We complicate the answer we all seek

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 23, 2006

Hi all, just signed up today.

Wow, lots of different takes on the few things I have read.

It is amazing how much is taken from scripture. I mean, the scriptures are in English. The sentences read well enough in the NKJV, and later, more translated versions too.

It would be interesting on some debates just to read what the Bible says, then look at some of the responses. Don't get me wrong, the Bible was inspired, perserved and here today because God wanted it to be, but the difficulty in some of the answers to peoples questions can be simply read, by the person asking.

I mean, either we belive that the Bible is 100% God's work, or it is not. If it is, then read what the Bible says about any specific question and we will get the answers we seek. Again either it is or it is not.

Questionair Warriors (including myself)

Perhaps we may ask "where does the Bible say this about that?"

I beleive that because the Bible is God's word, by us reading it we will understand what so many others before us, right now and the future have come to understand as not only life saving, but amazing too.

Then it is either excepted or not.

Thanks

DailyBlessings · Feb 24, 2006

Welcome to CF! :wave:

But I think you oversimplify. It should be clear, looking over the morass of posts, that the meaning of many passages is not always evident to all. If your ultimatum is necessary, then the answer would be "no", and I doubt this is what you are going for. Luckily, I don't think theological disputes really are an all or nothing deal. We are none of us perfect, and all of us still have something to learn from one another. Not simple, it's true, but no one promised that our journey through faith would be easy.

EJO · Feb 24, 2006

The Bible is the inspired word of God. as you said. It is also important that you are filled with the Holy Spirit in order to understand it. It will only be 'just a book' if you are not seeking the Lord and desireing it change your life.

Torah613 · Feb 24, 2006

Eathin_Hunt said:
Hi all, just signed up today.

Wow, lots of different takes on the few things I have read.

It is amazing how much is taken from scripture. I mean, the scriptures are in English. The sentences read well enough in the NKJV, and later, more translated versions too.

It would be interesting on some debates just to read what the Bible says, then look at some of the responses. Don't get me wrong, the Bible was inspired, perserved and here today because God wanted it to be, but the difficulty in some of the answers to peoples questions can be simply read, by the person asking.

I mean, either we belive that the Bible is 100% God's work, or it is not. If it is, then read what the Bible says about any specific question and we will get the answers we seek. Again either it is or it is not.

Questionair Warriors (including myself)

Perhaps we may ask "where does the Bible say this about that?"

I beleive that because the Bible is God's word, by us reading it we will understand what so many others before us, right now and the future have come to understand as not only life saving, but amazing too.

Then it is either excepted or not.

Thanks

The problem is, it is both God's work, and sometimes it has to be interpreted to answer specific questions that arise in today's society. The answers are there, they just require more thought and reflection than simply reaching for the strongs concordance.

Then again is that not the whole point of Christianity. The Bible is there espousing the Christian Ideal, and therefore through contemplation and reflection on the scriptures we transform ourselves to that ideal.

Noone reads the bible and doesn't interpret it. Its a natural human reaction. Some interpret it "literally" or rather as close as they can get it, some other protestants interpret it according to whatever system they have (life experiences, the teachings of their denominations' respective founders, etc.), Catholics interpret it according to tradition and the teachings of the Pope, Anglicans interpret it according to reason and tradition, and Orthodox interpret it according to tradition ("What have the saints said about this scripture and this tradition? etc.").

Everyone interprets as they see it.

Joe Zollars

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 24, 2006

Thank you for your responses.

If I may, for a moment, show how my mind works on this subject.

If someone is asking "do we have to stop completely at a red stoplight?". One may interpet that slowing down (even real slow), taking a very good look around, then rolling through the light, is ok. After all there are three colors of lights and someone else told them that they are experts and know you are allowed to roll through carefully without stopping, but the question is about the red one and having to come to a stop.

Then there becomes a discussion on how much to slow down, how long to look, which stoplight are we talking, does it have a green arrow, what if you are turning right on red and so on.

Then (with reference to this thread) someone says "well what do the laws actually say about this?" Law (making this up because I have not memorzied the drivers book)
141-1 says that you must come to a complete stop.

That kind of sums up the whole question and answer phase because that seems very clear by the law choosing the word "complete"

Then it comes down to do we choose to agree with it or not. And my point was- getting to that point clarifies the situation much better, meaning read for yourself and come up with an answer. I beleive that the Bible is clear as day for a true Christian (one that has excepted Christ) Then we can use creative ways (parables) to further explain what God intended for our lives for non-Christians and Chritians alike strugling for answers they seek.

It will end up though with "does the individual except God's word or not?"

Thanks and gl

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

But the bible isn't a rule book - except for some bits of Leviticus and so forth most of which we ignore. The vast majority of the bible describes, in a variety of literary forms, people's encounters with God. To treat that as a set of facts and rules analogous to the "road rules" is to through away it's true value as a teaching tool and force it into a role it is clearly not designed to fill.

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 24, 2006

Ebia,

Not sure if we agree or disagree #

Did I make the Bible sound like a rule book? I guess so because of the analogy.

The questions people seek are all written in the Bible, and if there is one thing I was driving at is to read what God wants us to do, then choose to follow Him or not.

Once that decision has been made by any individual then it clarifies the position any one person is making.

If we want to follow the teachings of God then we must seek his wisdom. If we choose not to follow we usually follow our feelings. On that thought:

1. I do not feel like serving at Church all the time. But I do and receive the blessing from it.
2. I do not feel like being a father and husban all the time but I do and have a healthy family.
3. I do not feel like going to work all the time but I do and pay the bills and support my family.

I other words I would not go by feelings all together because we can not trust them 100%. We can however trust the word of God.

Hope that helps, sincerely

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

We can however trust the word of God.

The point is to trust God, however he is speaking to us. Putting your faith in the bible is putting the cart before the horse.

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 24, 2006

Ebia,

Thank you for you response. Please forgive me- I do not understand your point "putting the cart before the horse" in this context.

Are you saying that in your opinion the we should trust God but not His written word?

Or are you saying (or repeating what God has already said) that non-Chrstians will not understand the Bible? So get saved then read.

Thank you,

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

Are you saying that in your opinion the we should trust God but not [the bible]?

Yes. It's God that is deserving of trust, not any one medium through which he communicates.

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 24, 2006

Ok for the record I beleive the Bible is the work of God.

So I will disagree with you and pray for you. That is the way I have been taught so please do not be upset over that.

I do not know how you do it with out the word of God- which you do not believe is truth.

When you say "God" are you talking about the God of the world? Like all God's are the same? Zues, Thor, Holy Cows and so on?

To me this is interesting.

Thanks again for your repsonse. Sincerely.

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

Eathin_Hunt said:
Ok for the record I beleive the Bible is the work of God.

Work or word? The Word of God is Christ. The bible is one means through which the Word of God speaks to us. Don't confuse the medium of communication with the message.

So I will disagree with you and pray for you. That is the way I have been taught so please do not be upset over that.

I'm not upset.

I do not know how you do it with out the word of God- which you do not believe is truth.

I didn't say the bible wasn't true. I said the bible is not where our trust should be. The bible is at most a means to an end, not the end in itself.

When you say "God" are you talking about the God of the world? Like all God's are the same? Zues, Thor, Holy Cows and so on?

I'm talking about the Christian God.

humbledbyhim · Feb 24, 2006

Eathin_Hunt said:
Ok for the record I beleive the Bible is the work of God.

So I will disagree with you and pray for you. That is the way I have been taught so please do not be upset over that.

I do not know how you do it with out the word of God- which you do not believe is truth.

When you say "God" are you talking about the God of the world? Like all God's are the same? Zues, Thor, Holy Cows and so on?

To me this is interesting.

Thanks again for your repsonse. Sincerely.

I believe ebia claims Christianity but doubts parts of the bible that don't seem to make sense to him historically or scientifically. (This is unless he has changed since the last time I encountered him so long ago when he made this statement:
"If the OT stories of attrocities are true and accurate, God is not the loving God he claims to be."

this was said by him in response to one of my posts on Oct. 27, 2005.

I have record of it because I got some reputation for a statement that I made in that forum and have access to that conversation that we had.

humbledbyhim · Feb 24, 2006

While ebia is right in his belief that scripture is not the FINAL authority on what is right and wrong, I do not believe that the Spirit of God (the actual final authority on what is right and wrong) would say anything contrary to the teachings in God's (word with a little "w"-aka the bible) Jesus Christ used scripture, and he refers to it as if it is fact. I can only follow in his example and do hte same thing. It should also be noted that many preachers and teachers teach from the bible after God's spirit leads them through the scriptures.

DailyBlessings · Feb 24, 2006

humbledbyhim said:
Jesus Christ used scripture, and he refers to it as if it is fact.

Interesting statement. Are you sure that Jesus refers to things a "fact" or are you maybe imposing this on the text? The Lord taught most often with parable.

Eathin_Hunt · Feb 24, 2006

DailyBlessings said:
Interesting statement. Are you sure that Jesus refers to things a "fact" or are you maybe imposing this on the text? The Lord taught most often with parable.

It is definitly fact he as refering to. He (Christ) never said "you remember the 'ol wise tale so and so".

Christ was confirming its accuracy by just mentioning it (well he did many times). Now you know, but now the question (and one of my main themes) is will you except it or not. That really is the difference.

I really like this site by the way. It shows how some interpet the Bible as the word of God and how Christ came for all of us and others do not use the Bible as their reference to God, but rather what they feel- then call themselves Chrsitians. Please do not get me wrong here I am in no way a judge- thank you in adavance :hug:

But yet call themselves Christians. To me this is very complicated, and it has to be complicated for new Christians too. Maybe that is the point that some want to make- confuse new Christians.

Whatever the reason only God and the individual knows.

I just do not know why someone would think that calling themselves a Christian but then say that they do not belive in the Bible. I mean, they are using the word Christian which comes from the Bible- but yet do not beleive in its content.

I would ask that all new Christians use logic when reading these types of peoples comments and take it a seriously as the TV series "24". It is interesting and at the least entertaining, but not fact.

Thank you all for your honesty and I will pledge to you all as well that I will be too. I am not perfect- really way off that path, and who knows in time I may prove this over and over.

Sincerely,

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

It is definitly fact he as refering to. He (Christ) never said "you remember the 'ol wise tale so and so".

Non sequitur; the first sentence does not follow from the second.

Christ was confirming its accuracy by just mentioning it (well he did many times).

His mentioning something confirms its theological importance but makes no statement about whether it is factual.

But yet call themselves Christians. To me this is very complicated, and it has to be complicated for new Christians too. Maybe that is the point that some want to make- confuse new Christians.

Do you think everyone should conform to your view, whether it is right or wrong, so that we can pretend to new Christians that there is only one view?

I just do not know why someone would think that calling themselves a Christian but then say that they do not belive in the Bible. I mean, they are using the word Christian which comes from the Bible- but yet do not beleive in its content.

The word Christian does not come from the bible. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, not someone who follows the bible. The bible is (no more or less than) one means (of many) through which Christ speaks to us.

DailyBlessings · Feb 24, 2006

If something is true and correct, should it matter whether it is easy to understand or not?

ebia · Feb 24, 2006

Eathin_Hunt said:
Wow.

Hehe, not sure what other text that is concidered holy and talks about Christ and has actual words from his mouth.

Who has said anything about "another text that is holy and talks about Christ and has actual words from his mouth" or anything remotely close to this?

Are you a Morman? Sounds that way to me, from my past experinces.

Me? No. Far from it.

Kind of twist here, duck here, pop-up here then say something off the wall- at least it seems that way to me.

I guess anything that doesn't fit your existing understanding is "off the wall" then.

But I bet you will respond to this in the same way you did prior- you dont need to because you get your own information about Christ and God in a different way that using the tools that Christ and God gave us- like your feelings.

You assume that the bible is the only tool God gave us, yet that is itself an unbiblical idea.

How can someone except Christ but reject his word as false?

1. I haven't said it's false.
2. You are assuming that it is "God's word."

But I beleive that new Christians can disern the truth, just you make it a lot more challenging. Perhaps it is improtant to you to make comments like these?

Where "the truth" is defined as "my understanding of the truth"? Perhaps you have some level of infallibility you aren't telling us about? Or are you just assuming that you are right and I am wrong?

Thank you for your input, but I really think you need to get on the non-Christian forum of this site and ask some questions- like the comments you made.

I hope you are not saying that I am not a Christian, because if you are that is a breach of forum rules.

There is so much you need to know, at least when it comes to the historical, archeological and religious truth to the Bible. I think that today in 2006, it is very hard to say that nothing happend in the Bible is true,

I have yet to meet anyone who would say that nothing that happened in the bible is true.

that Christ did not exist the excact way of the Bible

I haven't said that Christ did not exist or that what the bible has to say about him is not correct.

and that God preseved the text for us today- just way to much evidence to say otherwise.

Such as?

And now that more doors are opeing over seas, many belive there is going to be an out pouring of more information to its historical and archeological significance.

Um, what you think may happen in the future is not exactly conclusive evidence of anything.

That is usually what a new Christians looks into after they receive Christ and see for themsleves that something happend- a life changing event. So I see why you attack that, strategy wise you are on target to confuse people.

How dare you level such accusations.

However as you know and may get angry with, God is more powerful than that. You must get angry when you get called out like this- so please forgive me. I am just calling it how I see it- like you I suppose.

LOL - you make unfounded accusations against people. and then take it as evidence that you were right when they protest. What a joke.

DailyBlessings · Feb 24, 2006

How can someone except Christ but reject his word as false? I guess we all have to use loginc on that one and not get caught up in the spin.

So... if believing in the literal truth of the Bible is a necessary prerequisite of the faith, were the original followers of Christ not true Christians? The Bible was not compiled until quite some time after His death.

To say that there can be no belief in Christ without the Bible is a very dangerous statement, I think.

We complicate the answer we all seek

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