How Christ completed our salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I think this is definitely in the future.

Originally posted by parousia70

How does the futurist interprate this passage?

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Speaking only for myself, I suspect this passage speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century. But before you jump on that to say I've just become a preterist (grin), note what Jesus says in the whole context of this passage as recorded by Luke.

10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

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If I had to write a short version of the above with only some important landmarks, it would be:

1. There will be the signs from heaven associated with the Day of the Lord

2. But BEFORE this, Jerusalem will be destroyed

3. You will be scattered among the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled

4. Sometime after that, there will be those signs from heaven I told you about, after which I will return in great glory.

2 and 3 sounds exactly like what has happened so far. Jerusalem WAS destroyed, the Jews WERE scattered, and it has been trampled on by the gentiles for nearly 2000 years. But that still leaves the future event of the signs from heaven that signal the Day of the Lord, which is when the Lord visibly returns in great Glory.

A subtle point that supports this is implied in "the time of the gentiles is fulfilled." IMO the time of the gentiles is not quite over, but it's coming to a close. Once that is fulfilled, what does that leave? Another time of the Jews, right? Note that (as is clearly outlined in other prophecy) the Jews are being regathered to Israel - a process that started some 50 years ago. Looks to me like we're getting very close to the switchover back to the time of the Jews, which will usher in the events that will lead to the Day of the Lord.

A subtle point that supports this is implied in "the time of the gentiles is fulfilled." IMO the time of the gentiles is not quite over, but it's coming to a close. Once that is fulfilled, what does that leave? Another time of the Jews, right? Note that (as is clearly outlined in other prophecy) the Jews are being regathered to Israel - a process that started some 50 years ago. Looks to me like we're getting very close to the switchover back to the time of the Jews, which will usher in the events that will lead to the Day of the Lord.

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Very good. This is a great point.

Originally posted by GTX
Man, I NEED an automated scripture posting method.

Hang on, I am cross referencing it with Romans chapter 9.

Maybe I will start a new thread that deals with the preterist view and the study of each scripture, what else do we have to do? Is there a thread like that already?

It seems that there are a LOT of preterist threads and it is just too much at once.

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Go to www.biblestudytools.net where you have every available tool for studying the bible and you can just copy and paste passages to here.

Ed

Originally posted by GTX


Very good. This is a great point.

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GTX, do I take it that you are in total agreement with npetreley's assesment of Luke 21:20-22?

I noticed you did not address the verse you asked me for directly, opting instead to bring up multiple other "problem" scriptures for me to comment on.

I thought you wanted to keep it concice, One scripture at a time?

Lets stick to Luke 21:20-22.
How do you, GTX interprate this verse? Do you personally agree with Npet that "When you see Jerusalem encompassed with armies" refers to 70AD?

Npet,
Thanks for the response!
Before I reply, I wanted to make sure we are on the same page.

Do you believe Luke 21 is in fact Lukes account of the "Olivet Discourse", or do you believe Luke is quoting a different sermon of Jesus, Given at a different place and time and speaking of different events, than the one recorded in Mark and Matt?

Thanks

Originally posted by GTX


Well I think, the fact that the time of the Gentiles will run it's course, is suggesting that Israel will once again play a significant role in Gods plan.

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P70, I answered the question, this will happen once again.

Thank You ArtistEd, I can now be partially automated.

Originally posted by GTX


P70, I answered the question, this will happen once again.

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Really? so you believe "all things written" were fulfilled in 70 AD, but they will be fulfilled once again?

Where does the Bible tell you this?
any why only once again?

why not twice more, or 3 times more?

How many times do you believe "all things written" need to be fulfilled before they are actually fulfilled?

Thanks.

Originally posted by npetreley


Note that (as is clearly outlined in other prophecy) the Jews are being regathered to Israel - a process that started some 50 years ago. Looks to me like we're getting very close to the switchover back to the time of the Jews, which will usher in the events that will lead to the Day of the Lord.

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Could you point me to this "Clear outline" as you call it, of the "other prophesy" that fortells Modern day "jews" being gathered back to physical Israel?

Thanks

P70, I believe the NT was written after 70 AD, so any similarities that happened in 70 AD were not the prophesies of the end times.

Why should I show anything in the OT, when end times is mostly prophesied in the NT?

There will and is now being a rebuilding of the temple, these prophesies will come to pass in a physical sense, in the future. That is reasonable right?

Originally posted by GTX
P70, I believe the NT was written after 70 AD, so any similarities that happened in 70 AD were not the prophesies of the end times.

Why should I show anything in the OT, when end times is mostly prophesied in the NT?

There will and is now being a rebuilding of the temple, these prophesies will come to pass in a physical sense, in the future. That is reasonable right?

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GTX, I don't know where to begin whith that one.

OK, first you say that you believe the Entire New Testament was written after Jerusalem was Destroyed.

Be very careful about that.

Do you realize what you are saying?
You are saying that the NT was written after most of it's authors were already dead!

You may want to re-think that particular belief

Next, even if it were written after 70AD, The words were spoken by Jesus to His disciples 40 years before.

We can use Luke 21:20-22 as an example. (Keeps us on topic too)

I'll break this passage apart. I'd like you to tell me what you believe Jeasus meant when He spoke these words.

Jesus, speaking directly to His disciples, around 30AD Said:
When you see Jerusalem encompassed by armies, know that it's desolation is near.

Did the apostles ever see Jerusalem enompassed by armies?
YES
Was Jerusalem left desolate in the apostles generation?
YES

" then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

A warning for them 2000 years ago?
A warning for us today?

because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all things that have been written.Lu 21;20-22YLT


To fulfill all things written?

What did Jesus mean when He said that GTX?

Next, even if it were written after 70AD, The words were spoken by Jesus to His disciples 40 years before.

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John was the last living disciple, he wrote Revelation after 70 AD.

Those verses above could easily and most likely be written for our generation, this is interpreted as our generation, meaning them and us too. It is a warning for us. Why would we be excluded? Why are we not considered that generation?

Can you elaborate or show proof that the prophesies are not for our generation(keep in mind our generation is their generation).

Nothing you have stated above rules out that we are not a part of that, you can't prove it rules us out.

OK, lets take this one step at a time.
When you see Jerusalem encompassed by armies, know that it's desolation is near.

Jesus spoke that to His disciples. 36 years later They saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and it was, infact, laid desolate.

Why do you believe this needs to happen again?
How many times throughout history does God need to fulfill a prophesy before you agree that it has been fulfilled?

Originally posted by GTX


John was the last living disciple, he wrote Revelation after 70 AD

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While it is generally agreed John Lived past 70AD, the post 70AD date for The Revelation is hotly debated.

Does this mean you are backing away from your previous assertion that the entire NT was written Post 70AD?
Good Idea! You might want to clarify that for myself and the other readers however.

Originally posted by GTX
Those verses above could easily and most likely be written for our generation, this is interpreted as our generation, meaning them and us too. It is a warning for us. Why would we be excluded? Why are we not considered that generation?

Can you elaborate or show proof that the prophesies are not for our generation(keep in mind our generation is their generation).

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GTX, for this you'll need some kind of scipture to support your claim, otherwise it stands as the mere musing of fallible men.

You claim "this Generation" has lasted 2000 years.

How long does the Bible say a "generation" Lasts?

Numbers 32:13
So the Lord's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was gone."

Deuteronomy 2:14
And the time we took to come from Kadesh Barnea until we crossed over the Valley of the Zered was thirty-eight years, until all the generation of the men of war was consumed from the midst of the camp, just as the Lord had sworn to them."

GTX, form these scriptures, it would appear that a Biblical Generation lasts from about 38 - 40 years.
How do you get 2000 years? What scripture tells you that?

Generation, biblically speaking, is similar to how we interptate "generation today.

For example, My "generation" is a "different generation" from "my fathers generation"

Get it? Same with the Bible, unless of course you can give me a Biblical example of a 2000 year generation?

Perhaps you meant "Age", or perhaps you interprate "Generation" to mean "race"

If so, please provide Biblical support.

Now, Lets apply your interprative outline to another scriptue and see how it holds up.
(Just for comparison, I'm still interested you your explaination of Luke 21:20-22, and don't want to stray too far away from that until you address it in detail for me)

But quickly look at Phillippians 2:19, there it is written:

But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

GTX, are you expecting Timothy to arrive to you soon?
The Bible says you are to expect Timothy's soon arrival dosen't it?

Prove to me why I should not be expecting Timothy to arrive to me soon? This is written to you and me right?

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.



I do not think much thought has been given to our disobedience and our part in the events claimed to have already taken place. When God says something, it's said, and it will not change. What He gave us was a series of events (much of which He was quoting from Isaiah). If these instructions had been followed then He would come They were not followed then or now. Revelation has much to say about the way churches had become disobedient to the task of spreading the good news. Jesus gave instructions to people just like us, if -

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

-we follow those instructions, if we were willing, then you would see Jesus in a generation. But the generation He was speaking of still doesn't exist. I know you are already writing "this generation" but read Isaiah, find out that God was speaking of an obedient generation. You have been tricked.

You should look at your flawed logic. If you wanted too, you could take the message as: preach the gospel but don't leave the house, spread the good news but right in the middle of your obedience I will destroy your city. The city was destroyed because of disobedience, not obedience. Or, some are so confused they think He already came and broke 100's of other promises in the process.

You have been fooled. Jesus was not speaking of a city, nor were the armies made up of men. You are losing the battle right now by following a foolish doctrine. Who has tricked you?

Blessings

Originally posted by eldermike
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

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Eldermike,
The bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the Gospel was in fact preached to all nations, the whole world, and every creature under heaven, by the Late 60's AD

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Jesus returned to Fulifll His promises, not to break them.

A Postponement of His reurn beyond the apostles generation would be breaking the promise, not keeping it.

Thanks be to God, He kept it!

In Christ,
P70

Hey P70, those verses are extremely literal, so our futurist friends probably won't want to explain them away -maybe they will believe our Lord's Words I mean, the inspired Scriptures say it is so! -I believe it

davo

P70,
you sEldermike,
The bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the Gospel was in fact preached to all nations, the whole world, and every creature under heaven, by the Late 60's AD>

You can teach what you want to teach, it just ain't so.

Blessings