How Preterism Changes our Mindset

jenlu · Jun 18, 2002

Didakomenos,

I'm not sure, but I think preterist believe that is already been fulfilled and happening now...partial preterists and postmillenialists put that at the end of history...hopefully a preterist will respond...

parousia70 · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light the nations will walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. (Revelation 21:23-25)

Is this in the preterist view yet to come? The eventual culmination of the Kingdom of God brought about by God through the Church?

It's gates will never be shut, and Kings "bring their glory into it"

I don't see how it can be exegeted from this verse that this is anything other than a never ending process.

Kings bringing their glory into the city. nowhere does it say Kings will ever stop bringing their glory into it.

If, as futurism espouses, the city only contains a finite number of souls,ie; the saved of all the ages, how could Kings continue to bring their glory into it? The gates are never shut, and the spirit and the bride call out to all who thirst outside the city to "come!" enter freely and drink the water of Life.

As Jenlu guessed, I believe this describes the new covenant reality we live in today, a never ending process of the "increase of His government" (Is.9:7)

Didaskomenos · Jun 18, 2002

Do you have an explanation for the word "kings"? I mean, obviously it doesn't mean world leaders in any sense if it's supposed be happening currently.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by davo

Ok joe, you can explain away that scripture using someone elses faulty interpretation of that scripture -do you likewise explain away the rest?

As good and as important as science is, it [science] isn't the final arbitrator on truth -at least for "believers" -well, this one anyway. 100 years ago science held "100 laws of scientific fact" -they are all now debunked -why, because science has gained a better understanding of God's good creation. Science changes [it has to] -truth doesn't.

Christ upholds "all things" [the physical world included] by the word of His power, and "in Him all things hold together." [if you believe it -I do ]

davo

Well said Davo. :clap:

Our futurist brothers seem to also take the words of men about science over that which is clearly written in the Bible. Christ upholds all things.

Didaskomenos · Jun 18, 2002

Don't lose track of my question! Is it metaphorical? Fulfilled? Being fulfilled? The ideal the Church should reach for in administering the Kingdom of God?

GTX · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70

Well said Davo. Our futurist brothers seem to also take the words of men about science over that which is clearly written in the Bible. Christ upholds all things.

So now you blame the futurists interpretation on science? I will take an automated response if your not available.

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by GTX
I will take an automated response if your not available.

Yeah, that "automated response" thing gets funnier and funnier every time you say it.

What do you expect them to do, hem and haw and say, "Gee, I don't know..."? I mean, just because they know the answers and can make them sound intelligent, you think it's "automated"? What makes their responses any more automated than your own? They answer the questions, address your concerns, and you respond with your automated response, "Is that your automated response?" or the like. Ironic.

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

It looks like you're missing the point on purpose to steer the conversation into Calvinism.

But since you asked, they're saying that the number is unlimited by the preterist interpretation of the Bible compared with the futurist view. It may in fact be limited by God. Here's what I mean.

What the futurists are saying is that all believers until the end of their "end times" are the only ones to be a part of the Kingdom. The preterists are saying that it is not limited thusly ("unlimited"), and that the time for salvation continues on and on past the futurists' cut-off date (namely, the institution of the Kingdom). In the eternal sense of Calvinism, all the additional souls included with the preterist interpretation might still be subject to God's election. In other words, this does not necessarily conflict with Calvinism. You can breathe now.

davo · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

G'day Joe, I'm not batting for predestination as such, yet it occurs to me -who says predestination only means a finite number to the elect? Is this a presupposition brought to the table?

davo

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

There is a difference between unlimited and infinite. No matter how many people get saved though out eternity, that number will always be finite. There will never be an infinite number of people saved. It is a mathematical impossibility. Think about it.

Ozark

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Good ol' Ozark! Pretty good.

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Well, that's true, too!

(this is fun!)

However, it shouldn't matter to a Calvinist whether God's number of elect has a cut-off point in history. The Bible doesn't say that God stops saving people at a certain point in history (according to the preterist view). Say he must predestine someone in order for them to be eligible for salvation - must you also say he has a certain finite number, or could his elect continue? It makes sense that if God was so hard-nosed as to elect just the right people, and since he said that he willed that no one perish, that his plan would consummate in a time in history in which all people are of the Elect.

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Personally, Joe, I am kinda with you. It doesn't strike a chord with me (although a lot of preterism does) that the world just continues ad infinitum in the same (yet ever "better") state. For one thing, there would always be a divide between the dead souls and the living. I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed. How can this be if in 3000 years, everybody alive is a believer and then they die and go to heaven - and that continues for eternity. That seems exceptionally odd, and I personally must have more biblical substantiation, because I just can't extrapolate that from the Bible as I read it.

davo · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

NO! Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

As Paul says in Eph 3:21 "world without end, Amen!" Our gospel has no "use-by-date" nor limited shelf life -it is eternal.

davo

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

The "world without end" verse seems to be a poetic benediction referring to a spiritual habitation of souls kosmos, but not necessarily the physical earth ge. Direct me to the other verses that seem to say that the earth will never end, please.

davo · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
The "world without end" verse seems to be a poetic benediction referring to a spiritual habitation of souls kosmos, but not necessarily the physical earth ge. Direct me to the other verses that seem to say that the earth will never end, please.

Apart from the obvious as stated in Rev 14:6 above, try:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

davo

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

Well, not technically. Something that has a beginning and is incremental can never truly be infinite by the very definition of infinity. At every point in time no matter how far out, it will always be finite. It really does not have to have a cut off point. This is a paradox that can drive a person a little batty if he thinks about it too much. However, I think this line of reasoning is getting a little far out if you know what I mean.

Here is a thought. Ephesians 2:4-7 says:

God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that in the AGES to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

I have not done a word study on the word "ages" in this passage, but I have always wondered why it is plural. Could it be that there are ages ahead that are beyond our current understanding? Just a thought.

Ozark

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

Yes, but even a plural is finite. I can have a barrel of apples, and if I keep eating them, eventually they'll run out.

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