To tithe, or not to tithe?

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Giving to the church is an expression of the Holy Spirit within you. Salvation is not accomplished thru good works, rather, good works are the fruit of salvation. If you have received salvation thru the shed blood of Jesus, your heart is ever searching for ways to give, because it is the desire of the Holy Spirit within you.

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Your confusing tithing with giving Ms Belle! There is a difference. I'm not saying that believers should not help those that are in need...It is still our duty to give to the poor and needy, because we are to have a "free will" giving from the heart, because "...God loveth a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7) and what does tithing have to do with good works and being filled with the holy spirit anyway? People who are lost tithe, does that mean they are filled with the holy spirit?
Tithing was a carnal law of the OT and there is not a single command in the NT to sacrifice or tithe...To Tithe is to sacrifice. To obey is better than sacrifice. Even in the Old Testament, at 1 Samuel 15:22, it is said that "...to obey is better than sacrifice..." The main teaching of Jesus Christ was to obey his Commandments. Tithe is another form of sacrificing to the Lord. But Jesus Christ has given himself as our sacrifice (Ephesians 5:2). Christians don't make sacrifices and offerings anymore, because Jesus fulfilled that obligation.

Giving 10% of you income is a sign that you are lost??!!

Nah! It does not.

Jesus called us to live sacrificial lives by the way, when he said, "Pick up your CROSS and follow me."

Franklin,

There are lots of verses in the NT that say we should expect to suffer afliction and persecution.

As for tithing, what about these verses?

Mark 12:41-44
41)And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42)And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43)And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44)For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

If Jesus was against tithing, this would have been a good time for Him to say it. Jesus taught us to do more than the law required, the law was just the minimum requirement.

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

There are lots of verses in the NT that say we should expect to suffer afliction and persecution.
As for tithing, what about these verses?
Mark 12:41-44
41)And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42)And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43)And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44)For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
If Jesus was against tithing, this would have been a good time for Him to say it. Jesus taught us to do more than the law required, the law was just the minimum requirement.

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Ms Belle, Just go back to what I said in post's #6, 12, 21
so I won't have to repeat myself.....
and Jesus is not talking about tithing in the passages your pointing out, he is talking about GIVING! Tithe was an OT carnel law that has been abolished! We no longer own ourselves, Christians are bought with a price. "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Corinthians 6:20). We are not to glorify God in buildings and in money

Originally posted by lambslove
Giving 10% of you income is a sign that you are lost??!!
Nah! It does not.
Jesus called us to live sacrificial lives by the way, when he said, "Pick up your CROSS and follow me."

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Lambs, where did you see me say that tithing is a sign a person is lost? and no Jesus didn't command us to live sacrificial lives either! He told us to keep His commandments and tithing and paying someone to preach the gospel isn't one of them.... picking up your cross and following Him is not a sacrifice it's a command! you need to start letting the scripture speak for itself and not let some preacher interpret it for you.

Originally posted by franklin


Lambs, where did you see me say that tithing is a sign a person is lost? and no Jesus didn't command us to live sacrificial lives either! He told us to keep His commandments and tithing and paying someone to preach the gospel isn't one of them.... picking up your cross and following Him is not a sacrifice it's a command! you need to start letting the scripture speak for itself and not let some preacher interpret it for you.

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You need to study some more. Here is a verse that specifically says ministers should be paid. And not just paid, but paid double!!

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."

Most of the "anti-tithing" I have heard on here sounds like people trying to hold onto their money. This is why you usually see so much emphasis placed on monetary giving - because this is what people typically have the hardest time parting with.

If you are not willingly giving to support you church and your minister you are not following scripture, you are dishonoring God's minister, and you are missing out on many blessings.

BTW, as far as hearing about tithing and giving in a church service - is it not the ministers responsibilty and duty to teach the flock about the principles of God and Christian living? This includes much more than a simple salvation message every week.

Franklin,

Did Jesus do away with tithing? No, nowhere in the NT does it say that tithing was done away with. We must assume that tithing is the will of God, not keeping the law as to legalism, but as the desire of our heart to please God. I don't see where you get the idea that a tithe is paying the preacher for sermons. You make it sound like buying tickets to watch a game. Do you think that all of the tithes goes into the preacher's pockets? You are sadly mistaken if you do. Most preachers are poor.

As you adhere to the letter of the "law" for NT saints, you have missed the spirit of the commandments of Jesus.

I think it's important to tithe. It's what helps a church grow and shows that money isn't our god. Now I have been to churches which seemed to only have 1 sermon. How much money can you give? Now this I think is wrong, if you have a sermon almost once a month on tithing I think the pastor needs to relook at things. I think this is a very tuff issue since we tend to want to hold on tight to our money and not tighly enough to God but at the same time some churches have let greed even enter into their hearts. Another thing that happens is they don't have enough faith in God and think that more sermons on tithing will = more money where a lot of times it just makes the members to the church decrease as they look else where.

Originally posted by franklin


Lambs, where did you see me say that tithing is a sign a person is lost? and no Jesus didn't command us to live sacrificial lives either! He told us to keep His commandments and tithing and paying someone to preach the gospel isn't one of them.... picking up your cross and following Him is not a sacrifice it's a command! you need to start letting the scripture speak for itself and not let some preacher interpret it for you.

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Wow! You need to go back and read your prior post again. It's exacly what you said. Tithing is OT and carnal, according to that post.

And Jesus did command us to live sacrificial lives. And who said that tithing has anything to do with paying someone to preach? And why would it be wrong to pay your pastor. And I do study the Bible on my own and no one thinks for me.

What exactly do you think it means to "pick up your cross and follow Me."? Don't you think Christ was saying that we should sacrifice our comfort and our plans to carry out His plans?

Talk about alienating the brethren! You just managed to insult me about half a dozen times in one post!

Originally posted by lambslove


Wow! You need to go back and read your prior post again. It's exacly what you said. Tithing is OT and carnal, according to that post.

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Lambs, What I was trying to say was that there are people who go to churches that tithe that are not saved ie tithe in order to be justified by good works etc, I wasn't saying that if you tithe you are lost! Maybe I needed to word it differently. That isn't what I was intending to say there Pilgrim! Please, chill out brother, if I insulted you, then I apologize..... I was just trying to make a distinction of what ms Belle was referring to about being filled with the holy spirit is all.

There are people who go to churches that don't tithe, that preach against tithing, and they are lost, too.

I think that God honors those who give to His Kingdom, more than those who refuse to give out of selfishness, greed and covetousness. I also think that whatever offering you give, 50 cents if that is what you have, God honors that. The widow's two mites were more valuable to God than all the other gifts, but who among us, we who own computers and pay for internet access, can't give more than two mites?

I think that if we aren't faithful to give to God, He will expect an answer for our unfaithfulness.

Originally posted by lambslove
There are people who go to churches that don't tithe, that preach against tithing, and they are lost, too.

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Now that we have the Holy Spirit, people give as they are led by the spirit
to give, without the burden of a set "price." It's important to understand
the difference. Just "giving" support to a church is NOT
called tithe in scripture. If you give "one-tenth" of all your possessions, then THAT would be tithe. Did you ever give one-tenth of all your possessions to the church? If not, then you have never tithed to a
church in your life. If you are saying those who disagree with tithing are lost that would be no different than saying that if someone doesn't hold a church membership is lost also! I think you are getting a little judgemental here brother and that is not your job to judge others.

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

Did Jesus do away with tithing?

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Tithe was an OT carnel law that has been abolished! We no longer own ourselves, Christians are bought with a price. "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Corinthians 6:20). We are not to glorify God in buildings and in money.

No, nowhere in the NT does it say that tithing was done away with. [/B]

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Hebrew 7:12 says there was a change of the priesthood laws, tithes being one of these "carnal commandments" (verse 16) that were changed!!! What can be more clearer than this chapter to show that tithe was abolished? Just look it up for yourself and if I'm wrong let me know, I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm just trying to allow the scripture to be it's own interpreter.

We must assume that tithing is the will of God, not keeping the law as to legalism, but as the desire of our heart to please God. [/B]

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To Tithe is to sacrifice. To obey is better than sacrifice. Even in the Old Testament, at 1 Samuel 15:22, it is said that "...to obey is better than sacrifice..." The main teaching of Jesus Christ was to obey his Commandments. Tithe is another form of sacrificing to the Lord. But Jesus Christ has given himself as our sacrifice (Ephesians 5:2). Christians don't make sacrifices and offerings anymore, because Jesus fulfilled that obligation.

I don't see where you get the idea that a tithe is paying the preacher for sermons. You make it sound like buying tickets to watch a game. [/B]

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Ms Belle, just "giving" support to a church is NOT
called tithe in scripture. If you gave "one-tenth" of all your possessions, then THAT would be tithe. Did you ever give one-tenth of all your possessions to the church? If not, then you have never tithed to a
church in your life. The word "tithe" literally means "tenth. It usually referred to possessions.

As you adhere to the letter of the "law" for NT saints, you have missed the spirit of the commandments of Jesus. [/B]

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Now that we have the Holy Spirit, people give as they are led by the spirit to give (not tithe), without the burden of a set price (tithe). It's important to understand
the difference.
In the Old Testament, the tithe was given to support the spreading of God's Word, by giving livestock and money. Tithe was given to the priests of God, in the house of God (Neh.10:35-38).
In the New Testament, there is not a single command given to Christians to tithe. This should be in response to your first statement above.....
In the Old Testament, the only way to worship God was to physically go to the house (a building) of God in Jerusalem.
In the New Testament, our bodies are the house of God (Romans 8:9-11, 1 Corinthians 3:9,16,17; 6:19-20, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Revelation 21:3), and no longer is a physical church required for worship (Acts 7:48; 17:24).
Ms Belle, sorry to go so long here and thank you for showing me how to master the art of dividing up quotes!
Blessings sister,
Franklin

You need to tithe just like you need to fast. Both need to be done. People that work in ministry need to be paid and things for ministry need to be shouldered by the church.

This is a dangerous thing to do, jumping in to an already advanced discussion. Franklin your doing an excellent job, go,man,go! This is an issue my wife and I have mediatated and prayed long over. We go to a church that really,really, gets excited over tithing. I was taught a little diffrently.
There is a bit of confusion here. It seems that those who believe that you must tithe think that if you teach other wise you are trying to keep all your money,which is far away from the truth. The tithe was established in the old covenant to make sure that the levites and ministers were provided for. The new covenant is much stricter, its command is Give. Give what? What ever it takes to meet the need. Give as the Holy Spirit leads you. that is far and away more than just a tenth. We are New Creation Men (and ladies) ALL we have ALL we are belongs to the Lord and Creator of the Universe Our Lord Jesus Christ, and he disposes as he wills. thats alot tougher than Just caculating a tenth.
Anyway this is what I have come to, would love to hear others. this is a thread I need to follow.

God Bless Pete

Originally posted by LouisBooth
You need to tithe just like you need to fast. Both need to be done. People that work in ministry need to be paid and things for ministry need to be shouldered by the church.

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Booth, and where did you get this information from? If you are going to participate in the discussion why don't you give me something with a little more substance than this Booth! You never have any scriptual evidence to back up any of your arguments! So I would suggest that you open up your sword (Bible) find the scriptures and let those scriptures speak on it's own without the aid of some seminary trained entertainer (preacher) ok?! And how did fasting get into this discussion anyway?! The only thing fasting does for me is it makes me very hungry! You probably would have made a great ambassador during the old covenant age!

Originally posted by franklin

Ms Belle, sorry to go so long here and thank you for showing me how to master the art of dividing up quotes!

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Franklin, I give you an "A" in Quotes 101 Class!

Hebrew 7:12 says there was a change of the priesthood laws, tithes being one of these "carnal commandments" (verse 16) that were changed!!! What can be more clearer than this chapter to show that tithe was abolished? Just look it up for yourself and if I'm wrong let me know, I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm just trying to allow the scripture to be it's own interpreter.

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Well, Franklin, you have caused me to go back and read the scriptures, which is always a good thing. When I read the entire chapter of Hebrews 7, I believe the main idea here is to acertain that Jesus is our high priest, even as Melchizedek was the high priest to Abraham. Even as Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, I think the scripture is saying we also tithe to Jesus.

Using the Living Translation, because it is easier for me to understand, here is what I get from it:

Hebrews 7
Verses 1-2
"This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of God Most High. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against many kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him. 2)Then Abraham took a tenth of all he had won in the battle and gave it to Melchizedek. His name means "king of justice." He is also "king of peace" because Salem means "peace." I interpret these verses to establish the fact that Melchizedek was the high priest, because Abraham gave his tithe to Melchizedek.

Verses 3-4
"There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors – no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God. 4)Consider then how great this Melchizedek was. Even Abraham, the great patriarch of Israel, recognized how great Melchizedek was by giving him a tenth of what he had taken in battle."
These verses compare the priesthood of Melchizedek to the priesthood of Jesus.

Verses 5-6
"Now the priests, who are descendants of Levi, are commanded in the law of Moses to collect a tithe from all the people, even though they are their own relatives. 6)But Melchizedek, who was not even related to Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham. And Melchizedek placed a blessing upon Abraham, the one who had already received the promises of God." Theses verses are a marvel that Abraham would give his tithe to Melchizedek! Why did Abraham do this? I believe these verses give an example to us, that Jesus is our high priest and we should give our tithes to Jesus.

Verses 7-8
"And without question, the person who has the power to bless is always greater than the person who is blessed. 8)In the case of Jewish priests, tithes are paid to men who will die. But Melchizedek is greater than they are, because we are told that he lives on."
Wow, these verses confirm that Melchizedek was greater than Abraham! Abraham gave his tithe to Melchizedek, which is an example to us, that we should give our tithe to Jesus.

Verses 9-10
"In addition, we might even say that Levi's descendants, the ones who collect the tithe, paid a tithe to Melchizedek through their ancestor Abraham. 10)For although Levi wasn't born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham's loins when Melchizedek collected the tithe from him."
Theses verses confirm the priesthood of Jesus, and seems to confirm the paying of tithes to Jesus

Verses 11-12
"And finally, if the priesthood of Levi could have achieved God's purposes – and it was that priesthood on which the law was based – why did God need to send a different priest from the line of Melchizedek, instead of from the line of Levi and Aaron? 12)And when the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it."
The priesthood was given to Melchizedek. The law that was changed was the law which confirmed the priesthood of Levi. The law of the priesthood of Levi had to be changed in order to permit the preisthood of Melchizedek.

Verses 13-15
"For the one we are talking about belongs to a different tribe, whose members do not serve at the altar. 14)What I mean is, our Lord came from the tribe of Judah, and Moses never mentioned Judah in connection with the priesthood. 15)The change in God's law is even more evident from the fact that a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has now come."
Again, these verses confirm the priesthood on Jesus. The change in the priesthood is the message of Hebrews chapter 7!!

Verses 16-17
"He became a priest, not by meeting the old requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17)And the psalmist pointed this out when he said of Christ, "You are a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek."
These verses further confirm the changing of the priesthood--the EVIDENCE of this change in priesthood is that Abraham gave his tithe to Melchizedek, and is now given to Jesus!

Verses 18-22
"Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless. 19)For the law made nothing perfect, and now a better hope has taken its place. And that is how we draw near to God. 20)God took an oath that Christ would always be a priest, but he never did this for any other priest. 21)Only to Jesus did he say, "The Lord has taken an oath and will not break his vow: 'You are a priest forever.'" 22)Because of God's oath, it is Jesus who guarantees the effectiveness of this better covenant."
The old requirement was that the priesthood belonged to the priests of Levi, which was not a perfect law. The priesthood of Jesus is eternal, the priesthood of Jesus IS PERFECT!

Verses 23-28
"Another difference is that there were many priests under the old system. When one priest died, another had to take his place. 24)But Jesus remains a priest forever; his priesthood will never end. 25)Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save everyone who comes to God through him. He lives forever to plead with God on their behalf. 26)He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has now been set apart from sinners, and he has been given the highest place of honor in heaven. 27)He does not need to offer sacrifices every day like the other high priests. They did this for their own sins first and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this once for all when he sacrificed himself on the cross. 28)Those who were high priests under the law of Moses were limited by human weakness. But after the law was given, God appointed his Son with an oath, and his Son has been made perfect forever."
These verses testify to the sacrifice Jesus made for us, a blood sacrifice, not of animals, but a perfect and Holy sacrifice of Christ's own Blood, which was shed for us at Calvary.

Now Franklin, skip forward to Hebrews 13: 15-16
"15)With Jesus' help, let us continually offer our sacrifice of praise to God by proclaiming the glory of his name. 16)Don't forget to do good and to share what you have with those in need, for such sacrifices are very pleasing to God."

Originally posted by pcmixoye
This is a dangerous thing to do, jumping in to an already advanced discussion. Franklin your doing an excellent job, go,man,go! This is an issue my wife and I have mediatated and prayed long over. We go to a church that really,really, gets excited over tithing. I was taught a little diffrently.
There is a bit of confusion here. It seems that those who believe that you must tithe think that if you teach other wise you are trying to keep all your money,which is far away from the truth. The tithe was established in the old covenant to make sure that the levites and ministers were provided for. The new covenant is much stricter, its command is Give. Give what? What ever it takes to meet the need. Give as the Holy Spirit leads you. that is far and away more than just a tenth. We are New Creation Men (and ladies) ALL we have ALL we are belongs to the Lord and Creator of the Universe Our Lord Jesus Christ, and he disposes as he wills. thats alot tougher than Just caculating a tenth.
Anyway this is what I have come to, would love to hear others. this is a thread I need to follow.
God Bless Pete

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Hi there brother Pete, Good to hear from you and keep posting more, I'm look forward to more of your posts soon.

Cheers

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Franklin, I give you an "A" in Quotes 101 Class!

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Thanks for the 'A'

Well, Franklin, you have caused me to go back and read the scriptures, which is always a good thing. When I read the entire chapter of Hebrews 7, I believe the main idea here is to acertain that Jesus is our high priest, even as Melchizedek was the high priest to Abraham. Even as Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, I think the scripture is saying we also tithe to Jesus.[/B]

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Whew, you did your home work girl! and a run for my money! oops! maybe I shouldn't have said money?
I see what your saying about the high priests as compared to Christ who is our high priest, however, let me see if I can explain this as best I know how.. I did explain something similar in post # 33 if you go back and read that. In Heb7:16, it talks about the carnel commandments of the OC law.... now, when you come to vs16 you will see what it says about the change in these laws, it seems like it is very clear as it campares the OC preists to Christ who was not made after the law of a carnel commandment, but after the power of an endless life. That doesn't mean we sacrifice to Jesus. He offered the final sacrifice of Himself as in the passages you pointed out vs27.... for this he did once, when he offered up himself. This by no means is telling us to sacrifice to Christ. If we were to do that we would be going back into the OC routine of sacrificing again. Tithe is another form of sacrificing to the Lord. But Jesus Christ has given himself as our sacrifice (Ephesians 5:2). Christians don't make sacrifices and offerings anymore, because Jesus fulfilled that obligation. Our giving is now based on how we are moved by the spirit to give as it leads us in that and not with some set price as a tithe (tenth). The tithe BTW, referred to possessions as I said in my other posts.
Does this seem to make sence to you? That's what I am getting out of it when the scripture speaks for itself. You sure drive a tough bargain and I thank you for the challenge Ms Belle... Let me know if this explains anything & hey I don't claim to have all the answers but I sure appreciate it when someone comes back with solid substance like you have demonstrated here! It looks like you must have been up all night putting all those passages together! BTW, I still have a hard time trying to use text in different colors! Guess I need to practice more!

To Tithe is to sacrifice. To obey is better than sacrifice.

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Where on earth did THIS idea come from. You really ought to know what you are talking about before you say something like this. Tithe was NOT sacrifice, it was the nominal amount due to the temple.

Sacrifice was the additional offering of material goods as prescribed by Leviticus and Deuteronomy for certain holidays, for sins, for peace, etc. Whether or not you ever sacrificed, the tithe was still due, period. The tithe was due on the increase of every crop, whether a fruit crop, a vegie crop, a livestock crop, etc. 10% of your annual income was due.

Sacrifices and offerings were given IN ADDITION to the tithe!