Prosperity, wealth and the Gospel

"Again, you have yet to address..Christ was poor by the standards of that day. "

That's what your "poor as a church mouse" tradition tells you. And you've believed it. I've already addressed it, and you can't believe it bcos of tradition.

Christ died poor at the cross that we might be made rich. so stop living b4 the cross and start honouring what Christ has paid for you.

2Co 8:9* For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor [on the cross], that ye through his poverty [at the cross] might be rich.

if you understnd what divine exchange means, you'll get it

Amen Anthony!

Originally posted by Andrew
Christ died poor at the cross that we might be made rich. so stop living b4 the cross and start honouring what Christ has paid for you.

2Co 8:9* For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor [on the cross], that ye through his poverty [at the cross] might be rich.
it [/B]

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Interesting how the context of this verse is all about generous giving to the hardpressed.

The verse itself is about God's grace in becoming man and saving us, not about worldly wealthy Christ.

Even so, Christ was a carpenter and likely was not excessively poor unitll...He left it all behind for the call of his ministry, after which He owned very little. Even so, he was a carpenter in Nazereth (which was the armpit of Israel.) Even a rich man there was probably poor by other standards.

But seriously, this is so much speculation when the Scripture is clear.

I've enjoyed many of your responses, and I pray that you may be led as you continue this discussion, but I must move on. Thank you all for your time.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

"2Co 8:9* For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor [on the cross], that ye through his poverty [at the cross] might be rich. "

Funny how you don't understand this verse at all. In the context of the passage he is clearly speaking about things other then material weath, for God in essence has no material wealth at all does he? He has no need for it.

"Funny how you don't understand this verse at all."

ditto Louis.

according to your faith be it unto you. you are free to hold on to the tradtional interpretation.

"you are free to hold on to the tradtional interpretation."

and I will, for God made people of faith sick in the bible, take job for example. It went away when God deemed it was time, not because of Job's faith. Wealth doesn't come by faith.

1. God has given us all things that pertain to live and godliness... If this is so (and it is) then what material things or spiritual things have not been given to us?
2. God wants us to prosper and to be in health even as our soul prospers. If your soul prospers then so too will you prosper and be in health.
3. All the promises of God are yes and amen. What can you think of that is not covered by the promises of God? There is nothing.

quote: "3. All the promises of God are yes and amen. What can you think of that is not covered by the promises of God? There is nothing."

I'll AMEN that! And its all possible becos of Jesus' sacrifice! Divine exchanges!

Someone (as usual to try and justify this perverse thought that God is a meal ticket) is taking things OUT OF CONTEXT.

Someone (as usual to try and justify this perverse thought that God is a meal ticket) is taking things OUT OF CONTEXT.

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I like psalms 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

There are just so many promises in the scriptures that display the love of God for us in this way. It really is not a 'meal ticket'... any more than my love for my children leads me to care for their needs. Your response is really not a commentary on the Bible or the provisions of God... it is a personal evaluation of my motivations.
Does the fact that I accept and rejoice in the salvation of my soul make God a 'salvation ticket'? Is it "perverse" to use God in this way also? I don't think so.

I like 35:27
Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

I am seeing that God takes pleasure in this and certainly does not consider my faith in His provision as perverse... far from it:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

He is pleased when we believe Him. To believe God means to believe His Word. It is required that I see Him as a rewarder of my seeking in that Word.



www.bereanonline.com

I sometimes wonder, if those whom 'God has prospered' were to lose all their wealth in a stock market crash tomorrow, how would this affect their view of God? Would it prove they were in sin? Or lacked faith? Would it shatter their faith that God is good and keeps his promises? Would they become bitter and resentful of others more fortunate? Would they 'rebuke the devil' and confess that they were still rich?

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Well I can remember not having what I have today. It really had nothing to do with sin... more like ignorance. I really had to change my image of what God is like from the traditional view to that of a loving Father who cares for us and our needs. I stopped bad mouthing God and saying He wanted me and my family to suffer... and instead began to praise Him for all that He has done for us in Christ Jesus. Then things began to turn around.

What about following the example of Christ who, for our sake, became poor?

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This is true... just as He became sin for us, (so we would not have to suffer under weight of it) He also became poor for our sakes so that by His poverty we might be made rich.

What about rejoicing in all circumstances?

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We rejoice in the midst of evil... not for the evil, but for the deliverance and the provision that He has given us to overcome it.

What about taking no thought for food, clothes, the future etc., but seeking first God's Kingdom and trusting him to provide what is needful for this life?

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Why do you assume that these people have neglected seeking the Kingdom of God? They are in fact trusting Him to provide that which is needful in this life. In fact, it says that these things would be added unto those who do. Why not just assume that they have fulfilled the seeking part and are now reaping the benefits just as Jesus said they would?

What about having our hearts set on heavenly matters, rather than treasuring the things of this world?

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Why do you assume that their hearts are not set on heavenly matters? You are making a lot of judgemental assumptions about these folks who you do not even know.

Please can Andrew, or anyone else, supply me with clear, contextual proof from the New Testament that Christians should pry to God to pour riches into their bosoms, enable them to live in the lap of luxury etc.?

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It is really not a matter of luxury. I believe in needs being met by the provision He has provided. "Luxury" is a matter of degree. People living in the poorest slum in America are in much better shape than the poor of Africa and Asia. The American slum is a relative "lap of luxury" to the poor in these places. I am sure those who preach poverty as the will of God for His people have never lived in true poverty themselves or they would not advocate it so strongly. I have seen my children hungry and poorly clothed, and this is no blessing. I have seen children sick and I have seen death. This is not a blessing. There is nothing 'good' in these things. God is better, higher, and more loving than any earthly father. What loving earthly father would place sickness, or will sickness on his children? What loving earthly father would will poverty on his own children? None that I know of. No sane one anyway.

"He also became poor for our sakes so that by His poverty we might be made rich. "

False conclusion. In Phil 2:5-8 it clearly shows that we should be humble in our earnings and what rights we have. I want to ask you this: If you are poor does that mean you aren't faithful enough?

"It is required that I see Him as a rewarder of my seeking in that Word. "

Yes, but not by MATERIAL rewards. God rewards us spiritually, NOT materially.

"There is nothing 'good' in these things. "

I have a man in a wheelchair you need to meet. He says he is blessed by being in it. I think you need to consider this postion and thing about it before saying there are no blessings there. You're wrong. God's will might be for someone to be crippled, so that they might reach people like them others couldn't reach. Do you think a rich man can relate to a poor man. Nope.

"What loving earthly father would will poverty on his own children?"

This is the part you go wrong. You're using HUMAN logic to figure out God. Paul was blinded and had to find his way back..what purpose did this serve? None at all. Seeing God was enough for Paul, for he repented when he saw Christ.

"I have a man in a wheelchair you need to meet. He says he is blessed by being in it."

I'd say he's 1) out of his mind or 2) just consoling himself. If it's such a blessing to be in a wheelchair, then why aren't Christians and even non-christians getting into wheelchairs? I dont remember Jesus saying "blessed are the lame".

quote: "Yes, but not by MATERIAL rewards. God rewards us spiritually, NOT materially. "

Seek ye first the kingdom of God....and all these things shall be added unto you.....

Wasnt Jesus talking about material things too - like clothing and food. If you are starving or naked, do you eat spiritual food and wear spiritual clothes?

Mt 7:11* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

"Good things" sure sounds like it includes material things too.

QUOTE: ""What loving earthly father would will poverty on his own children?" This is the part you go wrong. You're using HUMAN logic to figure out God."

Hmmm if that's true, then Jesus must be making the same error too - "using human logic" when He said.

Mt 7:11* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 11: 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12* Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give good things and the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

I want to ask you this: If you are poor does that mean you aren't faithful enough?

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Sometimes it does! Not "faithful" in a religous way, but "full of faith" in the spiritual way. Again and again Jesus points this out to people who failed to receive healing. They simply did not believe.

we should be humble in our earnings and what rights we have...

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Being humble is an interesting concept to apply to health and prosperity. I am not sure Jesus was applying this principle when He went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil. The meaning of being humble is to not promote the good qualities you have in the eyes of others. You wouild have to be rich before you could be financially humble. Empoverished people have nothing to be "humble" about.

"It is required that I see Him as a rewarder of my seeking in that Word. "

Yes, but not by MATERIAL rewards. God rewards us spiritually, NOT materially.

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I am not sure what a "spiritual reward" is. However, God has already given us every spiritual blessing:

Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

There is really nothing left for Him to give us. We have it all. We got it all when we were born again and were made new creatures in Christ. What is it that you imagine that you do not have? What virtue, blessing, attribute do you not have that you think God is withholding from you? "All things are yours" means just that.

I have a man in a wheelchair you need to meet. He says he is blessed by being in it. I think you need to consider this postion and thing about it before saying there are no blessings there.

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It is unfortunate that this man is in this chair. He may think he is blessed, but if he had run up on Jesus in 31 AD, Jesus would have "unblessed" him by pulling him out of that chair! (Jesus healed all!) And I am sure the man would have rejoiced in it.

You're wrong. God's will might be for someone to be crippled, so that they might reach people like them others couldn't reach.

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Absolutely wrong. It is never the perfect will of God that any of His children suffer in such way. We never see this in the life and ministry of Jesus. Jesus is the exact image of the Father. If Jesus did not do it, then it was not the will of the Father. Jesus never put anyone into a wheelchair to reach others. Jesus never failed to heal those who exercised faith. Jesus used healing and blessings to save the lost. There is not one recorded instance of Jesus using curses to win the lost. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil... not enhance them.

Do you think a rich man can relate to a poor man. Nope.

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I suppose a live man cannot relate to a dead one either. But having compassion toward people is a trait of the spirit of Christ in us... it is not something we have to learn. Compassion is a fruit of the spirit. You need only grow it.


Col 3:10
and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge [GLOW=crimson]after the image of him that created him[/GLOW] :...
12 Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

Just "put on" the outside what He has already put inside you!

"What loving earthly father would will poverty on his own children?"

This is the part you go wrong. You're using HUMAN logic to figure out God.

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And this is exactly the way Jesus said for us to figure God out. Again and again he uses this metaphor. He calls God our Father and we are called His children. These words have meaning. He did not just use them for fun. Jesus is saying without qualification that God is taking the part of a father and we the part of the children. The words on the mount illustrate this perfectly:


Mat 7:
9 Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone;
10 or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

I know how to give good gifts to my kids... and there is not a wheelchair or homelessness in the list. How much more is our Father good? Lots more! And He has a lot more presents in His store and lots more resources to bless with.

Paul was blinded and had to find his way back..what purpose did this serve? None at all. Seeing God was enough for Paul, for he repented when he saw Christ.

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I will grant you a couple hours of blindness if you insist. But then, like Paul, you will have to be healed of it. He did not remain blind to win anyone or for some imagined virtue. Nor did he advocate anyone blinding themself or remaining blind.

If blindness and wheelchairs are blessings, then why are there no such gifts of the spirit? The gift of blinding. The working of wheelchairs. Why did Jesus not carry a cart load of wheelchairs everywhere he went and bless people with palsy? Where did He ever apply spit to anyone's eyes and bless them with blindness? Of course I am being silly to make a point. It is admirable that people are stalwart in the midst of (misguided)suffering... but it is just not the way God wants us to be "blessed." Like any good father, He wants us well. Any reasonable sane person would much rather be healthy than sick. Any reasonable sane person would rather have their needs met than to be in poverty.

BOY!

I believe Louis when he says the man he knows in the wheelchair feels he's blessed by his disability.

Suffering sanctifies some people. Most of us don't have the strength to LET suffering sanctify us. God may not INTENTIONALLY inflict the suffering upon us, I don't believe that. However, if we let Him, He can use our suffering for His Glory.

I think that is the whole conflict in this thread: humans trying to tell GOD what they want HIM to do, and humans LETTING GOD do what He must. God is not Santa Claus. We don't sit in His lap and tell Him all the nice things we should be entitled to because we are Christians.

Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me." That Cross is not light, it's not polished, it's not gold-plated. It's heavy, it's dirty, it has splinters, and it's DETESTED by the world.

Re-read the Beatitudes. They are a lesson in humility!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

2 Corinthians 9:6-7
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Phillipians 4:16
for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. Not that I was looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, not that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Jesus Christ.

Without the giving of the Phillipians, Paul's mission trip to Thessalonica would not have been funded. This is a great example of where our offerings go. To see God's will and purpose done in places where we ourselves are not able to go. Our other tithes/offerings go into our local church to see the church run/maintenance/staff wages etc.

Two things I would like to point out here. Don't confuse money with 'the love' of money. Money or material wealth is but resource for our life here while we do His will and purpose in the world.

There are 2 ways to get 'rich'. Firstly is to give , secondly is to be good stewards with what we have. When we have a spirit of giving, God will see that we are blessed more and more to see His kingdom flourish. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about getting rich for one's own material wealth, but when we're comitted to seeing the kingdom of God grow through our giving, we shall be blessed so that we can be greater blessings.

Oh, there's a third way which I've just thought of to get rich, which I'm sure that God will approve. WORK HARD and HONESTLY to EARN it! When we pray for prosperity, our finances or a job, we should then STAND on what we have prayed for and ACT on it! Work hard for that promotion. Be an example in your workplace. Invest wisely! If you're looking for a job, don't pray and sit there expecting a job to pop up from nowhere! Get up early! Apply to as many jobs as you can, and if none are fruitful, apply some more! I'm disappointed at Christians who pray for prosperity and then do nothing expecting God to 'rain money' down on them. They are no better than those who are already rich and 'covet' their wealth.

1. Work hard!
2. Be a good steward of what you have!
3. Give!

The lowest level of Christianity is being blessed. The highest is to be a blessing!