Pre-destination and the Bible
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Warrior Poet
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Warrior Poet
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6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?
Whats YOUR point?
Warrior Poet
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?
Whats YOUR point?
Warrior Poet
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Bulldog said:
Bulldog, what version do you use? I know that at least one version uses "evil", but in mine, NKJV, it says:
"...if there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?"
One definition for the greek word for calamity is "trouble".
The way I see it, that verse cannot mean that God commits evil, because if it did, wouldn't that contradict the following?
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with EVIL, neither tempeth he any man." (James 1:13)
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ben hur said:
Doesnt the open view demean Gods sovereignty?
Many have come to agree that the Open view of God is actually more sovereign than the view our critics holda God whose sovereignty is not threatened by empowering his creatures with self-determining freedom. While this freedom gives creatures the capacity to love, it also gives them the capacity to sin, thus making redemption the heart of Gods unfolding plan as revealed in Scripture.
The Open view demeans Gods sovereignty only if sovereignty is equated with meticulous control. Defenders of the open view of the future believe that the biblical portrayal of Gods sovereignty consists of much more than mere control and includes dynamic qualities such as flexibility, spontaneity and creativity. These aspects of Gods sovereignty are meaningless if the future is exhaustively settled.
The God of Open theism is free to determine some aspects of the future according to his will and to anticipate and address his creatures choices within the parameters he has established for them, to cultivate real, meaningful and transforming relationships with them, to respond to their fervent and effectual prayers, and even to empty himself and become one of them in the person of Jesus Christ so that they could be reconciled to him. Gods sovereignty is not threatened by these thingsrather, it is amplified all the more.
--Greg Boyd
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Are you sure you meant 9:11? I don't see how the passage addresses issue of God arranging things he doesn't desire.Bulldog said:
This is what the NKJV says for 9:11...
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)
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It's been great talking to ya today. Some great food for thought. I have to go now and actually get some work done. I'll try to pick it up again on Monday if ya still wnat to continue along this line. Happy Easter, Brother!
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Warrior Poet
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Try explaining your POV that might be more productive.
And Romans 8:11 only cause more confusion to what you are trying to get at from my POV. You have officially lost me.
Warrior Poet
And Romans 8:11 only cause more confusion to what you are trying to get at from my POV. You have officially lost me.
Warrior Poet
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Warrior Poet
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All Amos 6 is doing is showing another oppertunity for us to choose..... and verse 6 has to be taken in with verse 7, its the way its written in Amos ....qustion then answer. Either evil or a clamaty or a disaster, if its fortold by God to his "prophets", a warning, and then relayed that to the people, the people have the choice to stay or to flee... I see God creating yet another oppertunity to excercise our freewill.
I cant find the corrilation to Romans though.
Warrior Poet
I cant find the corrilation to Romans though.
Warrior Poet
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Bulldog said:
to beleive that God causes evil to happen and causes some to not believe is to deny the very principal for which the bible stands for, and the description of god. God desires all to enter his kindom and wishes not s hould perish. its in teh bible, to believe that he causes people to pariish and not enter his kingdom, denies the teaching of the bible. to deny the word of god is to deny god and jesus, to deny god and jesus is....well i'll let you do the math.
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servant4ever
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What Romans 8:11 is saying is the Spirit of God lives in us, and we will be raised from the dead when Christ returns. What Amos 3:6-7 says is shown in 2 Kings 20. God gave His warning that a disaster will come. Then Hezekiah prayed and repented, then He changed His mind. Thus God did not have to give disaster He warned of because we changed. I believe if humankind realized what God was going to do back in Genesis 6, the flood wouldn't have happened. God gave a warning to the world through Noah. Same with Egypt when the Israelites escaped. God gives us warnings through people and if we don't repent, He has to bring His punishment.
Have a wonderful Easter,
servant4ever
Have a wonderful Easter,
servant4ever
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I meant Romans 11:8:
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"I do not intend to spend any time at all proving to you the general truth that God is sovereign in His world. There is no need; for I know that, if you are a Christian, you believe this already. How do I know that? Because I know that, if you are a Christian, you pray; and the recognition of God's sovereignty is the basis of your prayers. In prayer, you ask for things and give thanks for things. Why? Because you recognize taht God is the author and source of all the good that you hope for in the future. This is the fundamental philosophy of Christian prayer. The prayer of a Christian is not an attempt to force God's hand, but a humble acknowledgement of helplessness and dependence. When we are on our knees, we know that it is not we who control the world." - J.I. Packer
"Nor, again, am I going to spend time proving to you the particular truth that God is sovereign in salvation. For that, too, you believe already. Two facts show this. In the first place, you give God thanks for your conversion. Now why do you do that? Because you know in your heart that God was entirely responsible for it. You did not save yourself; He saved you. Your thanksgiving is itself an acknowledgment that your conversion was not your own work, but His work. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you came under Christian influence when you did. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you attended a Christian church, that you heard the Christian gospel, that you had Christian friends, and perhaps, a Christian home, that the Bible fell into your hands, that you saw your need of Christ and came to trust Him as your Saviour. You do not attribute your repenting and believing to your own wisdom, or prudence, or sound judgment, or good sense. Perhaps, in the days when you were seeking Christ, you laboured and strove hard, read and pondered much, but all that outlay of effort did not make your conversion your own work. Your act of faith when you closed with Christ was yours in the sense that it was you who performed it; but that does not mean that you saved yourself. In fact, it never occurs to you to suppose that you saved yourself. You would never dream of dividing the credit for your salvation between God and yourself. You have never for one moment supposed that the decisive contribution to your salvation was yours and not God's. You have never told God that, while you are grateful for the means and opportunities of grace that He gave you, you realize that you have to thank, not Him, but yourself for the fact that you responded to His call. Your heart revolts at the very thought of talking to God in such terms. You give God all the glory for all that your salvation involved, and you know that it would be blasphemy if you refused to thank Him for bringing you to faith. Thus, in the way that you think of your conversion and give thanks for your conversion, you acknowledge the sovereignty of divine grace. And every other Christian in the world does the same." - J.I. Packer
Food for thought.
"Nor, again, am I going to spend time proving to you the particular truth that God is sovereign in salvation. For that, too, you believe already. Two facts show this. In the first place, you give God thanks for your conversion. Now why do you do that? Because you know in your heart that God was entirely responsible for it. You did not save yourself; He saved you. Your thanksgiving is itself an acknowledgment that your conversion was not your own work, but His work. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you came under Christian influence when you did. You do not put it down to chance or accident that you attended a Christian church, that you heard the Christian gospel, that you had Christian friends, and perhaps, a Christian home, that the Bible fell into your hands, that you saw your need of Christ and came to trust Him as your Saviour. You do not attribute your repenting and believing to your own wisdom, or prudence, or sound judgment, or good sense. Perhaps, in the days when you were seeking Christ, you laboured and strove hard, read and pondered much, but all that outlay of effort did not make your conversion your own work. Your act of faith when you closed with Christ was yours in the sense that it was you who performed it; but that does not mean that you saved yourself. In fact, it never occurs to you to suppose that you saved yourself. You would never dream of dividing the credit for your salvation between God and yourself. You have never for one moment supposed that the decisive contribution to your salvation was yours and not God's. You have never told God that, while you are grateful for the means and opportunities of grace that He gave you, you realize that you have to thank, not Him, but yourself for the fact that you responded to His call. Your heart revolts at the very thought of talking to God in such terms. You give God all the glory for all that your salvation involved, and you know that it would be blasphemy if you refused to thank Him for bringing you to faith. Thus, in the way that you think of your conversion and give thanks for your conversion, you acknowledge the sovereignty of divine grace. And every other Christian in the world does the same." - J.I. Packer
Food for thought.
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