Objections to Theistic Evolution

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rmwilliamsll

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Well, fish do just fine on a double-chambered heart, which consists of just an atrium and a ventricle (whereas we have two of each) operating on a closed, single circulatory system. They have a literally half-formed heart and I don't think they're showing any signs of distress about it.

Skip forward to amphibians. Now we have two atria and one ventricle. Again, frogs aren't croaking because of that.

Skip forward to lizards and (if i'm not mistaken) crocodilians. Now we have two atria and a partially divided ventricle, with a septum which has a muscle-lined hole. Lizards' doing just fine.

Skip forward to the mammalian heart. Two atria, two ventricles, four chambers.

That's how creatures with "half-developed internal organs" survive.

having this written up with scientific links, as well as the same thing for the eye, would really help whenever we see the "IC means either nothing or the whole thing, half things don't work"
 
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shernren

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30_3b.jpg


evolcirc_2.gif

evolcirc_3.gif

evolcircsys_4.gif

evolcircsys_5.gif

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookcircSYS.html#Vertebrate%20Vascular%20Systems
 
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SavedToThaBone

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I'm new to these forums. I'll try to find the correct place to post for discussion.

In brief reply and hopefully not against any forum rules.

For a new system or a better system to appear in a single generation (known as macromutation) a major mutation would have to occure. We have never ovserved a mutation give a positive benefit to the organism it was present in. Drastic mutation causes death in the creatures. I don't even begin to suppose that God isn't powerful enough to forward evolution through mutation, but I don't believe there is enough Biblical or physical evidence to show that is what happened. Darwinian evolution supports micromutation. Slow gradual change over time not giant leaps. The two chambered heart is still a complete system. I wasn't suggesting, nor do I find any evolutionist suppoting the idea that the one chamber was first, then another chamber, then another one grew. What ever the first animal to have a heart was, it had to develop it from a system that did not require a heart, or veins, or blood, or the other things a heart needs to survive and function (let alone the organism that depends on it for its own life) . So to believe TE you should also be a proponent of Macro Mutation.

I am sorry .....

Last post here

I'll look for the other forum and start a run there.

Love in Christ,
LRS
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I think one of the neatest things about the net is the ability to "see" ideas moving through the population. People come here, or to any other discussion forum, to express ideas that they have probably heard somewhere else. A little bit like the game we called chinese whispers as a little kids. That is why watching new people come here, before they've learned the rules, but most importantly before they've learned the vocabulary. For it is that vocabulary that "betrays" the movement of ideas. Macro-mutation, is this a chinese whispers mistake for macro-evolution? not if you look carefully at the posting, is is saltation, or jumps in TofE.

we've seen the "no benefical mutations" many times, but this evolution= saltation is new to me. i'll watch this person's id and see what happens with his time here.
 
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shernren

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It's okay, SavedToTheBone! No hard feelings! I just hope we haven't overly scared you on your first visit here. First-time muckups are common. :)

I think one of the neatest things about the net is the ability to "see" ideas moving through the population. People come here, or to any other discussion forum, to express ideas that they have probably heard somewhere else. A little bit like the game we called chinese whispers as a little kids. That is why watching new people come here, before they've learned the rules, but most importantly before they've learned the vocabulary. For it is that vocabulary that "betrays" the movement of ideas. Macro-mutation, is this a chinese whispers mistake for macro-evolution? not if you look carefully at the posting, is is saltation, or jumps in TofE.

we've seen the "no benefical mutations" many times, but this evolution= saltation is new to me. i'll watch this person's id and see what happens with his time here.

lol, rmswilliams, you sound like a stalker! :D

I think that "macromutations" is indeed a chinese-whisper copying error, though. If you look closely there is the implicit assumption that small mutations cannot cause "macroevolution", eg the evolution of the heart. The normal argument is:

Macroevolution is required.
Macroevolution requires an improbably many beneficial mutations.
Improbably many beneficial mutations are not observed.
Therefore macroevolution is impossible.

Whereas this argument assumes that this is already agreed upon and goes on to argue:

Macroevolution is required.
Macroevolution may have been achieved through "macro-mutation".
However, macromutations would kill the organisms which inherited and expressed it.
Therefore macroevolution is impossible.

Interesting twist, never seen this one before, a conflation of the "genetic boundary" idea and the "lethal mutations outweigh beneficial mutations" idea. Also, isn't it interesting that there is a convenient micro-macro boundary that lets creationists believe just enough science but not more?

Microevolution, but no macroevolution.
Radiodecay rates are constant over the past few years of measurement, but maybe not over the past thousands of years.
The speed of light is constant in everyday laboratory experimentation, but you never know if it could've been grossly larger a few thousand years ago.

Avoiding reasonable and logical extrapolation without giving feasible physical boundaries of scale.
 
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chaoschristian

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rmwilliamsll said:
curiously, one of the most conservative boards that i stalk *grin* is talking about (Punk Eek), there are no posters there that defend TofE (it's against the board rules) and it is surprising how odd the conversations on the topic can get....

Since punctuated equilibrium was devised specifically to answer certain questions about evolutionary theory, how can you discuss it and not talk about evolutionary theory?

And this whole 'it's against the board rules' thing, I think, is good evidence that if the 1st Amendment were put on a national referendum it would fail.

[sings]Free speech for me, but not for thee{/sings]
 
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Didaskomenos

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The biggest problem for them seems to be with Jesus' comment, "from the beginning He made them male and female". Also, for those of us who don't see a literal first man Adam, they are puzzled as to what we should do with Paul's comments about sin entering the world through "one man".

For those of us who read the seven days as metaphorical or as a device, what we do with "for in 6 days God created the heavens and the earth" (Ex 31:17).
 
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shernren

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The biggest problem for them seems to be with Jesus' comment, "from the beginning He made them male and female".

Yes. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to comment on that crucial "arche ktisis". I should write it up somewhere and ask people to refer to it first thing they start throwing out that argument.
 
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stumpjumper

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shernren said:
Yes. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to comment on that crucial "arche ktisis". I should write it up somewhere and ask people to refer to it first thing they start throwing out that argument.

Write it up and put it in the wiki.
 
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shernren

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I'll write it up when I have time, hopefully within the next two months (loaded with projects :() but someone else will have to "wiki" it, I really have no idea what this whole wiki thing is doing at CF. Also I'll need someone who actually knows Greek :p to check over my work when I'm done.
 
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Didaskomenos

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shernren said:
I'll write it up when I have time, hopefully within the next two months (loaded with projects :() but someone else will have to "wiki" it, I really have no idea what this whole wiki thing is doing at CF. Also I'll need someone who actually knows Greek :p to check over my work when I'm done.
I'll look at it, Shernren.
 
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DailyBlessings

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shernren said:
I'll write it up when I have time, hopefully within the next two months (loaded with projects :() but someone else will have to "wiki" it, I really have no idea what this whole wiki thing is doing at CF. Also I'll need someone who actually knows Greek :p to check over my work when I'm done.
I'll be happy to put up a wiki article for ya, when it's finished.
 
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