Evolution and the Fall of Man

ascribe2thelord · Mar 7, 2006

Here goes my attempt to explain my beliefs:

I believe God created the earth to be perfect. I believe he made us to dwell in it for all eternity.

But we ate the forbidden fruit, and that act of disobedience changed both the present, future, AND the past.

That is where I believe the millions of years come from. We introduced sin, chaos and death into the world by sinning against God. Original sin changed reality itself.

When God says in Revelation that he is making new heavens and a new earth, that is exactly what he means. He sent his Son to redeem us from evolution (sin and death), so that we can be reborn with a new nature and have eternal life again. Soon he will create a whole new world for his children to dwell in.

There: an origins theory that denies neither scientific observations nor the Bible itself.

ebia · Mar 8, 2006

Doesn't that mean that a heck of a lot of creation (most of it?, certainly a lot of really awe-inspiring stuff) is created by sin and not by Christ?

Dannager · Mar 8, 2006

Okay. Nothing wrong with your hypothesis, but nothing to substantiate it either. It's on the same level as last-Thursdayism.

chaoschristian · Mar 8, 2006

One little nitpick to start off with: chaos existed prior to the act of creation. Chaos is what is bound in the act of creation, and is unique and seperate from death and sin.

Mallon · Mar 8, 2006

Interesting thought, though none of it is biblical.
One reputation that evolution has amongst many Christians that I'm not so sure it deserves is that it's all about sin and death. While some of this might be true to some level, evolution should also be rightly recognized as an explanation as to how this great diversity of life has come to this Earth. Christians look at evolution and say, "Why so much death?" But they really ought to ask themselves "Why so much life?"

PaladinValer · Mar 8, 2006

Its retroactive, so it isn't possible.

Original sin doesn't change the whole of reality, but the state of the human being. It injured the human nature and broke the human soul.

Evolution isn't the result of original sin. It has nothing to do with theology in the first place.

I must completely reject it.

stumpjumper · Mar 8, 2006

Considering that the YEC dating of the earth comes from geneologies from Adam, it is unbiblical.

Since it doesn't take into account that the billions of years were before the emergence of man, it is unscientific.

It would, however, make a good plot for a fantasy book

shernren · Mar 8, 2006

But we ate the forbidden fruit, and that act of disobedience changed both the present, future, AND the past.

As far as I know it would not be possible theologically for an action to change the past, as to do so would erase man's responsibility for his actions. But that's just me.

rmwilliamsll · Mar 8, 2006

I believe God created the earth to be perfect. I believe he made us to dwell in it for all eternity.

we can do this one line at a time.
this is a common mistake. the word used in Genesis is 'good' not perfect. good as in suitable, complete, functional.

not perfect, certainly not in the sense of without fault, without error. it is simply amazing how many YECists are deeply influenced by AiG's, no death before the Fall fraud and push this motif back into creation by transmogrifying the word "good' into the word "perfect".

i am uncertain of your term us.
for i was not there, nor do i believe were you.

i am also unsure of your usage of the term eternity, i don't see the idea anywhere in Gen 1-5 and wonder what you exactly mean by it.

perhaps 2 sentences at a time is too fast. looks like one of those texts you have to analyze one word at a time hopeing that the author isn't trying to sneak something past you.

Didaskomenos · Mar 8, 2006

But welcome to the discussion, anyway!

ascribe2thelord · Mar 12, 2006

Spiritual actions can have physical repercussions, right?

The atonement covered the sins of both the Israelis hoping for Christ to come (before his death and resurrection) and those afterwards, in the church age while we are waiting for his return.

Becoming born again (as it is often called, accepting Christ, making a decision) of the Holy Spirit changes our future and past. The sins of our past are forgiven, and those we will commit are covered by his blood. And we have eternal life.

What if evolution entered the world by the fall of man, and changed the past as well as the future?

God said in Revelation that he was making new heavens and a new earth - obviously the old one is corrupted by sin.

ascribe2thelord · Mar 12, 2006

For all my brothers and sisters in Christ: I don't mean to say I'm totally convinced of this (I know I wrote believe before but I should have said, think), as it's only a theory of why things may appear to be so old, under scientific analysis.

Dannager · Mar 12, 2006

ascribe2thelord said:
Becoming born again (as it is often called, accepting Christ, making a decision) of the Holy Spirit changes our future and past. The sins of our past are forgiven, and those we will commit are covered by his blood. And we have eternal life.

I don't think I'd call forgiving the sins of the past changing the past. It's not the same thing. If that were true, forgiving anyone of any trransgression against you would be changing the past as well. Becoming born-again doesn't really change anything in the past, as far as I know.

And even if that were true, it's not a falsifiable position. An interesting philosophical inquiry, perhaps, but not something that can ever be evidenced or disproven. It's the same as Last Thursdayism.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 12, 2006

God's spirit will change our knowledge and understanding of the past; to wit: Old earth, no evolution.

DiscipleDave · Mar 13, 2006

i do not understand what sin and death have to do with evolution or creation

Evolution is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created.

Creation is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created

in both cases sin and death are not part of the theories

and Here is my thought on this topic, if you do not believe it happened exactly as the Bible says it happened then you do not believe the Words of God, if you do not believe the Words of God, then you are not Christian.

True Christians believe in Faith what the Words of God teach how man got here.

Typical Christians believe in man and what the scientists teach about how man got here.

you do the math which ones God will punish, or be pleased with.

Want to know the Truth, ask a child how did man get here, and believe what they teach you.

d

ebia · Mar 13, 2006

DiscipleDave said:
i do not understand what sin and death have to do with evolution or creation

Evolution is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created.

Creation is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created

Note that creationism is not a theory in sense that evolution is.

in both cases sin and death are not part of the theories

and Here is my thought on this topic, if you do not believe it happened exactly as the Bible says it happened then you do not believe the Words of God, if you do not believe the Words of God, then you are not Christian.

The Word of God is Christ, not the bible.
Christ spoke creation into existence and his creation tells us how it was made. The bible tells us why and what our place is in it.

True Christians believe in Faith what the Words of God teach how man got here.

Would you like sugar on your porridge?

Want to know the Truth, ask a child how did man get here, and believe what they teach you.

Dannager · Mar 13, 2006

DiscipleDave said:
Evolution is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created.

Evolution isn't a theory of how the earth and everything else got here. Evolutionary theory says nothing about how the earth was formed. It only describes the processes of mutation and natural selection. Who taught you evolutionary theory?

Creation is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created

Which means it doesn't cover the same things as evolution, since evolutionary theory doesn't deal with how the earth and everything else got here.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and creationism isn't a scientific theory as it does not meet the requirements. You can view them in layman's terms at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Characteristics.

in both cases sin and death are not part of the theories

Well, death plays a fairly significant part in evolutionary theory because it usually is the natural enforcer of the selection process. Once something dies it can't pass its genes on.

and Here is my thought on this topic, if you do not believe it happened exactly as the Bible says it happened then you do not believe the Words of God, if you do not believe the Words of God, then you are not Christian.

The Bible isn't the "Words of God", it's simply inspired by God. Who told you anything else? Also, implying that a member of this board is not a Christian is against the forum rules. There are a very large number of people who accept the Genesis account as allegorical, not literal. In fact, the largest Christian denomination (the Roman Catholic Church) officially accepts modern evolutionary theory.

True Christians believe in Faith what the Words of God teach how man got here.

Under what authority do you presume to judge what makes a man a "True Christian" and what doesn't?

Typical Christians believe in man and what the scientists teach about how man got here.

As they should. The Bible can't explain the particulars of science and science can't explain the particulars of religion. Leave them to their separate domains where they belong.

you do the math which ones God will punish, or be pleased with.

I imagine that God really doesn't care how Genesis is interpreted. Furthermore, I imagine that neither of us is in any way qualified to tell the other exactly how we will be judged.

Want to know the Truth, ask a child how did man get here, and believe what they teach you.

That seems like a rather foolish idea, since the child has no experience studying the heirarchical descent of our species or the concept of common ancestry. Heck, why not go to a six year-old for advice on your car's transmission, or the proper way to baste a turkey. I'm sure everything will turn out fine if you believe what they teach you.

ascribe2thelord · Mar 13, 2006

DiscipleDave said:
i do not understand what sin and death have to do with evolution or creation

Evolution is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created.

Creation is a theory of how the Earth and every thing else got here and how man was created

in both cases sin and death are not part of the theories

and Here is my thought on this topic, if you do not believe it happened exactly as the Bible says it happened then you do not believe the Words of God, if you do not believe the Words of God, then you are not Christian.

True Christians believe in Faith what the Words of God teach how man got here.

Typical Christians believe in man and what the scientists teach about how man got here.

you do the math which ones God will punish, or be pleased with.

Want to know the Truth, ask a child how did man get here, and believe what they teach you.

What I was saying does not exclude the truth of Genesis 1 and 2! The theory I was putting forth does insist that God originally created the earth, 6,000 years ago.

I was putting an emphasis on the fall of man, and the possible effects it may have had on nature, present, future and past.

DiscipleDave · Mar 13, 2006

ascribe2thelord said:
What I was saying does not exclude the truth of Genesis 1 and 2! The theory I was putting forth does insist that God originally created the earth, 6,000 years ago.

ascribe2thelord said:
I was putting an emphasis on the fall of man, and the possible effects it may have had on nature, present, future and past.

i do appoligize to you, i misunderstood and thought that sin and death were being used somehow to support creation theory or the evolution theory and did not understand how it played a part.

Again i am sorry,

YOu do well in believing God created the Earth 6,000 years ago, for that is the Truth.

^i^

ascribe2thelord · Mar 13, 2006

For all future posters, please take the time to think about what I said, before spouting off about why TE or YEC is the only acceptable belief/theory!

If you want to know what I personally believe about the word of God: I believe in it more as a whole than as individual parts. The word (logos) means story - the Bible is "his-story." Pardon the pun.

I believe it is the message itself that God wants us to be spiritually concerned about, and not the science behind the miracles in the Bible. (Miracles, by definition, defy scientific experiments, but one may still speculate.)

God is the Creator.
We broke fellowship with him.
He established a covenant (a sort of agreement) with man, the law.
We broke his law because we never had true fellowship with him.
He established a new covenant by grace.
We still break his law, but by faith we are upheld, and by faith we feel sorrow for our transgressions, and believe in the Son who was sent to be crucified because of our sins, and who rose on the third day. In him we have eternal life, by faith. And by the works of the Holy Spirit in and through us, we are justified, and considered righteous in the sight of God.
He will take us to heaven, and make us perfect (or send unbelievers to a miserable hell with Satan, forever).
We will worship God forever.

That message is what is most important - that is the word of God. Not arguments over material things, like carbon-14 and prehistoric dating!!!

Evolution and the Fall of Man

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