The biblical Support for the Investigative Judgement?

OntheDL · Feb 18, 2006

One more thing on the 2300days vision can not be applied to the Antiochus desecration of the temple...

2300days vision is concerning the end of time. Notice explaination of the vision to Daniel in:

Daniel 8
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
...
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

It's plain and simple: the vision is for the endtime. Did the Antiochus desecration happen in the endtime? No.

Sophia7 · Feb 18, 2006

OntheDL said:
Look who the bible says who enter into the MHP??? The believers!!!

Hebrew 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The bible is saying 'brethren', we can now boldly enter into the Holiest and have direct access to God because Jesus's sacrifice symbolized by the veil torn in half recorded in Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45.

Hebrews is one of my favorite books of the Bible because it so clearly lays out what Jesus' sacrifice means for us and how we can have assurance of salvation. The point of Hebrews is not to prove or disprove the doctrine of the investigative judgment. The point is to exalt Jesus as our only hope of salvation and to give us assurance of that salvation if we have faith in Him. The point is to encourage us to grow in spiritual maturity as we depend on the power of Christ.

My question for you, DL, is how could believers enter the Most Holy Place if Jesus didn't?

Regardless of what translation you read and whether it uses the term holy place or most holy place, the book of Hebrews uses sanctuary imagery to show that Jesus did indeed enter the Most Holy Place in heaven. After Jesus sacrificed Himself, by virtue of His own blood, He entered heaven and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heaven itself is the sanctuary described in Hebrews. What more holy place could there be than the throne room of God, where He sits encircled by the cherubim? That is what the earthly Most Holy Place represented.

On a translation note, Hebrews 9:25 in Greek uses the term hagia, not hagia hagiwn as one would expect, when it clearly refers to the entering of the earthly high priest into the Most Holy Place every year. This word in this verse in the KJV is rendered holy place. Also, in Leviticus 16 (which sets forth the rituals for the Day of Atonement service), the KJV uses the term holy place although it undoubtedly refers to the Most Holy Place (cf. the use of most holy place in the KJV in Exodus 26). The KJV is rather inconsistent in translating this (both from Hebrew and from Greek) into English–probably because of the literal, word-for-word nature of the translation. In these examples, the KJV does not take into account the context in rendering a version that makes sense in English. Thus, I think the meaning here must be determined by context rather than simply by the actual words.

I believe that the idea of the investigative judgment, according to Adventist docrine, would make more sense in relation to what Jesus is doing in heaven (typified by the duties of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement) rather than to Jesus' literal location in heaven. I don't think the Bible supports the notion that Jesus has been sitting up in some cubicle of heaven by Himself for the last 160 years. However, I do think that it makes sense to believe that before the Lamb comes to take us to the wedding supper, He would have to make the guest list and write the invitations and figure out who has RSVPed.

YeshuamySalvation · Feb 19, 2006

This was your original argument:

After I showed the days in Dan 8:14 is the same word for day in Gen 1:5, why can't you simply admit you were wrong?

I never said you were right!! You are wrong, the word for day used in Gen 1:5 is -
3118
yowm
yome
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'yowm' (3117); a day:--day (by day), time.

Furthermore, if we apply day for year principle for 70 weeks or 1260years, we must be also consistant in applying it for 2300days.

Daniel 9:24
24"Seventy weeks are determined concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

We don't necesarly have to add the year day method to the seventy weeks, it can reperesent either days, months, or years but i do side with you on this one that it does reperesent years.

Lastly on this, if what you say is true it's literal days, to the Antiochus Epiphanes, it counts 1150 days (explained below), not 2300 days! History doesn't match! You neither stick to 1150 evenings mornings or 2300 days. Y

ou can't have it both ways.

Exactly that is what it is 1,150 days... 2,300 evenings and morning sacrifices equal 1,150 days - (two sacrifices per-day)

Yes, true but only those versions that are translated by greek minority less than 1% texts, these texts were Alexandrian text, Vaticanus text and Sinaiticus text. These are the catholic version which all modern translations based on.

So, that means all versions are corrupted because the majority if not all except the king James say the Most Holy Place.

On the hand, in the translations from greek majority text or Textus Receptus, for example KJV, it is translated as Holy Place. You can not use the modern translations to make a case.

Hebrew 1:3 3who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb 6:19 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,

Heb 8:1-2 1Now of the things of which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such a High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

The book of "Heb" is full of verses that say within the veil, through the veil, at the right hand of majesty on high... he is the way into the holiest and we enter by his blood.... he entered the most Holy place once and for all having obtained eternal redemption for us.

It's way to overwhelming, what are we missing, is it so hard to come to the realization that Yeshua did indeed make it to the most Holy when he acceneded as scripture teaches, and was not in some den place for nearly two thousand years!!

YeshuamySalvation · Feb 19, 2006

Sophia said:
Hebrews is one of my favorite books of the Bible because it so clearly lays out what Jesus' sacrifice means for us and how we can have assurance of salvation. The point of Hebrews is not to prove or disprove the doctrine of the investigative judgment. The point is to exalt Jesus as our only hope of salvation and to give us assurance of that salvation if we have faith in Him. The point is to encourage us to grow in spiritual maturity as we depend on the power of Christ.

My question for you, DL, is how could believers enter the Most Holy Place if Jesus didn't?

Regardless of what translation you read and whether it uses the term holy place or most holy place, the book of Hebrews uses sanctuary imagery to show that Jesus did indeed enter the Most Holy Place in heaven.

Sophia said:
After Jesus sacrificed Himself, by virtue of His own blood, He entered heaven and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heaven itself is the sanctuary described in Hebrews. What more holy place could there be than the throne room of God, where He sits encircled by the cherubim? That is what the earthly Most Holy Place represented.

On a translation note, Hebrews 9:25 in Greek uses the term hagia, not hagia hagiwn as one would expect, when it clearly refers to the entering of the earthly high priest into the Most Holy Place every year. This word in this verse in the KJV is rendered holy place. Also, in Leviticus 16 (which sets forth the rituals for the Day of Atonement service), the KJV uses the term holy place although it undoubtedly refers to the Most Holy Place (cf. the use of most holy place in the KJV in Exodus 26). The KJV is rather inconsistent in translating this (both from Hebrew and from Greek) into Englishprobably because of the literal, word-for-word nature of the translation. In these examples, the KJV does not take into account the context in rendering a version that makes sense in English. Thus, I think the meaning here must be determined by context rather than simply by the actual words.

I believe that the idea of the investigative judgment, according to Adventist docrine, would make more sense in relation to what Jesus is doing in heaven (typified by the duties of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement) rather than to Jesus' literal location in heaven. I don't think the Bible supports the notion that Jesus has been sitting up in some cubicle of heaven by Himself for the last 160 years. However, I do think that it makes sense to believe that before the Lamb comes to take us to the wedding supper, He would have to make the guest list and write the invitations and figure out who has RSVPed.

Amen!!! Execllent post Sophia

tall73 · Feb 19, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
Amen!!! Execllent post Sophia

It really bothers some folks, especially the older ones, when you point out that Jesus was not literally in a little room doing something for 2k years. Hebrews makes it plain He entered heaven itself and sat down next to God.

The sancuary is the SYMBOL, not the reality.

We don't have to place Jesus in a literal spot in heaven for Him to be doing a certain work of judgement.

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

Sophia7 said:
My question for you, DL, is how could believers enter the Most Holy Place if Jesus didn't?

Hi,

Here's my short answer...

Adam and Eve had daily face-to-face relationship with God in the Garden. After the sin, the relationship was severed. By Jesus dying on the cross, He made the reconciliation possible. Paul was pointing out the fact to the believers we no longer had a human highpriest that ministered and interceded on our behalf. We now can have direct communication with God by the merit of Christ's sacrifice.

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
I never said you were right!! You are wrong, the word for day used in Gen 1:5 is -
3118
yowm
yome
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'yowm' (3117); a day:--day (by day), time.

Daniel 9:24
24"Seventy weeks are determined concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

We don't necesarly have to add the year day method to the seventy weeks, it can reperesent either days, months, or years but i do side with you on this one that it does reperesent years.

Exactly that is what it is 1,150 days... 2,300 evenings and morning sacrifices equal 1,150 days - (two sacrifices per-day)

So, that means all versions are corrupted because the majority if not all except the king James say the Most Holy Place.

My Interlinear bible with Strong's concordance shows the 2300 days in Dan8:14 are from these two words: 'ereb boqer. These are 'evening and morning' definition for the word day (Yome) in Gen1:5.

1 evening and morning equal to 1day. 2 evening and morning equal to 2 days. 2300 evenings and mornings equal to 2300days, not 1150days. That logic makes no sense. Jonah was in the whale 3 day and 3 nights. That was a total of 3 days. Not 1.5 days. No one uses 2 morning and night for 1 day.

Also the the 2300day vision is for the endtime (Dan8:17,19). Antiochus Desecration of the temple can hardly be considered 'the end'.

The 70week is part of the 2300day prophecy. Notice 70week was given to Daniel as to explain the 2300 days. You can only fit 490 days inside 2300days, not the other way around.

Hebrew 1:3

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb 6:19 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,

Heb 6:19 ....entered into the that within the veil

This does NOT indicate Jesus entered into the Most Holy Place at the time Paul wrote the book.

There are 2 veils in the sanctuary. There is a veil (katapetasma) that screens the Holy Place from the court. The other veil or the 2nd veil (deuteron katapetasma) seperates/screens the MHP from the HP.

This veil is also refered as the 'second veil' in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

The word katapetasma is also used for both veils in Septuagent.

Also the phrase 'within the veil' was used in OT for both the first apartment(Num 18:7) and the second apartment(Exd 26:33, Lev 16:2,12,15).

So we can see the neither the word 'veil' nor the phrase 'within the veil' can be used as conclusive proof that Jesus entered into the Holiest at the time the book of Hebrews was written. Additional information must be considered.

Heb 8:1-2 N

ow of the things of which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such a High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Is this the proof that after ascension, Jesus next to the Father in the Most Holy Place?

Then the question naturally follows: 'where is the throne of God?'

Psalm 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion:

Psalm 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

God's throne is on mount Zion, to the side of the north, not in the MHP which in the west as most of us presume!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The devil knows clearly the throne of God is on the north side, he counterfeits by setting his throne to the north also. This is repeated in 2 Thess 2:4.

What's on the north side in the sanctuary?

Exodus 26:35 ... and thou shalt put the table on the north side.

The throne of God is the Table of Shewbread.

The devil sets his throne on the north (the enemy attacks came from the north). But he is out side of the sanctuary. David stated The Lord's presence shields the believers.

Psalm 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

In our daily walk with the Lord in the Holy Place in the presence of the Lord, Satan can do nothing to us without first going through Jesus. This is clearly illustrated in the study of sanctuary.

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

tall73 said:
It really bothers some folks, especially the older ones, when you point out that Jesus was not literally in a little room doing something for 2k years. Hebrews makes it plain He entered heaven itself and sat down next to God.

The sancuary is the SYMBOL, not the reality.

We don't have to place Jesus in a literal spot in heaven for Him to be doing a certain work of judgement.

Hi,

Are you saying there is no heavenly sanctuary?

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

double post

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
is it so hard to come to the realization that Yeshua did indeed make it to the most Holy when he acceneded as scripture teaches, and was not in some den place for nearly two thousand years!!

Some den or little room??? You have never seen it. But according to Daniel and John who saw it, it is magnificent! With thousands upon thousands of angels like the clouds of heaven ministered before the Lord.

tall73 · Feb 20, 2006

OntheDL said:
Hi,

Are you saying there is no heavenly sanctuary?

The sanctuary in heaven is heaven itself. The most Holy Place is in God's presence. So yes, there is a heavenly sanctuary. No, It is not a few small rooms.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

We have too often made the symbols the realities.

YeshuamySalvation · Feb 20, 2006

OntheDL said:
1 evening and morning equal to 1day. 2 evening and morning equal to 2 days. 2300 evenings and mornings equal to 2300days, not 1150days. That logic makes no sense. Jonah was in the whale 3 day and 3 nights. That was a total of 3 days. Not 6 days.

What your not getting is that 2,300 evenings and mornings means 2,300 sacrifices were stoped then later on they would be "restored", the word day is not even mentioned in that passege as you continue to insist.
Contextually and also leguistically the 1,150 days fits perfectly with the context one sacrifice for each morning and evening. Daniel 9:12 also supports the 1,150 days.

The year day principle is not proved anywere in scripture, The bible tells us that the Jew were to be under Egyptian bondage for four hundred years it's a prophecy and the year day method does not apply. The 70 weeks of Dainel does not prove the year day principle either because what the passege "seventy sevens".

Also the the 2300day vision is for the endtime (Dan8:17,19). Antiochus Desecration of the temple can hardly be considered 'the end'.

But please read the context it's self explanitory...

Daniel 8:2-27 2And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3Then I lifted up mine eyes and saw, and behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns; and the two horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4I saw the ram pushing westward and northward and southward, so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will and became great.

5And as I was considering, behold, a hegoat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with fury against him, and smote the ram and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and stamped upon him. And there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8Therefore the hegoat waxed very great; and when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and in its place came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

14And he said unto me, "Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision and sought for the meaning, then behold, there stood before me one with the appearance of a man.

16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, who called and said, "Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision."

17So he came near where I stood. And when he came I was afraid and fell upon my face, but he said unto me, "Understand, O son of man,for at the time of the end shall be the vision."

18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face toward the ground; but he touched me and set me upright.

19And he said, "Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation, for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the riugh goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that one being broken, in whose place four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wondrously, and shall prosper and perform, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by using peace shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken without raising a hand.

26"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true. Therefore shut thou up the vision, for it shall be for many days."

27And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick several days. Afterward I rose up and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Alot of what Daniel saw has already been fullfiled even before the 1844 event.

I will continue to answere the rest of your post later because i really have to go now.. Blessings

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

tall73 said:
The sanctuary in heaven is heaven itself. The most Holy Place is in God's presence. So yes, there is a heavenly sanctuary. No, It is not a few small rooms.

We have too often made the symbols the realities.

The earthly sanctuary was a 'pattern' of the heavenly sanctuary. Not in exact proportion but a miniture of what's in heaven.

OntheDL · Feb 20, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
What your not getting is that 2,300 evenings and mornings means 2,300 sacrifices were stoped then later on they would be "restored", the word day is not even mentioned in that passege as you continue to insist.
Contextually and also leguistically the 1,150 days fits perfectly with the context one sacrifice for each morning and evening. Daniel 9:12 also supports the 1,150 days.

Dan 8:14 says 'day', from hebrew evening and morning. This was how God defined the first day in Gen 1:5. Where does it say 'ereb boqer/evening morning means evening morning sacrifices?

The year day principle is not proved anywere in scripture, The bible tells us that the Jew were to be under Egyptian bondage for four hundred years it's a prophecy and the year day method does not apply. The 70 weeks of Dainel does not prove the year day principle either because what the passege "seventy sevens".

The bible gives proof of a day for a year.

The children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years for the 40 days of their spying of the promised land in distrust and rebellion of the Lord's command to enter.

Numbers 14
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4
5For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Also, 70 weeks gives the clearest proof of day for a year principle. 70x7=490days. From 457BC (Ezra 7:1-27) to 34AD(Acts7:59), that's 490 years. The prophecy was fulfilled to the hour.

The day for year principle also works perfectly for 1260 prophecy proven by history.

But please read the context it's self explanitory...

Daniel 8:2-27 2And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3Then I lifted up mine eyes and saw, and behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns; and the two horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4I saw the ram pushing westward and northward and southward, so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will and became great.

5And as I was considering, behold, a hegoat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with fury against him, and smote the ram and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and stamped upon him. And there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8Therefore the hegoat waxed very great; and when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and in its place came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

14And he said unto me, "Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision and sought for the meaning, then behold, there stood before me one with the appearance of a man.

16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, who called and said, "Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision."

17So he came near where I stood. And when he came I was afraid and fell upon my face, but he said unto me, "Understand, O son of man,for at the time of the end shall be the vision."

18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face toward the ground; but he touched me and set me upright.

19And he said, "Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation, for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the riugh goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that one being broken, in whose place four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wondrously, and shall prosper and perform, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by using peace shall destroy many. He shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken without raising a hand.

26"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true. Therefore shut thou up the vision, for it shall be for many days."

27And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick several days. Afterward I rose up and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Alot of what Daniel saw has already been fullfiled even before the 1844 event.

I will continue to answere the rest of your post later because i really have to go now.. Blessings

Lets say 2300day vision is indeed the 1150days concerning Antiochus, then what about the little horn power? You know who the little horn is, right? How could it fit in the event took place before the Jesus's time?

Cliff2 · Feb 20, 2006

OntheDL said:
Dan 8:14 says 'day', from hebrew evening and morning. This was how God defined the first day in Gen 1:5. Where does it say 'ereb boqer/evening morning means evening morning sacrifices?

The bible gives proof of a day for a year.

The children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years for the 40 days of their spying of the promised land in distrust and rebellion of the Lord's command to enter.

Numbers 14
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4
5For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Also, 70 weeks gives the clearest proof of day for a year principle. 70x7=490days. From 457BC (Ezra 7:1-27) to 34AD(Acts7:59), that's 490 years. The prophecy was fulfilled to the hour.

The day for year principle also works perfectly for 1260 prophecy proven by history.

Lets say 2300day vision is indeed the 1150days concerning Antiochus, then what about the little horn power? You know who the little horn is, right? How could it fit in the event took place before the Jesus's time?

Lets say 2300day vision is indeed the 1150days concerning Antiochus, then what about the little horn power? You know who the little horn is, right? How could it fit in the event took place before the Jesus's time?

Good point.

Now for those who struggle with the concept of the IJ I would suggest that you go back into the Bible and study every case where God has passed judgement on those who deserved it.

Look at the garden of Eden first.

God came down in the evening to talk with Adam and Eve. God asked them questions. This shows that God is willing to be open about the decision that He was about to make.

We all know that God knew the answer to the questions He was about to ask and did ask.

Did that make God into some sort of tyrant because God asked them questions?

I do not think it does at all.

Then we have tha case of Cain and Able. God came and asked Cain where his brother was. God followed exactly the same process as what happened with Adam and Eve.

There is a reason for all of this.

God's character is actually on trial. Lucifer had made out that God was not honest and that God was trying to keep something from him. Then we have at least one third of the angels in heaven actullay believing Lucifer.

Then we have many of the angels and may be even all of them just wondering who is right in this great controversy.

What about all the unfallen beings in the other worlds. They are looking on as to what will take place.

This in IJ is not just about finding who is fit for heaven at all. It is about making sure that sin will never enter the hearts of anyone again.

God knows who is saved and lost, God has to make sure that everyone also knows why a person is saved or lost.

Will continue this as time permits.

Am very glad this topic has come up and hope we can get a clearer understanding as to why God has to have an IJ today.

YeshuamySalvation · Feb 20, 2006

OntheDL said:
My Interlinear bible with Strong's concordance shows the 2300 days in Dan8:14 are from these two words: 'ereb boqer. These are 'evening and morning' definition for the word day (Yome) in Gen1:5.

Strong's

Yeshua My Salvation >from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.
3118
yowm
yome
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'yowm' (3117); a day:--day (by day), time.
3119
yowmam
yo-mawm'
from 'yowm' (3117); daily:--daily, (by, in the) day(-time).

from '`arab' (6150); dusk:--+ day, even(-ing, tide), night.
6154
`ereb
ay'-reb
or mereb (1 Kings 10:15), (with the article prefix), {eh'-reb}; from '`arab' (6148); the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a mixture, (or mongrel race):--Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude), woof.

Yeshua My Salvation > Proff right here that the 'ereb boqer is not the same as yome, the word for day does not appear in the Daniel 8:14 passage.

The 70week is part of the 2300day prophecy. Notice 70week was given to Daniel as to explain the 2300 days. You can only fit 490 days inside 2300days, not the other way around.

Yeshua My Salvation > There is nothing in Scirpture that says that the "70 weeks" must be subtracted from the 2,300 days, the Angel Gabriel does not say that "490 years" have been (subtracted) - rather that 490 years had been alloted to the Jewish people!!! In other words certain thing had to take place before the Kingdom was established...

On The DL said:
Heb 6:19 ....entered into the that within the veil

This does NOT indicate Jesus entered into the Most Holy Place at the time Paul wrote the book.

Yeshua My Salvation > It's hard to believe that someone would say this when it's so clear from scripture that it does indicate just that..

On The DL said:
There are 2 veils in the sanctuary. There is a veil (katapetasma) that screens the Holy Place from the court. The other veil or the 2nd veil (deuteron katapetasma) seperates/screens the MHP from the HP.

This veil is also refered as the 'second veil' in Hebrews:

Yeshua My Salvation > You are attempting to redifine the words within the viel.

And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

The word katapetasma is also used for both veils in Septuagent.

Also the phrase 'within the veil' was used in OT for both the first apartment(Num 18:7) and the second apartment(Exd 26:33, Lev 16:2,12,15).

Strong's - katapetasma
from a compound of kata - kata 2596 and a congener of petomai - petomai 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen (to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.

So we can see the neither the word 'veil' nor the phrase 'within the veil' can be used as conclusive proof that Jesus entered into the Holiest at the time the book of Hebrews was written. Additional information must be considered.

Yeshua My Salvation > He did not enter at the time of the book of "Heb", he entered at his accension. Why are we attempting to demote Yeshua? Why do we think he needed to waite so many years to enter the most Holy Place?
Is that how little and weak the God we serve is? My Saviour did not need to waite that many years to enter the holiest of all.

On The Dl said:
Dan 8:14 says 'day', from hebrew evening and morning. This was how God defined the first day in Gen 1:5. Where does it say 'ereb boqer/evening morning means evening morning sacrifices?

The bible gives proof of a day for a year.

The children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years for the 40 days of their spying of the promised land in distrust and rebellion of the Lord's command to enter.

Numbers 14
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

I'm just pointing out that this does not apply to every time prophecy. And the word for day is 'Yom' which is absent in the Daniel passage.

Ezek 4
5For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Also, 70 weeks gives the clearest proof of day for a year principle. 70x7=490days. From 457BC (Ezra 7:1-27) to 34AD(Acts7:59), that's 490 years. The prophecy was fulfilled to the hour.

Dr. Des Ford >That the decree of Ezra 7 "went forth in 457 B.C when Ezra had arrived to Jerusalem and set to work. Though Ezra never says this, and the decree had been anounced at least six months earlier. There is nothing in Daniel to say that this decree should be dated from the time of it's implelmentation rather then it's enunciation.)

Dr. Des Ford > That 408 B.C. was the time when the restoration of the city was completed. (Admitted even by Adventist Scholars to be impossible to prove.)

Dr. Des Ford > That A.D. 27 was the date of Christ Baptism. (A similarly difficult feat)

Dr. Des Ford > That A.D. 31 was the day of the crucifixion. Almost all Scholars hold to other years, not this one. Evidence from Grace Amadon's researches, often used by S.D.AS, is based on doubtful assumptions, as Admmited by the S.D.A Bible Commentary.

Tall 73 said:
It really bothers some folks, especially the older ones, when you point out that Jesus was not literally in a little room doing something for 2k years. Hebrews makes it plain He entered heaven itself and sat down next to God.

The sancuary is the SYMBOL, not the reality.

We don't have to place Jesus in a literal spot in heaven for Him to be doing a certain work of judgement.

Exodus 25:3-40

3And this is the offering which ye shall take from them: gold and silver and brass;

4and blue and purple and scarlet, and fine linen and goats' hair;

5and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood;

6oil for the light, spices for anointing oil and for sweet incense;

7onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod and in the breastplate.

8And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.

9According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

10"And they shall make an ark of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

11And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold; within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.

12And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it.

13And thou shalt make staves of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood and overlay them with gold.

14And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them.

15The staves shall be in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it.

16And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

17"And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.

18And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold; of beaten work shalt thou make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.

19And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end; even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

20And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another. Toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

21And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

23"Thou shalt also make a table of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood: two cubits shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

24And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make thereto a crown of gold round about.

25And thou shalt make unto it a border of a handbreadth round about, and thou shalt make a golden crown for the border thereof round about.

26And thou shalt make for it four rings of gold, and put the rings in the four corners that are on the four feet thereof.

27Over against the border shall the rings be for places for the staves to bear the table.

28And thou shalt make the staves of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood and overlay them with gold, that the table may be borne with them.

29And thou shalt make the dishes thereof and spoons thereof and covers thereof and bowls thereof for pouring; of pure gold shalt thou make them.

30And thou shalt set upon the table showbread before Me always.

31"And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold; of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft and his branches, his bowls, his buds, and his flowers shall be of the same.

32And six branches shall come out of the sides of it: three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side.

33Three bowls made like unto almonds with a bud and a flower on one branch, and three bowls made like almonds on the other branch with a bud and a flower -- so for the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

34And on the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their buds and their flowers.

35And there shall be a bud under two branches of the same, and a bud under two branches of the same, and a bud under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.

36Their buds and their branches shall be of the same. All of it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

37And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof; and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over the face of it.

38And the tongs thereof and the snuff dishes thereof shall be of pure gold;

39of a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels.

40And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shown thee on the mount.

Tall 73 > Hebrews makes it plain He entered heaven itself and sat down next to God. The sancuary is the SYMBOL, not the reality.

Yeshua My Salvation >Amen Brother!!! By using that logic we would reach a host of strange conclusions, like for instance, is there also burnt offerings in heaven with it's grait and tongs and basins for catching the blood of the slain animals? Are there Ram skins dyed red and Badger skins? and blue and purple and scarlet, and fine linen and goats' hair aswell?

YeshuamySalvation · Feb 20, 2006

ON THE DL said:
Lets say 2300day vision is indeed the 1150days concerning Antiochus, then what about the little horn power? You know who the little horn is, right? How could it fit in the event took place before the Jesus's time?

Yeshua My Salvation >Another round of the (On The DL) versusYeshua My Salvation Debate LOL. Sorry that i did not address this question of yours, i totally missed it i appolagize... The little Horn in Daniel 8 is - Antiochus Epiphanes. It is not Rome as assumed by some Adventist because Rome had no contact with the Jewish nations till 161 B.C.... But unlike Rome that had no such contact with the Jewish nations and lived at peace with the Jews till 63 B.C. - This little horn in Daniel 8 Fits perfectly with this king that desecrated the temple Antiochus Epiphanes...

OntheDL · Feb 21, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
Yeshua My Salvation >Another round of the (On The DL) versusYeshua My Salvation Debate LOL. Sorry that i did not address this question of yours, i totally missed it i appolagize... The little Horn in Daniel 8 is - Antiochus Epiphanes. It is not Rome as assumed by some Adventist because Rome had no contact with the Jewish nations till 161 B.C.... But unlike Rome that had no such contact with the Jewish nations and lived at peace with the Jews till 63 B.C. - This little horn in Daniel 8 Fits perfectly with this king that desecrated the temple Antiochus Epiphanes...

ok

tall73 · Feb 22, 2006

OntheDL said:
The Day of Atonement (at one ment) falls on the 10th day of the 7th month, Tishri. It is the most sacred day of the biblical calendar and is the only fast day of the calendar year (Lev 23:32, Acts 27:9). On this day, the high priest was to wash his body and to clad in special linen garments (Lev. 16:2-5). The white linen garment symbolized Christ’s righteousness. And the high priest typified Christ.

High priests engaged in thourough preparation for this day. Some, according to tradition, did not sleep the night before for fear of having improper dreams. There could be absolutely no unconfessed sins when entering into the presence of God, the holy Shekeinah. The bible tells us the high priest wore bells and pomegranades. So as he was moving in the Most Holy Place, people could hear him. If he was to be stuck dead because of uncomfessed sin, they could pull him out by a rope tied to his ankle without entering into the MHP. The bible does not give an actual account. Josephus did record murdered priests drowned in the laver in the Herod's temple. So it was possible when later the priesthood was corrupted.

Notice here, the high priest perhaps typified both Christ in His 1st apartment ministry and believers who enter into the MHP for judgment at the end of their walk or at the close of probation.

Only once a year, on the day of Atonement, only the high priest was allowed to enter into the Most Holy Place (Lev. 16:14,15). This regulation typifies Christ’s continual (daily) mediatorial ministry in the Holy Place and Christ judgment in the MHP in the endtime.

First the high priest offered a sacrifice (bull) as a sin offering for himself and his house (Lev. 16:6). Aaron and his family had to be free from sin in order to be accepted in God’s service. This is because Aaron typified Christ who was sinless.

After Aaron had interceded for himself and his family, the two goats were brought to the door of the sanctuary and lots were cast. The casting of lots determined which was the Lord’s goat (represented Christ) and which was not. The Lord’s goat was offered as a sin offering (Lev 6:9). Notice only one goat functioned as a sin offering. This offering was for all the people, but sin was not actually confessed over the head of the Lord’s goat (Lev 6:15). Carrying the blood of this goat, the priest entered into the most holy place.

The second goat was in Hebrew called Azazel meaning 'scapegoat', 'the angel who revolted'... When the high priest had made an end to making an atonement for the people, he symbolically bore all the confessed sins of the congregation by himself. “Christ became sin (offering) for us.” He then placed all these sins symbolically on the head of the second goat. The scapegoat was then led away into the wilderness or land of separation (Lev 6:20-22).

This animal was not sacrificed by the shedding of blood, nor is the death of this goat in the wilderness mentioned by the bible. The scapegoat took no part in making an atonement for sin (Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22). The Azazel’s goat (satan) was a witness and the originator and partaker of every sin. The sense in which the word atonement is used in relation to this goat must be viewed in terms of making “reparation for wrong or injury” (Lev 16:10). This represents Satan will ultimately bore all confessed sins and be chain in abyss (this earth made desolate) for the millennium. What about the unconfessed sins? Each sinner will bore these sins themselves because they are not confessed and not atoned for. This is the 'unpardonable sin' which is sin never confessed and turned away from.

This act signifies that every sin is accounted for and price of sins are finally paid for by the guilty party. The believers of Christ are justified in eyes of God. Though the believers were justified when they accepted Christ’s death in their place, God preserved the record of sin by spilling, sprinkling and imprinting the blood throughout the sanctuary. It is by examining/investigating every record of sins, the believer is proven to the universe to have been justified in Christ. It is after this act, the record of sins are then eradicated through the act of sending the scapegoat into the wilderness and cleansing of the blood from the veils and sanctuary on this day.

One of the lessons learned from the Day of Atonement is that God forgives sin as soon as it is truly confessed and repented. However, the record of these confessed sins remains. This record must also be seen as a record of Christ’s forgiving acts. This is needed to show the accuser and all intelligent beings how sinners were justified for every sin. This record was finally dealt with once a year, when the blood of the Lord’s goat (no sin was confessed over this goat) was sprinkled on and before the mercy seat (Lev. 16:15).

This act signified that mercy had satisfied the just demands of the law (the 2 tablets of ten commandments stored in the ark under the mercy seat). No record of sins remained at the completion of the ceremony on this day. It is then cast to the sea.

This annual ceremony teaches important truths about the heavenly sanctuary (antitype). The cleansing of the earthly sanctuary shadowed the ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary(Heb. 9:23). The Day of Atonement took place before the Feast of Tabernacle, Sukkoth. The first day of Feast of Tabernacle falls on the 15th of the 7th month. This indicates the investigative judgment takes place just before His second coming. And it becomes apparent that the record of believers’ confessed sins will be dealt with just prior to the close of this earth probation.

“As the priest entered the most holy place once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly sanctuary at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation and then to cleanse the sanctuary” (White, E.G. 1945. [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Early Writings[/FONT], p.253).

At this time Jesus will make final atonement for His people, final intercession before the Father (Dan 7:9,10; Rev 3:5). In 1Timothy 5:24, we are assured that the confessed sins of the penitent believer are blotted out before the execution of judgment (when the Lord returns to give His rewards).

The general probation closes at the end of Day of Atonement after the judgment. However, the unrepentant sinner had already rejected God’s grace by refusing to accept and partake in Christ’s atoning sacrifice. Individuals who were “cut off” were separated from their brethren (as tares will be separated from wheat at harvest) and judged unworthy of the right to be called Israelites (Gen. 17:14; Exod. 12:15). Since they were no longer God’s chosen children, they were not entitled to the covenant which promises the eternal inheritance (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:29). The concept of eternal damnation is clearly taught by these texts, as in its severest application those who were “cut off” were put to death (Exod. 31:14).

After the close of probation, there is no salvation. The grace of God is no longer available. However our individual salvation could be closed before that if we constantly grief away the holy spirit.

Our investigative judgment message is the present-truth message. It urges us to examine our lives and not to get ready but to BE READY for the inpending judgment.

This should conclude my input on our sanctuary doctrine concerning the Day of Atonement. I will discuss the timeline of 2300 day prophecy later.

I probably omitted many important parts that support this doctrine. I will look over them later on. Feel free to give your constructive input and ask questions.

Thanks for putting this up. I wonder if we could put some graphics in to help folks understand the teaching more. Some of the ones I have are nice, but they are copyrighted i am sure..

tall73 · Feb 22, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
Yeshua My Salvation > Hi my friends, sorry that have not been able to post lately, do to the fact that ive been working 12 and 16 hour shifts..

Our sanctuary doctrine on the Day of Atonement is flawed, Ellen White our supposed prophetess said that the day of Atonment fell on October 22.... The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the twenty-second of October, was regarded as the time of the Lords coming." The Great Controversy, p. 400.

Yeshua My Salvation > when historical document show that day to be September 23, 1844 instead...

I am sure these things have already been commented on, but I am just now getting time to go through all of the posts more thoroughly.

The actual date of the day of atonement in that year might be helpful for testing EGW, but it really does not have much to do with the biblical evidence. There was no earthly manifestation of the fulfilling of the prophecy. So either the prophecy was wrong, or the fulfillment is not dependent on human notions of the dating of the day.

In other words, if the interpretation of the 2300 days is correct, then God surely knows the correct day. And even if we have it off a bit, He can take care of that.

And if the interpretation is not correct, then it doesn't matter anyway.

So to me this aspect of the question has no value to this thread, though it might in dealing with questions about EGW. This thread, however, is on the biblical information.

The biblical Support for the Investigative Judgement?

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