Age of Accountability

Aluther22 said:

We go to God only by what Christ gives us, not on our own. We are still poor miserable sinners, but in God's eyes we are righteous because of the grace given by Christ on the Cross

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

You tell me what you think. You asked for scriptures in which man chooses God or in which man seeks God. I gave you one of each.

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

I think people become accountable when they understand what sin is.

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ChiRho said:

What we cannot do, God does for us. Surely these versus are not in contradiction. God is the sole cause of "our knock," our "seeking," or our "choosing" God.

Luther writes,

"The proper separation of Law and Gospel is the highest art in Christendom."

The Law (using a strict sense, which is all that is specifically commanded or forbidden by Scripture) is not untrue, but completely beyond the reach of broken man, to fulfill. Just as Christ commands you to love your brother as yourself and to love Him with all of your heart, mind, body, and soul, it is abundantly clear that their is no one who does. Not even one. Christ is the Perfect Obediant Sacrifice in our place. He is the Appeaser to God and bore our desereved Wrath, for the sins of our rebellion. Our faith is not based on how well (more accurately, how horrible we fail) we attempt to keep the Law. Our faith is based that Christ kept the Law perfectly and made the Perfect Sacrifice in our stead. He sought God's will, not His own (in His state of perfect humiliation...as True Man). Faith is that He justifies us, not that we, with proper inspiration or cooperation, can help to justify ourselves. What usually appears to be a "choice" is really the result of the Holy Spirit already working and creating faith in the believer.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

If we are "righteous in God's eyes" then we are righteous. How God sees things is how they really are. It kinda bugs me when I say "Christians are Saints" and someone says "well, we are in God's eyes", as if there is a difference between "in God's eyes" and "reality". God doesn't have hallucinations - what God sees is true. We are made righteous by Christ's blood. God declares us holy.

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Aluther22 said:

(1)Does not a two year know what wrong is? Or what about a 5 year old learning to use the Lord's name in vain at pre-school, goes home and says it to his mother, the mother tells the child it is wrong. But the child continues to use it. (2)Do we as adults know all the sins in our lives that we consistently commit and on a daily basis-NO.

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Aluther22 said:

So are you saying that each time we sin, we are made unrighteous. what are you saying that Christ did on the Cross then? If his blood doesn't cover up our sins, what hope do we have-NONE! Does not God see Jesus Christ's blood
on each of us. In the OT, the Lamb w/o blemish or spot, covered up the sins of the sinful people, Christs' blood, in essence covers up our transgressions.
Read Romans -Peace

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

No, I am not saying that. I don't understand how you got that idea from my post. In fact, I said the opposite. I said we are righteous because of Christ's blood,a nd if God calls us righteous, we are indeed righteous. In an earlier post, you said we are "miserable sinners" but righteous in "God's eyes". The whole point of my post was that if we are righteous in God's eyes, then we are righteous. Period. How can we be "miserable sinners" if God sees us as "righteous"?

And I read Romans all the time - it is my favorite book.

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Aluther22 said:

God looks at Christ and sees His Righteousness and imputes It to us. We are Holy because He is Holy. Vicarious Atonement. We are not Holy because of our current sinful state. You and I are both miserable sinners, truely. No illusion. You and I are guilty and deserving of torment and death, truely. Christ in our place stands, and we are pardoned according to His works and Sacrifice. His deeds are accredited to us as our own. If this was not true, neither you nor I, nor any other man who has ever been would be saved.

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ChiRho said:

As far as "accountability" age is concerned, do you deny original sin? Are we not sinful from birth? If we really didn't believe this, then parents have no right punishing children (even as young as a 1 year old) for doing what is wrong. Have you have ever seen a toddler be instructed not to touch something, then with a mischievious grin touch it anyway? They know what they are doing is wrong, but they do it regardless. They know it is wrong. I would direct you back to a previous post of mine on page 3 or 4. It is rather long but it deals with this misunderstanding that children are innocent, and asserts that even in the womb children can have faith. Truely, they are not innocent. If one insists another must "understand" fully what sin is, and the rammifications of death without Christ, then I would say that no adult "understands" this fully. We cannot reason our way to faith. Not one bit! An infant can certainly have faith.
Pax Christi,
ChiRho

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

Exactly. We are not righteous because of our own works. I never said we were. We are righteous only because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. But that doesn't make us any less righteous. In fact, it's the opposite. We are now righteous because we are joined with Christ, and his righteousness is become our own. Now, how can anyone say that what God has declared holy and righteous is sinful?

Maybe we would both agree if we worded it in the following way:

1)As nonChristians, we were unholy and had a sinful nature.

2)When we become Christians, the sin nature (the old nature, the old self) is crucified, and we are given a new nature. Our spirits are regenerated. We have become new creations. Christ declares us holy and righteous.

3)Who we really are (the spirit within us) is now perfect because of the regenarating power in Christ's blood. The spirit is stained by sin no longer.

4)However, the spirit still resides in a corrupted body (the vessel, the house), and along with that corrupted body comes all the temporary things that combine to form the "flesh system" - reasoning, attitude, knowledge, personality, emotions, etc. These things are what Satan's demons target when they tempt you. Even though you are a new creation with a new nature (which is to serve God), the demons still tempt. If we are deceived by the demons in our minds and emotions (which are not part of the spirit but part of the "flesh system"), and in our will (part of the "flesh system") we choose to do that which the demons tempt us to do, we sin, using the members of our body as "weapons of unrighteousness". However, this has no effect on who we are. God has already made our spirits and nature perfect. That is a one time thing that will not change. Our new identity is in Christ. Who we really are (spirit) is righteous. The body and its "flesh system" are temporary and is not what God bases his judgment (on who we are) upon.

Another way to look at is this:

A man gets married. The law recognizes him as a husband. If he takes off his wedding ring at a bar and plays the part of an unmarried man, that does not change the fact that legally, he is still a husband. That is who he is.

In the same manner of speaking, we may not always act righteously in our flesh, but we are still righteous - because God has declared us righteous.

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

That is our disagreement. I think the old Adam (the old sin nature) is dead. I believe that if we as Christians offer our body parts up as weapons of unrighteousness (as Paul puts it) and thus sin, we are going against our very own new nature. Some Christians will say "oh well, it's just the way I am". But I believe we can't use that excuse. We are new creations. The sin nature, that nature which compels a nonChristian to sin, is dead, so if we sin, we have no excuse.

Truth is that the Bible says that the old nature, the old self "had been crucified" (past tense). It does not say it is "being crucified".

Maybe what we have is a miscommunication of terms. Do you say that the sin nature is the same thing as the flesh? I say that the sin nature and flesh have different meanings altogether.

I believe that we are no "miserable sinners", because I define our spirit as who we really are, and the flesh is temporary, and it is really nothing more than our mortal shell, which we can use for good or evil. When we becoem Christians, sin's power over the flesh is broken - the flesh is no longer a slave to sin. We can choose no to sin. Do we always choose that? no. But Jesus' victory over sin gives us the ability to choose not to sin.

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Slave2SinNoMore said:

Slave2SinNoMore said:

That is our disagreement. I think the old Adam (the old sin nature) is dead. I believe that if we as Christians offer our body parts up as weapons of unrighteousness (as Paul puts it) and thus sin, we are going against our very own new nature. Some Christians will say "oh well, it's just the way I am". But I believe we can't use that excuse. We are new creations. The sin nature, that nature which compels a nonChristian to sin, is dead, so if we sin, we have no excuse.

Truth is that the Bible says that the old nature, the old self "had been crucified" (past tense). It does not say it is "being crucified".

Maybe what we have is a miscommunication of terms. Do you say that the sin nature is the same thing as the flesh? I say that the sin nature and flesh have different meanings altogether.

I believe that we are no "miserable sinners", because I define our spirit as who we really are, and the flesh is temporary, and it is really nothing more than our mortal shell, which we can use for good or evil. When we becoem Christians, sin's power over the flesh is broken - the flesh is no longer a slave to sin. We can choose no to sin. Do we always choose that? no. But Jesus' victory over sin gives us the ability to choose not to sin.

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Do you still sin? If we can choose good from evil, why would we ever choose evil?

I think that this way of thinking encourages us to displace the guilt of sin to something other than ourselves. If we are ever without sin, than Christ is unecessary, and we have no need for repentance. But a broken spirit and contrite heart is the only thing that pleases God. (Psalm 51:1) We are miserable sinners and in need of a Savior always! This sounds like some sort of piety. Correct me if I am wrong.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

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ChiRho said:

Do you still sin? If we can choose good from evil, why would we ever choose evil?

I think that this way of thinking encourages us to displace the guilt of sin to something other than ourselves. If we are ever without sin, than Christ is unecessary, and we have no need for repentance. But a broken spirit and contrite heart is the only thing that pleases God. (Psalm 51:1) We are miserable sinners and in need of a Savior always! This sounds like some sort of piety. Correct me if I am wrong.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

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