Abortion

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Abortion is never ok.

Doctors can be wrong about the mother's death.

A baby conceived from rape can cure diseases, or do anything wonderful with its life. It does not deserve to die because of someone else's mistakes


Read here if interested
http://www.abortionismurder.com/

Look at the pictures here if you support abortion, get real folks, its murder!
http://www.abortionismurder.com/notconvinced.shtml

I am not up for a debate today, check the pics and see for yourself. Make your own conclusions after a peek into reality!

Interesting thread.

The "what-ifs" and "supposedlys" and the heaping upon situations more qualifiers makes for an interesting argument, but is it real? How about some numbers? How many abortions are performed under the hypothetical situations you describe? Roe vs Wade has been around for a long time, how many followup studies have been done for the abortions performed under the hypothetical situations?

Long before I got married, I used to be a proponent of abortion. A woman should have the right to say what goes on inside her own body. Birth control and abortion both empower women, to choose how their lives will be.

Hmmmm. What do we find in the thirty or so years since both have become readily available? Are women of equal standing with men in the world of business, politics, commerce, science, ANYTHING? Are marriages more stable? Has child abuse decreased?

Women may have gained a small increment in the business world, but for the most part, they are in the lower-paying, less-responsible jobs. There are more single parents, more divorces, and child abuse and neglect has increased. About the only thing abortion and birth control have done is to DECREASE the number of infants available for adoption. Funny, though, because more OLDER children, mixed-racial children, and disabled children are available.

What are you solving with abortion? Or even with birth control? A study of the statistics seems to point at an INCREASE in societal ills. So justifying abortion in a very narrow category of instances isn't really accomplishing anything. Why waste all the effort in constructing grand hypothetical castles in the sky when young girls are indeed throwing babies into the dumpster, children are being herded into foster care at alarming numbers, and families are breaking down at a faster rate than marriages can create them?

What changed MY mind on the legality or propriety of abortion? My very first pregnancy. Once you have felt the miracle of life within you, once you have beheld the precious gift from God in your arms, the discussion is absolutely fruitless, in my book. We're talking about LIFE.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

one more:

http://www.abortionismurder.com/graphics/f-insanity.jpg

As always, I cannot understand those "absolute" positions.

"If a men were to threaten my wife, I would be justified to kill him."

A summerized position from the "love of God" thread in "Current events"

"If a medical condition would cause the death of my wife in childbirth, I am still not justified to kill the fetus."

Summerized position from this thread.

"If I stand aside and let my wife be killed, I am guilty of murder myself."

Position from the "love of God" thread.

"If I stand aside and let my wife die in childbirth, it is surely God´s will."

Position from this thread.



And you still tell me that morals are absolute?

Originally posted by Mallory Knox


Yes. But we're not allowed to call them "the bottom line"

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Why can't we call it the bottom line? If it is pertaining to our own opinion, It would be the bottom line for us.

But whether or not that life is a person, a baby, that's debatable.

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Ummm what else could it be? I'm almost afraid to ask!

And live the rest of your life forced to remember that terrible moment every time you look at yourself? You would be destroyed. That "baby" isn't a baby yet and was never meant to be.

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Or I could look at the terrible thing that happened, and be thankful that I did the right thing and saved the life of an innocent baby, I would rather look at the good that could come out of it. I really don't think I would be any worse off for saving it's life.

If life is created then it most certainly is meant to be, Maybe I didn't intend for the life to be created, but maybe God has a greater purpose for it, a purpose we can't even begin to see.

Hi all!

I (an orthodox Jew) quote from a book I have on the (orthodox!) Jewish approach to various medical issues by Rabbi Dr. J. David Bleich:

"Judaism regards the killing of an unborn child to be a serious moral offense. An abortion may be performed only for the gravest of reasons, and even then, only subsequent to consultation with a competent [orthodox] rabbinic authority...The life of the mother takes precedence over that of the unborn
child. Thus, when 'hard travail' of labor endangers the life of the mother, an embryotomy may be performed in order to save her...The fetus' right to life is subordinate to that of the mother, and hence the life of the unborn fetus may be sacrificed in order to save her...The performance of an abortion may be warranted for purposes of preserving maternal health as well as maternal life. No [orthodox rabbinic] authority permits an abortion which is non-therapeutic in nature. There are early rabbinic authorities who expressly declare that ritual laws such as Sabbath observance and fasting on Yom Kippur are suspended in order to preserve the life of the fetus. Suspension of such significant religious observances is clearly incompatible with indiscriminate license to destroy fetal life. Both the argument that a prospective mother may seek an abortion for any reason because denial of this right would interfere with her 'right to privacy' as well as the argument that the decision to abort is entirely a matter between a woman and her physician must be rejected as incompatible with Jewish teaching...Judaism teaches that man does not enjoy unrestricted proprietary rights with regard to his own body, much less so with regard to the body of an unborn child...The Talmud teaches that embryo is endowed with a soul at conception. Moreover, the Sages taught: 'There are 3 partners in the generation of man - the father, the mother and God.' Accordingly, a decision to terminate pregnancy is not one which is within the exclusive domain of the mother...It is well established that the quality of life to be anticipated if the fetus is carried to term is not, in itself, a sufficient reason for the performance of an abortion...Physical or mental abnormalities do not affect the human status of the individual or his
right to life...Most authorities rule that termination of pregnancy resulting from rape is not permissible. However, the immediate post-coital contraceptive measures undertaken prior to fertilization of the ovum present a different but complex Jewish-law question. Immediate removal of the sperm by means of a suction device...would be warranted."

Thus, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism absolutely rejects abortion as a means of birth control. I certainly object to government funding for abortions that are non-therapeutic in nature.

However, we would completely reject vigilante violence against doctors, nurses, etc. who are involved in abortions (as well as inciting to violence against them) & to bombing clinics. Opposition to non-therapeutic abortions must be carried out within the bounds of the law.

Questions?

ssv

To Mallory:

But whether or not that life is a person, a baby, that's debatable.

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Ask the couple who has been undergoing fertility treatments and in vitro fertilization. They have all their hopes and dreams riding on that clump of cells! THEY would call it a life, a baby!

Ask the woman who has felt quickening for the first time. Ask the man who has had his hand on the woman's belly, and felt his child kick.

By your reasoning, if the baby is born with Down's Syndrome, should you not allow it to draw the first breath? What about the women in India who have sonograms, and if it's a girl, they undergo abortion?

How many more steps would it take to refuse medication from a person with a heart problem, or a diabetic, or a child with Cystic Fibrosis or Sickle Cell Anemia?

If all human life is NOT precious, then it's far, far too easy to justify killing off every undesirable, not just a fetus.


Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW

Hmmmm. What do we find in the thirty or so years since both have become readily available? Are women of equal standing with men in the world of business, politics, commerce, science, ANYTHING? Are marriages more stable? Has child abuse decreased?

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Unfortunately, I'm not sure we can draw many conclusions from this - lots of other things changed at the same time.

While I'm pretty sure abortion is a bad thing, I would not be the one to tell a little girl who was raped that she has to suffer for another nine months and be constantly reminded of the rape... In the end, I am inclined to leave moral decisions up to the individual. I don't think abortions should happen often; I think most people on both sides agree that abortion is, in general, a bad thing, a last resort if it is a resort at all.

Yes, theoretically, the doctor could be wrong about whether or not a woman will die from a complication. However... in the end, you find a lot of circumstances where you have to *GUESS*. You might lose the woman's life to get a stillborn baby. You might save the baby, and the woman might live. You don't know... and the best you can do is often to try to estimate your chances, and do the thing *most likely* to result in lives continuing.

I don't know what is, or isn't, a "life" in the moral sense. I don't think anyone but God knows for sure.

VOW, sometimes it is necessary for humans to make decisions they don´t like. All possible choices seem wrong, so they have to pick the one that is least wrong - in their view.

Sometimes it is necessary to put a value on human life - the life of a mother, the life of a child.

It is the most difficult decision any human can make - who will live and who will die, but sometimes, it has to be made.

Originally posted by VOW

Ask the couple who has been undergoing fertility treatments and in vitro fertilization. They have all their hopes and dreams riding on that clump of cells! THEY would call it a life, a baby!

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Yes, and if you ask a girl who was gang-raped, and would have no idea who the father was, but would be pretty sure he was one of the people who crippled her, she might say it's not a life, but an evil parasite. Some people undergoing fertility treatments might say they hope it becomes a life, because they don't want to call it a "life" when it's likely to miscarry.

I don't think the argument to the emotional importance of thinking of something as "life" is a strong argument logically.

How many more steps would it take to refuse medication from a person with a heart problem, or a diabetic, or a child with Cystic Fibrosis or Sickle Cell Anemia?

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Quite a few, and some of them very significant; the slippery slope isn't very slippery, if you distinguish between "people who have detectable brain functions" and "people-shaped things that do not have detectable brain functions", which is one common rule.

If all human life is NOT precious, then it's far, far too easy to justify killing off every undesirable, not just a fetus.

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This still leaves open the question of what exactly we mean when we talk about "human life". I don't think this is an easy question for anyone who doesn't have the ability to directly perceive and know souls.

Hi Mallory,

Acts, I am not talking about some woman accidentally getting pregnant and having an abortion.

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I guess I was still addressing the concept of abortion as a whole, including the rape scenario (I did address it at the end of my post though).

I understand the reasons why you think it would be unfair for a raped woman to carry the child of her attacker, I really do. But just as it is wrong to sexually attack another human being, it is also just as wrong to try to take the life of the resulting unborn child. Both the woman and the child are innocent.

Once the human life is created, trying to take it away will not make the situation right. It only creates another wrong in an already tragic situation. The point of my testimony was, regardless whether or not my Mom was raped, her pregnancy was as unintentional as a rape victim's. I was an unintentional "mistake" and I had the potential of altering my mother's life forever, regardless whether or not I was the product of a one night stand or a violent rape. Either way, my mother had to choose between upholding life and enduring hardship, or destroying me and trying to put the pieces of her life together.

I'm sure glad she chose the first option.

By the way, the phrase "bottom line" wasn't meant to be offensive and I'm sorry if you took it that way. It basically means "the point is". I certainly was not trying to use it in any other fashion.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Originally posted by Mallory Knox




I understand perfectly.

But I COULD get pregnant. It's not exactly unheard of.

It would be God's will if I was raped and got pregnant? It's God's will that that nine-year-old girl was raped by her grandfather and is now pregnant? Lovely.

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Yes you could get pregnant, it kinda happens that way, but you don't HAVE to. It is only by God's will that you do. The possibility of getting pregnant was never the issue, only the fact that God allows it.

AND it fits into God's will if you do get raped. Do I have to repeat myself in here?

"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." -Genesis 50:20

The raper intended to harm the girl, but God allows them to get pregnant to accomplish His own purpose. Do you know how many aborted kids might have found the cure for a disease? Or impacted someone else's life for the better? No and you never will. God intends something great for these children and you and your way of thinking want to kill them off before they get the chance.

"Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death." - Deuteronomy 22:26

It isn't the girls fault...

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16

Yes you could get pregnant, it kinda happens that way, but you don't HAVE to. It is only by God's will that you do. The possibility of getting pregnant was never the issue, only the fact that God allows it.

AND it fits into God's will if you do get raped. Do I have to repeat myself in here?

"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." -Genesis 50:20

The raper intended to harm the girl, but God allows them to get pregnant to accomplish His own purpose. Do you know how many aborted kids might have found the cure for a disease? Or impacted someone else's life for the better? No and you never will. God intends something great for these children and you and your way of thinking want to kill them off before they get the chance.

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But if you follow this line of reasoning:

if God allowed the rape, the pregnancy, to act his will - surely he also allowed the abortion to follow his will?

http://www.days.org/texaslaw/


Hey go and take this quiz, yea it's over Texas laws, but he answers will surprise you!!

They shocked me, by the way I got 22 right!!

To Seebs:

Gene mapping is a scientific reality, and it becomes more exact with each passing day. Already parents are given the option as to whether or not they should abort a child with Down's Syndrome. If a known trait is on the X chromosomes, a boy might be aborted to avoid passing on the trait. And the sex choice going on in India to dispose of unwanted female children is a reality.

Designer chromosomes are just around the corner. Methinks that not-so-slippery slope you profess is much steeper, and much slicker than you thought.

Whether you qualify it in your mind, in your conscious right now, the fact remains that in the United States, abortions are performed for the convenience of the mother. Period. And in the State of Oregon, you can obtain a prescription for a lethal amount of a painkiller and euthanize yourself.

HMOs are cutting back on expenses.

People are more disposable than you care to admit.



Peace,
~VOW

"For the Lord is not willing that any should perish"

"Thou shalt not kill"

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God was man made"

"If two men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
-Genesis 21:22-25

Don't you see that God doesn't like killing? And he evens declares a law against it in Genesis. The killing of a child cannot glorify God, and therefore cannot be part of His will.

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
"For the Lord is not willing that any should perish"

"Thou shalt not kill"

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God was man made"

"If two men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
-Genesis 21:22-25

Don't you see that God doesn't like killing? And he evens declares a law against it in Genesis. The killing of a child cannot glorify God, and therefore cannot be part of His will.

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Except when God commands killings, even mass slaughters of children, of course.

Has God commanded any abortions?

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Has God commanded any abortions?

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Err, yes, I think so. I can´t quite remember where, but it was something about molesting the women of an enemy so that they lost their fruit.

Somewhere in Joshua or Judges surely. I will see if I can find it.

Originally posted by VOW

People are more disposable than you care to admit.

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While I share this concern, I still think there's legitimate questions as to what is or isn't human life. It's a hard question for me. Quality, not just quantity, seems important to me. It's a tough issue.