If you have time: How many believe this?

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aggie03

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Do you really think that denominations are a good thing? I agree that many of them are divided over things that seem relatively unimportant - but at the same time the existence of denominations appears to be a very terrible thing. There is no mention of denominations in the Bible - not one. In fact, there are many warnings against dividing the church - against following gospels other than the one that the apostles taught, which was the truth. I don't see how denominations could be the will of God if it's never mentioned once in His word.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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I believe that nowadays, with so many Christians blinded by Satan, denominations are a good thing. What kind of service would it be if the pastor said, "We need to have sole faith in God as a means for salvation." And then the Catholics stand up and scream, "Christ was God and He required of us in the OT that we follow the Law." Then the LDS stand up and scream "He was NOT God! He was a second personage." And the Jehovah's Witnesses stand up and scream "He was the archangel Michael! He came for His saints in 1914, ever since then we've been living in the tribulation period..." More Christians stand up and scream "We would have been taken up into glory while the unbelievers were left behind!" And more Christians would stand up and scream "The pre-trib rapture is unBiblical."

The place I would then loathe being in most would be the place with the most rage and violence: The house of God. Yes, I think denominations are a good thing, if we understand them.

Of course it isn't Biblical; there were no problems like that today. I think that we need seperate instituions where people have similar beleifs to worship them in common.

Do you really think that denominations divided the church? Or is it possible that perhaps the divisions lie in others beliefs, not government recognized denominations. People divide themselves; denominations give them a home. You're recognizing that people agmonst denominations are divided, you're not recognizing where the problem lies though. Not in the building, organization, or structure, in our hearts. TTYL Jesus loves you!
 
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We believe in man's freedom to worship as their hearts so dictate. We believe that these rights established by God and government are of utmost importance to respect; we ask that these same rights are not denied of us.

Just a quick question, if you don't mind. In the Old Testament, didn't God set up a system of laws revealing to us that which was and that which was not acceptable? I'm not talking about ceremonial laws, but about the way God wanted to be worshipped. Basically, this goes back to the commandment which commands us to keep the Sabbath holy. Also, we are told in the New Testament that we are to worship him in spirit and in truth.

I guess my question is, what are you meaning by the first sentence in the quote above? Are you stating that you believe that we have the God-given right to worship him, or are you saying that we have the God-given right to worship him as we please?

My dad has been doing much research on worship, ever since we have been studying the westminister confession and catechism in sunday school, and it has us both extremely interested in figuring out just what is meant by proper worship. He and i have been asking ourselves more and more, "what constitutes proper worship?". Anyways, sorry i've made this so long, but i was just a bit unsure. I'm not exactly very strong on the certain topic of worship, but i love studying theology, and would greatly appreciate your input!

Thanks for your time!

P.S. Besides this one question, i believe that your summary of the faith was great! And yes, i do share your beliefs! :)
 
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Oh, lol. Don't say you're a rookie cause you don't know that!! We're all rookies compared to the Man. I'm a teen and have only been a Christian for about 3 years. We are all rookies. Simply sinners who have been forgiven.

Good answer Defender of the Faith 777. :clap: Have you been praying for God to give you wisdom?? He certainly has blessed you with a bountiful supply of it for such a young age. The truth is simple and so refreshing. :yum:

Count me in too!!! :D
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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I've been praying for humility and the power to resist the temptation through Him, though knowing more about Him would help my walk tremendously. I wish that He would reveal enough to me, allowing me to witness to and let the Holy Spirit work to the best of my ability to fertilize the ground. Just castin seeds, He does the growing and saving. I've been thinking about a lot, there's been the most sudden spiritual high and low that I've ever experienced. TTYL Jesus loves you!
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Good question ServantGirl. Welcome to the forums by the way! lol

I shudder to think of how different people chooose to worhship God. We have the God-given right to make choices, whether we accept Him or reject Him, we have that right. We have the God-given right to choose to believe Him and what He teaches, and choose where your faith lies, in Christianity, etc. We have the right to make choices, we make choices everyday. This is the most serious one. It is sad when somone chooses unwisely. We actually do have the right to CHOOSE to, let's say, punch a hole in the wall and think that that qualifies as worship. We have the right to believe that as our hearts dictate. It does not make it right or justify it. The truth of what God considers worship stands no matter what we choose to believe. But we have the right to believe what we want, worship as our hearts so dictate, and accept Him or reject Him. God has given us a choice, a right. (Although, talk about irony, the word "right" does not mean that what we choose is right.)
 
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jimigold

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Yup that's what i believe
But to be sure you do believe in a personal relationship with God don't you? Just out of interest, do you see prayer as a formal one-way commuication with God. Or do you see it more like a discussion with God (like me). I like to think of it like a relaxed discussion in which you are free to joke or whatever. Basically i don't see it as formal in any way and more like a discussion you would have with your closest friend.

What do you think?
 
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Defender, I had one more question, if I may...

You say that we have the ability to choose, and to choose whether or not to accept God's free gift of salvation. However, in Romans 8:29, it states that "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined [..]". Likewise, in Ephesians 1:5, Paul also says this regarding predestination: "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will". This must mean, then, that we have been chosen, by the One True God, to be saved. In Colossians 2:13, this is stated: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." How could a dead man make a choice as to death or life? We were dead, and we were made alive by Christ, for dead men cannot live.

To get to what this post is about, my question is this: how could we choose to follow Christ, when Scripture says that we cant and that we've already been predestined, elected, by HIM. For in Ephesians 1:4, at the very tail end leading into verse 5, Paul writes that Christ has predestined us in love. Also, in Romans 9:11-18&21-22, we are shown that the Lord loved Jacob but hated Esau before they were born! On the surface, it seems as if one must ask, "how could a loving God destine people for hell?" However, who are we that God should chose any of us? "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" - Romans 9:20-21.

Anyways, just a thought. i would be grateful for your comments/questions. Thank you for your time and God bless!

By the way, thanks for your welcome to these forums :).
 
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WayneH

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On the COntrary TorahD........

We feel this and more about Gods Word and his teachings...


jimigold - may I answer also.. I agree 200% with what you said - it is a discussion between you and your closest friend - thats what it should be.. because when We accept Christ as our saviour - We are saying he is our friend - our best friend... I always felt that prayer was a two way conversation.. the problem many have is we use it as a one way talk - US talking and convincing God what we need.. We tend to neglect the part where God talks to Us. telling us what it really is we need and how he wants to be there for us.. its really awesome when we sit back and LISTEN to God.....


If I may throw My two cents worth in Servantgirl - after saying welcome....

In My opinion - yes - we are predestined - but God still gave us the choice.. We can still walk away - Yes - We woudl be rebelling - but We can refuse Gods salvation - refuse his loving hand on us - refuse anythinga nd everything He has done.. God never destines anyone to Hell - he gives the sinner salvation - but its a gift to be taken - to be accepted... its only when We turn away does God saddly allow the sinner to be turned over to Satan.. God wants ALL to come to th esaving knowledge - but We have to be open to it...

of cpurse this could and should be a lot longer but suffice it to say - this is the gist of the matter.. take care...
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
I believe that nowadays, with so many Christians blinded by Satan, denominations are a good thing. What kind of service would it be if the pastor said, "We need to have sole faith in God as a means for salvation." And then the Catholics stand up and scream, "Christ was God and He required of us in the OT that we follow the Law." Then the LDS stand up and scream "He was NOT God! He was a second personage." And the Jehovah's Witnesses stand up and scream "He was the archangel Michael! He came for His saints in 1914, ever since then we've been living in the tribulation period..." More Christians stand up and scream "We would have been taken up into glory while the unbelievers were left behind!" And more Christians would stand up and scream "The pre-trib rapture is unBiblical."

The place I would then loathe being in most would be the place with the most rage and violence: The house of God. Yes, I think denominations are a good thing, if we understand them.

Of course it isn't Biblical; there were no problems like that today. I think that we need seperate instituions where people have similar beleifs to worship them in common.

Do you really think that denominations divided the church? Or is it possible that perhaps the divisions lie in others beliefs, not government recognized denominations. People divide themselves; denominations give them a home. You're recognizing that people agmonst denominations are divided, you're not recognizing where the problem lies though. Not in the building, organization, or structure, in our hearts. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Do you believe the JW's are simply a denomination?
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Torah's Disciple, c'mon now. That's just not right. Did you just ignore the verses I posted under it. The term "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" does not appear in the Bible. Rather, God revealed more and more about His name, "Elohim", being plural as I'm sure you're quite well aware of. "El" would be one accepted singular way of saying it. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Shamah Israel, Yehovah Elohim ekhat Yehovah." Meaning "Hear O Israel, Jehovah God is one LORD." But the other verses, numbering to about 10, should be adequate. TTYL Jesus loves you!
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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We must accept Christ's death. It is great and all that God chose us, but we must choose to believe in Him. That is how we, the elect, accept His Grace. We cannot live our lives as serial killers and never accept Christ, yet be an elect.

Whattup Mandy; Jehovah's Witnesses are divided into a denomination, they consider themselves Christians, and so do we. Now if I could control it, I would say that they were not just another division of Christianity. Because I see it as a heresy in many doctrines. That's what they claim. They're homed in a mere denomination, but it's their hearts that have the divisions.
 
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Thunderchild

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We believe in God, the Heavenly Father, God the Son: Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit. We accept that they are one God, Spirit, and Essence, with three distinct personalities. agreed We believe that He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. almost a certainty.

We belive that the Holy Bible is God's Word, infallible, and for use of teaching instruction and correction. disproven We believe that God preserved the truth of His message throughout the centuries, and accept it's inerrancy to this very day. agreed

We believe that God laid aside His divine rights and chose to dwell incarnate among us as Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who served not only to obey the law, but also to fulfill it. We believe that He abolished the Levitical laws under God's authority and established the New Covenant through His death and resurrection, according to the Scriptures. We hold to the belief that He is our eternal prophet priest and king. agreed

We believe that the fall of man marked an epoch of sin in the human race, therefore isolating us from God. agreed We believe that no human soul deserves to dwell with god in His perfection and holiness because of this sin nature. If this is adherence to the concept of original sin, disagreed: Otherwise, agreed.

We believe that Jesus Christ offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, dying that we might be able to live with Him in heaven. We believe that by accepting His death and gift of forgiveness, man's relationship with God can be restored and we can enter into God's family through faith in Jesus Christ, as taught according in accordance to the Scriptures. agreed

We believe that baptism is an outward manifestation of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. not incorrect We believe that this public display has no impact on a person's salvation, and serves only as a symbol to confirm the decision with Christ to others. According to Biblical record, baptism saves you. According to Biblical record, baptism buries the flesh and is the means through which we are raised to a new life. 

We believe that good works are the outward signs of Christ in our hearts, made manifest to others, and that they should be done solely because of our love for Christ. agreed We believe that these displays do not add or detract from the work that Christ Jesus finished on the cross, but will however affect heaven's rewards. No comment: Further exposition would be of benefit. 

We believe in one heaven with God, and one hell outside of His presence; we believe that heaven is not for good people, but for sinners who are forgiven. agreed with provisos We believe that all equally deserve to be cast from God's presence because of our sin, and that only through faith in Christ can we stand justified before Him. agreed

We believe in man's freedom to worship as their hearts so dictate. We believe that these rights established by God and government are of utmost importance to respect; we ask that these same rights are not denied of us. agreed

We believe in the importance of sharing Christ's message of salvation. We believe that we are all called to preach the gospel, to use words only when absolutely necessary. agreed

We believe in the eschatological prophecies recorded in the book of Revelation, and literally believe in the Lord's second descent for His saints. We believe that all with be resurrected, judged, and sent to eternal life or death depending on the state of the soul and its iniquities. agreed - I think.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Thunderchild... you crack me up bro. Sheep in wolf's clothing... lol

Perhaps you should write one or edit mine where you believe the "provisos" are needed. I still maintain that:

The Bible is inerrant (disproven? Powerful word there, lol alright show me)

Original sin: I don't believe that we'll be judged for Adam's sin. But I do believe that we inherited a sin nature, and physical death. We have spiritual life from condemnation of OUR OWN sins through Christ.

Alright, this is one thing I would like to talk about. Please elaborate and provide Scriptural support. Baptism is an outward manifestation of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. It shows others we're saved, and is a symbol. They don't know if Christ's blood has really cleansed us or not. So we show them through baptism. When Christ died on the cross for us, and shouted "IT IS FINISHED!", to be frank, it was finished. All sin is now officially forgiven. We must simply accept His forgivness.

Isn't it obvious enough there lol? Good works do not save us. Only accepting Christ's grace through FAITH in Him. They do however affect how heaven will be, is that the disagreement? If you can show me where it says otherwise in the Bible, I'll compare where it with where it heavily supports this.

What do you recommend? (Not to be rude or anything, but I want to take suggestions to change it if there's something unclear)

TTYL Jesus loves you!

Stormy, I only need 777 blessings. THANK YOU for bringing me there! I hope it'll have an impact at LDS church camp in a few weeks. Granted that the Holy Spirit has plans for His message there. I'll pass these out before I leave, so they can't kick me out. Kinko's after revising it, if Thunderchild has better plans for it! I hope that they'll see the truth. TTYL Jesus loves you too!
 
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Thunderchild

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Wouldn't it be nice if that interpretation was valid. However - look again at Ephesians 1:5 in its proper setting.

Eph 1:1   Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 
   
    Eph 1:2   Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.  
        Eph 1:3   Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:  
        Eph 1:4   According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  
        Eph 1:5   Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  
        Eph 1:6   To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 

1 To whom is this addressed? The faithful in Christ Jesus, or some other group?

2 Does the passage say:

... a/ people are pre-destined to become faithful?

... b/ the faithful are pre-destined to become children of God through Christ Jesus?

3 Does the passage say:

a/ He has chosen us in him to be made holy?

b/ He has chosen us to be in him and made holy?

4 Which interpretation is in accord with the balance of the New Testament record:

a/ that God decided before the foundation of the world that those faithful to him would be made holy and adopted as sons.

b/ that God decided before the foundation of the world, who would be adopted as sons and made holy. :priest:

 

Defender - Much you ask for, but I will give a little for now, it being already 04:05 hrs here. (and there are only so many sunrises I care to see in a fortnight.)

OK - A fairly apt description of the concept of original sin: the idea is that we inherit the punishment due for Adam's sin, his sin has been (as though) genetically transmitted down through the generations.  The concept is rejected - even in the Old Testament it is stated that a person will be held accountable only for the sins he personally commits. (as you yourself have observed.)

What we do have is a propensity to be swayed and misled by our own desires (as it were, the will of a person's flesh), rather than being led by our will (as it were, the desire of the person's spirit.) That is, we inheret the ability to be tempted, and invariably fail to resist (at least once.) :priest:

Ah now - the matter of all sins being forgiven without price, that price being met in full by Christ Jesus . No works are necessary and no works can be entered into either to earn or to keep salvation.

 Would you believe that I spent more than 20 years trying to reconcile with the balance of all other references, only two passages which seemed to support that concept?

Every other passage which had been presented as evidence in support of "no works" had been examined thoroughly and a mis-interpretation or mis-application shown to exist. (Sometimes it was a VERY lengthy process, taking all of about 5 seconds.)

These passages though, had me stumped - and stumped for more than 20 years. Every they were presented (just about on a monthly basis) I would look at them - and there was no way to refute them: there had  been no mis-representation, neither mis-application. Undeniably, the passages supported the concept of "grace and not works."

Nothing in the passages even vaguely points to the possibility that works are necessary - a distinct contrast with the overall theme of the New Testament. You can destroy EVERY argument brought in favour of the need for works with these passages. And they are the only passages that can be used to do so. (Or so it seemed)

If there had been only one passage, I might have been tempted to write it off as a stand-alone contradiction - but two passages aligned are scripture - there is no contradiction in scripture.

About 3 weeks ago, someone asked a question which was slightly different in form to the usual phrasing.  And I discovered that for 20 years, I had consistently overlooked just three words in one of the passages:

Rom 3:21
  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:  Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God;  To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.  Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.   Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The second of the passages is.
Eph 2:4 - 9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,   Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
All very compelling, until one reads the rest:

 
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 
 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
  

That is simple enough - see if you can work out the answer using the procedure similar to the one I used above on the pre-destination thingy. (It's called .... a reading comprehension test.)

 
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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We are saved by Grace. Agreed. We cannot stand before a perfect God and declare ourselves righteous; trying to bribe Him with "filthy rags" by showing Him our resumes on how "good" we are is blasphemy. But, Grace is nothing if you don't believe. You must accept the Grace by faith. It is the Gift of Grace; what good is it if we don't accept it? If we leave it unwrapped?

It all boils down to that God predestines those whom He knows will have faith, being omnipotent. We are His elect, accepted by faith. He stuck out His hand by dying a bloody death on the cross; we shook it by accepting His forgiveness.
 
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