The Roots of Futurism & Preterism

Status
Not open for further replies.

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟746,824.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
What are the roots of futurism & preterism? When I google both I find the history of its expression within the order of the Jesuits, the facts seem true, are they?

Futurism: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) is listed as the first to teach the first few chapters of the Revelations delt with pagan Rome, and the rest is future (3 1/2 literal years) just before the the second coming. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote two works similar in nature in 1581 and 1593. Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801) was also a Jesuit who wrote in 1791 about what is now know as futurism. The work can be found here: http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaAutor.html?Ref=3479&portal=3 Edward Irving (1792-1834) picked up one of the reprints and made a translation of it. The famous Margaret MacDonald 1830 was a member of the Irvinites and had a vision of what latter became the basis for the Rapture. (Personally, from what I know of John N. Darby's life and good Christian living, I accept Darby's history on this matter. He never was a lier and he claimed using a literal reading of the Bible he came to understand the Rapture.) This is what is said to be the foundation of Dispensationalism.

Preterism: Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) was Jesuit as well. He believed that Revelation chpt. 1-11 was the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Chpt. 12 - 19 was the downfall of Pagan Rome, etc.

hummm......

Did you notice how both the futurist and the preterist views could not acknowledge the rise of antichrist in their time? The futurist tells us the antichrist is coming and the preterist tells us the antichrist has come.

Something to think about.
 

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,014
17,404
USA
✟1,749,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
JM said:
What are the roots of futurism & preterism? When I google both I find the history of its expression within the order of the Jesuits, the facts seem true, are they?

Futurism: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) is listed as the first to teach the first few chapters of the Revelations delt with pagan Rome, and the rest is future (3 1/2 literal years) just before the the second coming. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote two works similar in nature in 1581 and 1593. Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801) was also a Jesuit who wrote in 1791 about what is now know as futurism. The work can be found here: http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaAutor.html?Ref=3479&portal=3 Edward Irving (1792-1834) picked up one of the reprints and made a translation of it. The famous Margaret MacDonald 1830 was a member of the Irvinites and had a vision of what latter became the basis for the Rapture. (Personally, from what I know of John N. Darby's life and good Christian living, I accept Darby's history on this matter. He never was a lier and he claimed using a literal reading of the Bible he came to understand the Rapture.) This is what is said to be the foundation of Dispensationalism.


...
hummm......

Did you notice how both the futurist and the preterist views could not acknowledge the rise of antichrist in their time? The futurist tells us the antichrist is coming and the preterist tells us the antichrist has come.

Something to think about.

The roots of futurism is in scripture. And things like the two I post below (I add some of the bold or underline):


The Didache, approx. 80 - 110 AD:

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.





Did you ever read Hippolytus (170-236 AD)?

Commentary on Daniel:

For through the Scriptures we are instructed in two advents of the Christ and Saviour. And the first after the flesh was in humiliation, because He was manifested in lowly estate. So then His second advent is declared to be in glory; for He comes from heaven with power, and angels, and the glory of His Father. His first advent had John the Baptist as its forerun-her; and His second, in which He is to come in glory, will exhibit Enoch, and Elias, and John the Divine.(66) Behold, too, the Lord's kindness to man; how even in the last times He shows His care for mortals, and pities them. For He will not leave us even then without prophets, but will send them to us for our instruction and assurance, and to make us give heed to the advent of the adversary, as He intimated also of old in this Daniel. For he says, "I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed." For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times.(67) And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a "thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth; "(68) and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. "And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will."(69) And when they have proclaimed all these things they will fall on the sword, cut off by the accuser(70) . And they will fulfil their testimony, as Daniel also says; for he foresaw that the beast that came up out of the abyss would make war with them, namely with Enoch, Elias, and John, and would overcome them, and kill them, because of their refusal to give glory to the accuser. that is the little horn that sprang up.(71) And he, being lifted up in heart, begins in the end to, exalt himself and glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Anderlecht

Regular Member
Aug 18, 2005
242
10
✟15,622.00
Faith
Christian
FreeinChrist said:
The roots of futurism is in scripture (...) The Didache, approx. 80 - 110 AD: (...) Did you ever read Hippolytus (170-236 AD)?...
I don't understand your logic of saying "futurism is in scripture" and then immediately quoting Didache and Hippolytus right after. How about just doing this:

"futurism is in scripture" ---> quote scripture

Or am I supposed to be first indoctrinate myself with man-made interpretations, and then after being fully programmed with that jump to scripture and look for confirmation of my bias. That's how dispensationalism works, isn't it? Nice try ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM
Upvote 0

Soon Rev 22:11-12

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2005
549
13
✟760.00
Faith
Christian
Origins of the Three Interpretations

confused.gif


Historicism - The Protestant Interpretation

Futurism - The Secret Rapture Hoax

Preterism - The Problems With Preterism
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM
Upvote 0

holdon

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,375
97
65
✟6,041.00
Faith
Christian
Soon Rev 22:11-12 said:

Are you pumping this from the same source that says:

"The doctrine of a personal devil, or devils, is a spiritual miasma; it is itself an evil spirit, of which a man must become dispossessed before he can become mentally clothed, and in his right mind."

The devil doesn't exist theory....

He would certainly like us to believe that. But he is a liar from the beginning...
 
Upvote 0
D

Driver

Guest
holdon said:
Are you pumping this from the same source that says:

"The doctrine of a personal devil, or devils, is a spiritual miasma; it is itself an evil spirit, of which a man must become dispossessed before he can become mentally clothed, and in his right mind."

The devil doesn't exist theory....

He would certainly like us to believe that. But he is a liar from the beginning...
I couldn't find that quote from that website after googling it. It would be surprising if it came from them...could you provide the link and the context?
 
Upvote 0

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟746,824.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Upvote 0

holdon

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,375
97
65
✟6,041.00
Faith
Christian
Driver said:
I couldn't find that quote from that website after googling it. It would be surprising if it came from them...could you provide the link and the context?

Here is the source for that quote:

http://www.antipas.org/books/chris_astray/ca_lec07.html

I got there by clicking on some article by "antipas" on the first website mentioned by "soon etc.". This brings you to the "christadelphians" website in question. Who knows what "christadelphians" are, but the article doesn't leave a good impression...

Look also under for other articles: "you will never go to heaven" and "doctrine of Trinity refuted", etc..

WARNING: A lot of garbage. Antichristian.
 
Upvote 0
D

Driver

Guest
holdon said:
Here is the source for that quote:

http://www.antipas.org/books/chris_astray/ca_lec07.html

I got there by clicking on some article by "antipas" on the first website mentioned by "soon etc.". This brings you to the "christadelphians" website in question. Who knows what "christadelphians" are, but the article doesn't leave a good impression...

Look also under for other articles: "you will never go to heaven" and "doctrine of Trinity refuted", etc..

WARNING: A lot of garbage. Antichristian.
I agree, but that's not the same web site that JB and SoonRev referred and linked to.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

holdon

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,375
97
65
✟6,041.00
Faith
Christian
Driver said:
I agree, but that's not the same web site that JB and SoonRev referred and linked to.

No, but that seems to be an important website for "historicist.com"

If they (historicist.com) were to be taken seriously, they wouldn't publish such nonsense and link to serious antichristian error.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,014
17,404
USA
✟1,749,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Anderlecht said:
I don't understand your logic of saying "futurism is in scripture" and then immediately quoting Didache and Hippolytus right after. How about just doing this:

"futurism is in scripture" ---> quote scripture

Or am I supposed to be first indoctrinate myself with man-made interpretations, and then after being fully programmed with that jump to scripture and look for confirmation of my bias. That's how dispensationalism works, isn't it? Nice try ;)

I wrote:

"The roots of futurism is in scripture. And things like the two I post below .."

Please note:
"The roots of futurism is in scripture. And things like the two I post below .."

Why did I quote the two ECF, you are wondering? Because of the OP. Did you read it? Apparently not.
His implication is that futurism is the result of some fellow named Ribera. That is what "roots of" is supposed to mean. :doh: I posted two simple things that show a future view well before Ribera. I was addressing the point that was made with a counter-argument showing it was false.


I never implied that you should read ECF and then develop a biased view of scripture. Or indcotrination. That is a very false accusation on your part. As for myself, I came to my view through scripture study and read the ECF much later.

So nice try at criticizing me - it just shows bias on your part.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
145,014
17,404
USA
✟1,749,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
holdon said:
No, but that seems to be an important website for "historicist.com"

If they (historicist.com) were to be taken seriously, they wouldn't publish such nonsense and link to serious antichristian error.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

AMEN!!! :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0
D

Driver

Guest
holdon said:
No, but that seems to be an important website for "historicist.com"

If they (historicist.com) were to be taken seriously, they wouldn't publish such nonsense and link to serious antichristian error.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Like the "right dividing" hyper-dispies who have hijacked this forum? lol
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anderlecht

Regular Member
Aug 18, 2005
242
10
✟15,622.00
Faith
Christian
holdon said:
No, but that seems to be an important website for "historicist.com"

If they (historicist.com) were to be taken seriously, they wouldn't publish such nonsense and link to serious antichristian error.
And who said that Historicist.com has to be perfect in order NOT to believe in dispensationalism? Is any website the "final authority" on it's own theology? If one non-dispensationalist web site is "bad" then despensationalism automatically becomes "good" or what?
 
Upvote 0

holdon

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
5,375
97
65
✟6,041.00
Faith
Christian
Anderlecht said:
And who said that Historicist.com has to be perfect in order NOT to believe in dispensationalism?
??? I don't understand this remark. They don't believe in "dispensationalism", that's for sure.
Is any website the "final authority" on it's own theology?
Well, apparently some think they are....
If one non-dispensationalist web site is "bad" then despensationalism automatically becomes "good" or what?
No, that's not what I said, did I?


But this is the Word of God:

Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.

And it applies both to historicists and dispensationalists.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.