Muslims - A Question !

elijah115 · Feb 23, 2006

in Surah 10:37, it is written:

37. This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah.
on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it,
and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the
Lord of the worlds.

Now the title of the Chapter is Called Jonah. Having read the bible the whole surah I find is a complete contradiction to its claim. Can somebody, read Jonah in the bible, and illutrate how Surah 10 is a fuller explanation of Jonah's book in the bible?

elijah115 · Feb 23, 2006

o................k

Bookofknowledge · Feb 23, 2006

elijah115 said:
Having read the bible

you mention "having read the bible" - you mean translated bible which is easily available in today's market?

Arthra · Feb 23, 2006

Elijah:

Now you wouldn't be just a little hostile here when you wrote:

"Having read the bible the whole surah I find is a complete contradiction to its claim. Can somebody, read Jonah in the Bible, and illutrate how Surah 10 is a fuller explanation of Jonah's book in the Bible"?

It's true that only one verse in the tenth Surih directly refers to Yunis or Jonah by name... there are also indirect references to prophetic mission and revelation that could apply to Jonah however.

In the Qur'an which we're talking about there are what I would call sudden powerful bursts of revelation...this to me is more the style of Qur'an so you will find Jonah mentioned in various Surihs as follows:

4:163,

6:86,

10:98,

21:87,

37:139-148,

So also was Jonah among those sent (by Us). When he ran away (like a slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden,
He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned: Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame. Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah, He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection. But We cast him forth on the naked shore in a state of sickness, And We caused to grow, over him, a spreading plant of the gourd kind. And We sent him (on a mission) to a hundred thousand (men) or more. And they believed; so We permitted them to enjoy (their life) for a while.

Another reference to Jonah is found in Surih 68:48-49

So wait with patience for the Command of thy Lord, and be not like the Companion of the Fish,- when he cried out in agony. Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore, in disgrace.

Now consider the story of Jonah in the Bible.

Does it say that Jonah cast lots and was condemned?

No.

Does it say a hundred thousand men or more were saved in Nineveh?

It does say it was a great city "in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, to say nothing of all the animals" - Jonah 4:11.

Does it say that Jonah was cast off on the shore naked and sick?

It says the fish vomited Jonah on to the shore.

Does it say Jonah cried out in agony?

Yes, in the Bible Jonah declares: "So now Lord take away my life for I might as well be dead as go on living." It laso said Jonah cried out to God in his distress...

What I notice here in comparing these two stories is that while the Book of Jonah is longer in the Bible it is summarized powerfully in the Qur'an in a few verses but with different information and with a different perspective.

Are there elements in the Book of Jonah that do not appear in Qur'an? Yes... but this doesn't mean the Qur'an is defficient. It means that the essence of the story is in Qur'an in a few powerful verses and with some added detail.

- Art

elijah115 · Feb 24, 2006

Arthra said:
In the Qur'an which we're talking about there are what I would call sudden powerful bursts of revelation...this to me is more the style of Qur'an so you will find Jonah mentioned in various Surihs as follows:

in the bible you'll also find jonah mentioned in other books

Does it say that Jonah cast lots and was condemned?

No.

Jonah 1:7

Then the sailors said to each other, "Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity." They cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah.

Does it say a hundred thousand men or more were saved in Nineveh?

It does say it was a great city "in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, to say nothing of all the animals" - Jonah 4:11.

Does it say that Jonah was cast off on the shore naked and sick?

It says the fish vomited Jonah on to the shore.

Does it say Jonah cried out in agony?

Yes, in the Bible Jonah declares: "So now Lord take away my life for I might as well be dead as go on living." It laso said Jonah cried out to God in his distress...

What I notice here in comparing these two stories is that while the Book of Jonah is longer in the Bible it is summarized powerfully in the Qur'an in a few verses but with different information and with a different perspective.

Are there elements in the Book of Jonah that do not appear in Qur'an? Yes...

Question answered. The quran does not provide a fuller explanation of the bible. That's an observation I think both you and I can argee on. You were mistaken when you said the bible does not mention casting lots. In fact, compared to the Quran there is a fair bit I can think of which ISNT mentioned in the Quran.

but this doesn't mean the Qur'an is defficient. It means that the essence of the story is in Qur'an in a few powerful verses and with some added detail.

Again, I have just proven that there's nothing in the Quran which adds detail to what is already in the bible. By cross-referencing the Book of Jonah with the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel we can even deduce more information about what type of city Nineveh was. There is no point which is mentioned is the Quran which was not already covered over a millenia before Mohammed came along, in prophecy rather than retrospect.

Do you think it is your unjustified opinion that the Quran contains powerful verses and with some detail given the evidence? (compared te the bible)

HumbleSiPilot77 · Feb 24, 2006

you mention "having read the bible" - you mean translated bible which is easily available in today's market?

What does this really mean? There are two attempts to derail the topic so far. The Bible account is the actual account that was passed on without any alteration or change, and the story has been told since the actual event took place with actual historical landmarks. Now 600 years later another "revelation" comes boldly and tries to rewrite the history... What proof do you have that what we read in today's market bible is not what we think?

Arthra · Feb 24, 2006

Elijah,

Thanks for your reply!

Elijah wrote:

"Again, I have just proven that there's nothing in the Quran which adds detail to what is already in the bible. By cross-referencing the Book of Jonah with the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel we can even deduce more information about what type of city Nineveh was. There is no point which is mentioned is the Quran which was not already covered over a millenia before Mohammed came along, in prophecy rather than retrospect.

"Do you think it is your unjustified opinion that the Quran contains powerful verses and with some detail given the evidence?"
__________________

Here is my reply to you my friend:

You were indeed quite correct regarding the casting of lots and this shows that the Qur'an was also accurate in covering that detail and not me.

I admit to being fallible at times but I still do not agree with you when you wrote:

"Again, I have just proven that there's nothing in the Quran which adds detail to what is already in the bible."

While you may believe this I don't think we've quite reached that point yet:

Do you recall the comparison I referred to above?

"Does it say that Jonah was cast off on the shore naked and sick?

It (the Bible) says the fish vomited Jonah on to the shore."

One thing the Qur'anic revelation does I think is give us a very different perspective which to me is very valid.

Can you visualize how Jonah must have appeared after being in that fish? And what condition he was in?

The Qur'an gives us some clues.

The example of Jonah that we're discussing is a good one but there are similar stories that we could look at and compare between the Qur'an and the Bible...

Another good example is where Mary is quoted in Surih 19:23 as saying:

"Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

There's really no parallel verse like that in the Gospels and it gives us a view of Mary that I think is refreshingly very human!

There are some other examples that come to mind but I'll stop here.

You further wrote:

"your unjustified opinion that the Quran contains powerful verses"

My opinion is that it is one characteristics of the Qur'anic revelation that a few verses as in Surih 37:139-148 summarize in a powerful way a lot of material in the Book of Jonah. Does this mean I'm demeaning the Bible? No... It's simply that the style of revelation is different.

Yes I agree indeed the Bible has a lot of detail historically and you were also correct when you mention the city of Nineveh having more detail in the other books of scripture.

Unlike some my view is that the Bible is inspired and has significance but that the Qur'an has a unique approach also.

- Art

elijah115 · Feb 25, 2006

i understand why you would try to justify both books, as bahai, but christianity doesn't allow for Islam? You can't believe the bible was inspired read 1 john (The Epistle) and think the same God inspired both the bible and the Quran. The naked and sick reference that you mention counts for nothing. The bible contains more than the Quran contains in the first instance. In addition to that we do not under any circumstances believe the Quran was inspired. The bible also makes a lot of it's characters more human than the Quran does . Every single king of Israel and Judah and every single prophet if understood from the bible could be taken as an example of a real person. For example Isaac loved Esau, Lot was an outcast in a rebellious community, Elijah felt that he was the only one left, Solomon was ensnared by his many wives. I could go on on that topic. I think it is very clear could that if you look at the story of Jonah, the Quran clearly doesn't provide us with as much information as the bible does. On that note, since no actual did address the topic, let us finish this discussion on that note. I'll choose another book, at some time in the future when I have spare time.

Bookofknowledge · Feb 25, 2006

elijah115 said:
yes i mean the translated bible

okay, give me the chapter number.

collect the information available in bible and Qu'raan and then analyze.

35:31
O Prophet, what We have revealed to you of the Book is the Truth, which confirms the previous scriptures. Surely, with respect to His servants, Allah is well Aware and fully Observant.

35:32
We have given the Book as an inheritance to those of Our servants (Muslims) whom We have chosen, among them there are some who wrong their own souls, some follow a middle course and some, by Allah's leave, excel in good deeds; which is the supreme virtue.

elijah115 · Feb 25, 2006

The bible isnt arranged like the Quran. It is ordered by books. First of all, please disregard the verses you quoted as it is not relevant from a Christian persepctive. IF you're still interested compare The Book of Jonah in the bible, with Surah 10.

www.biblegateway.com

peaceinislam · Feb 27, 2006

qur'an was written as revelation came. titles were given later to them. titles are not a summary of the chapter like the bible often is. but only a reference to something in the first few verses to recognise the chapter. comparing the chapter titled 'jonah' in the bible with 'jonah' in the qur'an is based on a simple misunderstanding. stuff was also mensioned about 'historical landmarks', which i think were irrelevant.

S Walch · Feb 27, 2006

Err. "Jonah" isn't the title of a Chapter - it's a Title of a BOOK.

The Bible Compromises of 66 BOOKS (+6 if you're cath/EO?).

Therefore The Bible is basically a Library of Books, within a book.

Also, Titles are usualy derived from the Names of the Book whom they were written by, or who they were about bar some books (such as the First 5, plus Revelation atm comes to mind)

peaceinislam · Feb 27, 2006

so what?

elijah115 · Feb 27, 2006

peaceinislam said:
qur'an was written as revelation came. titles were given later to them. titles are not a summary of the chapter like the bible often is. but only a reference to something in the first few verses to recognise the chapter. comparing the chapter titled 'jonah' in the bible with 'jonah' in the qur'an is based on a simple misunderstanding. stuff was also mensioned about 'historical landmarks', which i think were irrelevant.

I think this is a very bad presumption on your part. I know the Quran doesn't stick to following what the title says. But also know the Surah Jonah contains the most info on Jonah. So it is the most logical chapter to compare with the Book of Jonah. Did you know the gospels also contain references to jonah? Thanks for the info, but no thanks. I already knew that.

NOTW · Feb 27, 2006

Bookofknowledge said:
you mention "having read the bible" - you mean translated bible which is easily available in today's market?

Where is the original version you are trying to refer to?
How was the Bible corrupted?
Who corrupted the Bible?

Don't try to infer ideas you cannot support!

Islam_mulia · Feb 27, 2006

NOTW said:
Where is the original version you are trying to refer to?
How was the Bible corrupted?
Who corrupted the Bible?

Don't try to infer ideas you cannot support!

Who said the Bible was corrupted? The Quran NEVER mentions the Bible. What you have is not the Injeel, Zabur and Taurat but only remnants of the original message.

elijah115 · Feb 27, 2006

lets think Gen - Deut? Joshua - Malachi ! O yes you wont see any of those books being used in Judaism, right?

NOTW · Feb 27, 2006

Islam_mulia said:
Who said the Bible was corrupted? The Quran NEVER mentions the Bible. What you have is not the Injeel, Zabur and Taurat but only remnants of the original message.

Looks like someone needs to know more about origin of books!

The "Injeel" in itself means the "Gospels", thus when you refer to the Injeel, you mean the Bible, but you refer to the Gospels instead.

Second of all, in all of the Jewish Canon there is no such thing as Zabur, the Qur'an made that book up.
The Jewish canon consists of:
Torah (a.k.a. Pentateuch, Greek for 5 books) - The Law. Consists of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deutronomy.
Nebiim (neh-veh-eem) - The Prophets. Consists of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zaphaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, Malachi.
Ketubim (Ke-tu-veem) - The Writings. Consists of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1&2 Chronicles.

All these are the basic Old Testament canon and right from the Tanakh.

So, could you please show me where "Zabur" came from?

elijah115 · Feb 27, 2006

The sabians?

Islam_mulia · Feb 27, 2006

NOTW said:
Looks like someone needs to know more about origin of books!

The "Injeel" in itself means the "Gospels", thus when you refer to the Injeel, you mean the Bible, but you refer to the Gospels instead.

'You' here refers to Christians, not Muslims. The 'Injeel' is the revelations given to Jesus (pbuh) which he preached during his lifetime. What you have are gospels (according) to Mak, Mt, Lk, Jn which consists of some messages of the original Injeel plus others that are not.

NOTW said:
Second of all, in all of the Jewish Canon there is no such thing as Zabur, the Qur'an made that book up.
The Jewish canon consists of:
Torah (a.k.a. Pentateuch, Greek for 5 books) - The Law. Consists of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deutronomy.
Nebiim (neh-veh-eem) - The Prophets. Consists of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zaphaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, Malachi.
Ketubim (Ke-tu-veem) - The Writings. Consists of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1&2 Chronicles.

All these are the basic Old Testament canon and right from the Tanakh.

So, could you please show me where "Zabur" came from?

The Zabur is the revelations given to Prophet Daud (David) pbuh.

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