recall you ever giving me your definition of dispensationalism.

How can you dialogue with someone with a topic you can't even define, let alone say it is unBiblical? Can't you find any references to dispensations in the Bible? What do you think Paul means when he says: "According to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you..." (1Colossians 1:25)?

TubaFour said:
Dispy, let's be a bit more precise. You asked for a definition of dispensationalism! That's what I responded to by saying that I didn't have any use for such a definition. If you meant you want a definition of "dispensation", it's a simple word that can have several meanings but can mean an era, a way of dealing with human affairs, the act of "dispensing" something like medecine, etc.

IMHO dispensationalism is neither a denomination or a doctrine. It is just the manner in which one studies the Bible. There is no set number of dispensations one can find in the Bible, however, most dispensationalists do agree on 7 major dispensations. They do not all agree with eacher, and the biggest disagreement comes as to when the Chruch, the Body of Christ began. Most Acts 2 dispies believe it started at Pentecost, Acts9/midActs dispies (like myself) believe it started very shortly after the setting aside of Israel and the raising up of Saul/Paul. The Acts 28:28 believe the Chruch, the Body of Christ, started when Paul recieved the full knowldege of the mystery while he was in prison in Rome.

Dispy said:
How is this dodging everthing you said in your return responses? Dr. Scofield is an Acts 2 dispensationalist. I agree with many of the thing he says in his footnotes. That is one of the reasons I use his study Bible. However, there are many things I disagree with him on. It would be a great help to name the person who you are reciting. That will eliminate many misunderstandings.

TubaFour said:
Name the person I am citing? I did. Read the OP.

I said: The trouble with dispensationalism is not how many dispensations there may be. It's what a dispensation means. If you ask Scofield:

A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.

Therefore, a dispensation is a legal test of man's obedience to the will of God as revealed in that particular dispensation. So, when we come to the dispensation of Grace, presumably that which we are now under he says:

As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation"

The statement that I was referring to that I thought you were attributing to me was: "So, you see, obedience to the law in the dispensation of the law was a condition of salvation like "faith" is now in the dispensation of grace."

Dispy said:
Well yes, there is some sarcasim in there. I was hoping that it would motivate you to answer the questions, but it didn't. Might have to try some other techique.

TubaFour said:
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Well, something ought to work to get questions answered.

Dispy said:
I agree. You will notice that when you responded to everything I posted, the emotions that are now being displayed, didn't show up. So lets go back to doing just that.

TubaFour said:
You're giving me way too much credit for your emotions.

My emotions are really my show of frustration. I do get frustrated when I look forward to answers and don't get them. It happens to most everyone I deal with on these forums. Seem I like to ask too questions that others do not want to answer.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

What if the whole Bible were only one dispensation?

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