Revealing the Love of God

While going about my duties in society I have heard a popular song by Alan Jackson that was inspired by the September 11 tragedy. Many of you have probably heard the song as well. Mr. Jackson reflects "where were you when the world stopped turning" and in the chorus he states "I know Jesus and I talk to God". He continues the spiritual note with "faith hope and love are some good things He gave us , but the greatest is love".

As Mr. Jackson professes to be a christian he seems to represent modern christianity in a general sense. We all know that we are to love others. Jesus said that we are His disciples IF we "love one another". Most of you teach your children that they should love others even if some wrong has been done to them.

National statistics suggest that over 90% of Americans are pleased with President Bush's "war on terrorism". Mr. Bush represents himself as a christian as well and has often petitioned God to "Bless America".

This scenario of Americans professing to follow God and saying that they do what Jesus would do brings a great perplexity to my soul.

Jesus said "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34

Do any of you really believe in your hearts that Jesus would pull out an M16 and shoot people that He thought might injure Himself?

Would Jesus throw grenades at others to demonstrate how much He loves them?

Would Jesus drop "smart" bombs on others to make them behave as He would want them to, intentionally killing women and children civilians?

Did Jesus not say that one should turn the other cheek if someone slaps you? Has Amerianity (Americanized Christianity) turned the other cheek to those who have injured them?

One of Steven Curtis Chapman's songs starts out with the words "where is the love... where is the love". Alan Jackson says "the greatest is love" echoing Pauls exoneration in Corinthians 13. Jesus gave us a new commandment, that we "love one another". Is it love when we murder those whom we do not agree?

As I listen to the christian music and evangelist suggesting thoughts such as the mercy of God and His great love for men, I have asked myself "where is that love"? Has one been loved when their body has been embraced by a cluster bomb?

Just wondering!
 

TheBear

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Well, if you believe that God is also a Just God, and that countless people will suffer the everlasting separation from God, then you you had better believe that God would surely have any nation defend itself. And, your judgements of a man's heart are condemnable.

Some people have their heads so far up in the lofty clouds, they are no earthly good. :(


John
 
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seebs

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What I will do will often differ from what Jesus would do, *because I can't raise the dead*. I can't heal the sick. I can't do much of anything, so I have to make a lot of hard choices.

So... While, in an ideal world, everyone would live and learn... in this world, if someone has to die, better it not be the innocent bystanders, whenever that can be arranged, and that implies killing the people who target innocent bystanders.
 
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I guess you folk must not be bible believing Christians, or maybe your version says something different than mine. It says right here that:

Whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them. Matt 7:12

Would you really want your country to be obliterated by 6 months or 6 years of bombing? It seemed like one day of bombing in NYC was a lot of grief, let alone 6 months worth. It looks like the reverse of the above scripture would be true as well. If a country wants to be murdered, they should go out and murder others. I can see heathen people doing that, but I thought that America said they followed God, and a loving God at that.

It says in another place:

"You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. ... "You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven... For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same?And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same? Matt. 5:38-48

It looks to me like America is doing a bit more than an eye for an eye. Speaking of killing innocent people. In December I read a report that documented that after only 3 months of bombing in Afghanistan, nearly 4000 civilian men, women and children had been killed by the American Christian soldiers. I have wondered what the total is now after 8 months of bombing. This did not include all the youth that have been slaughtered attempting to defend their religion by joining the Taliban soldiers. Would this be considered retaliation by the U.S.?

It would seem that if Christ were in the hearts of those who were slapped, they would not slug anyone back in defense. At least that is what it looks like to me. What does your bible say?

It sounds like you guys are saying “kill others first before they get a chance to kill you”. Is that what Jesus meant when he said:

Any man who makes it his object to keep his own life safe, will lose it; but whoever loses his life will preserve it. Luke 17:33

What do you think He meant by what He said?

There is another verse that I have wondered about its full meaning. It says:

All those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword. Matt. 26:52

Do you think that this could be reinterpreted to mean:

All those who live by the gun/bomb will die by the gun/bomb.

I once heard a song and the lyrics went something like this:

"Onward Christian soldiers, marching on to war..."

Is that why Americans are involved in so many wars? Some Americans think that by killing those they do not like it will convert everyone else to Amarica's God. Do you think that will really work in bringing people to Jesus?
 
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TheBear

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Give me some time to compile scripture that refutes what you are saying, and to show how extremely out of context your quotes are.

In the mean time, should the police departments have guns? (I am curious to see how far this whacked out concept is carried. :p )

John
 
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coastie

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What I suggest is to take this to a more personal level.

Think of your kids or your wife. If a man is holding a gun to your wife's head and you have the means to stop him from killing your wife, what would you do?

I took an oath a few years ago to "Do no harm" (hypocratic oath). As almost all who are in a medical field from field EMT's to Surgeons. However, if harm is to come to my wife, I will eliminate the threat because my wife doesn't deserve to die. She has done nothing to provoke this threat to her life. In the grand scheme, more harm would come if she were killed rather than the assailent.

I would absolutely take a shot at the guy, there is no question. If it were God's will for her to die, it would happen no matter what I do, but it would be wrong for me not to save her.

On the same note, it would be wrong for me to not lay down my life to save someone else. Here is my philosophy on that:

If a person can definately be saved through the loss of my life, the other's life takes precedence over mine. If it isn't certain that the person can be saved, I would be doing more harm by risking my life and therefore causing two deaths instead of one.

This all boils down to who's life do you value more, and through who's death can more lives be saved. I highly doubt that Jesus would have much of a problem with anyone killing someone for the greater good, and the cause of saving more lives than you are taking.

My $.02
 
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coastie

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Yes pray for them!

Sheesh... pray for them. Going after them as revenge would be like killing out of hate. That verse does not say do not kill them when they pose a threat to a large populace.

That scenario isn't an applicable analogy.
 
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Can you tell me how what the U.S. is doing is not revenge? Can you tell me how the U.S. is lovingly blowing to bits women and children in Afghanistan?

The U.S. lost nearly 3000 citizens. It has killed neartly 12,000 in retaliation. Who is the bigger criminal? Can you show me from the bible where it states "kill them if they pose a threat to a large populace?
 
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coastie

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Great question...
Can you show me where in the Bible it says don't protect the innocent from being murdered by terrorists?



I'm not going to explain to you nor defend this countries decisions.

The original goal of the US was to eliminate the threat of further attacks. I'm not involved in the war, buddy. All the Coast Guard does is SAVE lives anymore.

That wasn't the point of your post. You came accross as if killing of any kind was wrong. I followed up by saying that if it is for the saving of innocent lives then it's a neccessary step toward maintaining peace (remeber: "blessed are the peace makers")

However, if you feel we must cease now and sit on our hands while the country is bombarded by terror attacks, you are definately in the minority. But I guess you're right huh? Shame on us! We are so evil, to go out and kill people that are planning to destroy us and Christianity itself.

Oh, I've prayed for them, I've prayed for the whole situation to end soon. I hate death and destruction as much as the next person, but your head is in the clouds.

I can see where this is going now and I'm done with this conversation. If you disagree, that's your perogative, but you should move to a nation that doesn't lift a finger to protect it's populace since you don't appreciate what so many people have died to secure for you in this one.
 
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TheBear

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First, let me just say that the Old Testament deals with governments, quite a bit, and the New Testament deals mostly with individuals. There are a couple of references to government in the New Testament, but they basically say the same thing, that is that the governments are ordained of God, and Jesus briefly alluded to government when He was asked the question about paying taxes. He basically said, "Give unto Ceaser, that which is Ceaser's, and give unto God, that which is God's." Other than those references, the New Tesatment, and Jesus Himself, did not really speak on governments and the military.

So, a distinction needs to be made between the heart of the individual Christian, and the role and responsibilities of the government.

Let's take a look at some scripture that goes to great lenghts, detailing the armies of the tribes of Israel, down to the exact number.

Numbers 2:3-34

3 On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah." 4 And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred. 5 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar." 6 And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred. 7 "Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun." 8 And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred. 9 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred--these shall break camp first. 10 "On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur." 11 And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred. 12 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai." 13 And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred. 14 "Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel." F2 15 And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty. 16 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty--they shall be the second to break camp. 17 And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards. 18 "On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud." 19 And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred. 20 "Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh, and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." 21 And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred. 22 "Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni." 23 And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred. 24 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred--they shall be the third to break camp. 25 "The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai." 26 And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred. 27 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran." 28 And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred. 29 "Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan." 30 And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred. 31 "All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred--they shall break camp last, with their standards." 32 These are the ones who were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers' houses. All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces were six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty. 33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel, just as the Lord commanded Moses. 34 Thus the children of Israel did according to all that the Lord commanded Moses; so they camped by their standards and so they broke camp, each one by his family, according to their fathers' houses.


Now, the following scripture deals with the sovereignty of a nation, and how plunderers are delt with.

1 Samuel 14:47-48

47 So Saul established his sovereignty over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, against the people of Ammon, against Edom, against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he harassed them. 48 And he gathered an army and attacked the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them.

A reference is made in Hebrews.

Hebrews 11:32-34

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

I'm just getting warmed up, here. Give me some more time, and I will compile more scripture on this, and will show you how your quotes are out of context with what you are purporting.

By the way, you still need to address my filler question. Should police departments have guns?


John
 
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John,

The old testament scriptures that you quoted are the very ones that Jesus refered to when He said “you have heard it said”, like those I quoted on page one of this thread. That is why he brought a new covenant. So that men could learn to be sane instead of killing those they do not like.

If you were suggesting that the Levitical laws are still to be followed then half of our country would have to be killed (stoned) for commiting adultry. All the homosexuals would have to be put to death as well, so would all rebelious children. Again, Jesus demonstrated these practices were done away with. An example of this new life that He brought was demonstrated in His dealings with the adulterous woman in John chapter 8.

Your scriptures from Hebrews were about people who excercised great faith at one time or another. If a man had faith that God would divy out revenge when necissary (WTC), he would be letting God do that very thing and his name might be listed in a modern book of Hebrews as well.

As to your question about police having guns: They may do as they wish.
 
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TheBear

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Had Jesus ever said, "You heard it said that armies were built to protect the nations, but I say dismantle all armies"? No.

Isaiah 1:17

17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

Have these principles been overturned by Jesus, as well? No.

I think you take this a little out of context. Again, the teachings of Christ, are geared towards the individual, not nations, until we get into Revelations. You seem to be overlooking this point. Also, Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."


Revelations 2:23-27

23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. 24 Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father;

I wonder what is being described here....hmmm....'rule them with a rod of iron'....'they shall be dashed to pieces like a potter's vessel'. What could possibly 'dash to pieces like the potter's vessel', a man or town?

Show me where Jesus teaches that nations should dismantle their armies, Terry. You can't, because He doesn't. About the only reference Jesus makes to armies, other than in Revelations, is in Luke, where He discribes Israel being so outnumbered and surrounded by the Gentile armies, that He suggests that the Israelties flee. He is describing the beginning of the end.

As far as the police having guns, your response is a little elusive. Let me rephrase the question. Is it right, in the eyes of God, that police departments have guns?

John
 
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TheBear

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Whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them. Matt 7:12

Addressing individual Christians, not nations or governments.

"You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. ... "You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven... For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same?And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same? Matt. 5:38-48

Addressing individual Christians, not nations or governments.

Any man who makes it his object to keep his own life safe, will lose it; but whoever loses his life will preserve it. Luke 17:33

Addressing individual Christians, not nations or governments.

All those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword. Matt. 26:52

This is one of the most misquoted scriptures, ever.

Let's take a look at that scripture in context.

Matthew 26:51-56

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

Several observations to be noted here. He knew that His sword carrying followers were outnumbered, did not stand a chance against the garison, and would be killed if they decided to fight. Secondly, He knew that this has to come to pass in order to fullfill scripture. Thirdly, HIS SWORD CARRYING FOLLOWERS!!!!

John
 
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You quoted from Is.1 in your previous post:

Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

O that you could understand even the slightest bit of this verse. Learn to do good to citizens in the countries that you desire to overthrow. Seek justice in your own land so that the billions of people who call the United States “The Great Satan” would not have a good reason for doing it. Rebuke your oppressive government who will not let other nations buy or sell unless they bow down to the demands of America. Defend the fatherless children in the many countries who, as we speak, are being starved to death because of the bombings that your tax dollars have paid for. Plead for the life of the widow in those nations where your government prevents medicines from becoming available to the thousands per month who are dying in the streets.

Did Jesus tell you not to eat dog dung? Does that mean you should go out and do it just because he did not make mention of it? Murder is just as reprehensible to the true follower of Christ.

Have you not sang the following song before?

I'm going to lay down
my sword and shield,
Down by the Riverside!
Down by the Riverside!
Down by the Riverside!
I'm going to lay down
my sword and shield,
Down by the Riverside!
And I ain't gonna study war no more!

(chorus)

I ain't gonna study war no more!
I ain't gonna study war no more!
I ain't gonna study war no more!

This song is based on the following verse from Is. 2:4-5

The LORD will settle international disputes. All the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. All wars will stop, and military training will come to an end.Come, people of Israel, let us walk in the light of the LORD!


Jesus said:

A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you. John 13

He had to say this because the Jew hated all those who did not play their game. Go ask a little child what these verses mean and they will tell you.

Concerning your reference to ruling with a rod of iron from Rev 2. There is only One that is able to fulfill that task.


Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. And the one sitting on the horse was named Faithful and True. For he judges fairly and then goes to war. His eyes were bright like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him, and only he knew what it meant. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in pure white linen, followed him on white horses. From his mouth came a sharp sword, and with it he struck down the nations. He ruled them with an iron rod, and he trod the winepress of the fierce wrath of almighty God. On his robe and thigh was written this title: King of kings and Lord of lords. Rev 19:11-16

Clearly Jesus is the One able to rule the nations with a rod of iron. He also gave an example of what "ruling with a rod of iron" looks like when He spent His three years demonstrating what the kingdom of heaven should look like. He said:

“My kingdom is not of this world, If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight... John 18:38

For those whose kingdoms are of this world, by all means go fight! Go kill! Go murder the innocents of the world. Tell them of your loving God as you scatter your bombs across their land. Tell them that if they do not convert to your religion you will punish them severely. But remember one thing, you will reap what you sow.

Yes, there is a Christ who desires to rule the nations, but it is not the meek and lowly One. It is your high and exalted one who said: “Either you are 100% for US or you are against US.” Yes this is the Antichrist who puts himself in the place of God.

You have taught me a lot friend. In a general sense, professed American Christianity is just like the Jews were at the time of Christ. They loved those who patted them on the back. They hated all those who do not join their church. The biggest difference between the modern professed believers and the Jew of old is that the U.S. has the most powerful, the most trained, the most funded killing military machine that has ever been on the planet. If the Jews had the might that the U.S. has, they would have ruled with the rod of iron, but God would not have been involved in their antics.

The amazing thing is that as they (U.S.) have slaughtered the millions through the years they have claimed that they are actually loving everybody. Were it not so tragic it would be downright hilarious.

I will put this in very simple terms that I’m sure you will understand. Modern America (apostate Christianity) has the same spirit that Adolph Hitler had. Can you give me one example to disprove this notion?

I will give you some examples of how it is true.

Hitler murdered those who got in his way as does your government leaders. Unlike the Spirit of Christ, the U.S. has been murdering in country after country in succession immediately after they slaughtered the American Indian.

Hitler's final attempt at world supremacy was called “Free Germany” with an emblem of a flag and an eagle. All to similar to “Operation Enduring Freedom”.

Hitler brought in a multitude of “security measures” into his country prior to his end, just as the U.S. has done to its people.

Hitler killed those he did not like. And the U.S., they do the same calling it “ridding the world of evil”.

Following is a partial list of those nations the U.S. has “loved”.


* China (1945-46, 1950-53)
* Korea (1950-53)
* Guatemala (1954, 1967-69)
* Indonesia (1958)
* Cuba (1959-60)
* the Belgian Congo (1964)
* Peru (1965), Laos (1964-73)
* Vietnam (1961-73)
* Cambodia (1969-70)
* Grenada (1983)
* Libya (1986)
* El Salvador (1980s)
* Nicaragua (1980s)
* Panama (1989)
* Iraq (1991-99)
* Bosnia (1995)
* Sudan (1998)
* Yugoslavia (1999)
* Afghanistan-indefinatey
* The "Rogue" Nations of the Earth are next. The interpretation of "Rogue" is whatever the leaders want it to be at the time.

I will leave you to your ways as we follow two different masters. One was a murder from the beginning. The other does not lift a finger to save His life.
 
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Auntie

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Talk is cheap and you, Terry, have no idea what you're talking about. Are you American? If you are, the only reason you have the luxury of sitting at a computer typing is because some GI gave his life for you. Some GI somewhere fought and died for you and died in your place. And that same GI bought you your freedom of speech to sit here and slander him and the USA.

All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. And you would be well pleased if evil flourished. You call this thread "Revealing the Love of God", when all you have done is reveal your own hate, anger, and ignorance.

Good-bye and good riddance. You don't deserve to live in America.
 
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On the contrary, I was born free. No one but my Father in heaven has kept me safe. He has been my only protector. No one has attempted to take my “freedom” away except your government.

Many well meaning U.S. men and women have fought and died. The Taliban and the Palestinians do the same thing as well. They give their life for their country. They go and fight because think they are doing what is right and they love it. These "heathen" also think they will get to go to heaven for their brave deeds, just like the Americans do.

Our military is not defending America. They are conquering the world. The U.S. military is stationed in 100 countries. That is not defensiveness. That is what military forces do when they are in, or desire to take control of another piece of land.

If one were to defend themselves they would block a punch when it came at them. If another punch came they would block it as well. The “Hockey Dad” demonstrated how a worldly man defends himself. Now he sits behind bars so that he can have time to think.

If a missile was shot at North America, a counter missile would be fired up and shoot the enemy missile out of the ski. The true believer would stand back and watch God blast the missile out of the air. This would be defensiveness. Most of the U.S. military budget is not spent on defensiveness but on offensiveness. Sure it works for football, but Christians live under a different set of guidelines.

What America has done is called being the aggressor. The list from the previous post proves that to any thinking individual. The policy shift has come around again. The U.S. has decided if they even think another country could possibly deliver a blow to them, they will fire the first nuclear weapon and toast the supposed bad guy. Who knows if you were even told the truth about what the bad guy was really up to!

This is not defensiveness. These are acts of aggression. This is trying to save ones life. It never works in the long run.

Evil flourishes because men, whose hearts are just as evil, teach their citizens to view others as the "axis of evil".
 
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TheBear

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Oh, I get it. This is not about militaries in general, at all. This is a hit piece, directed specifically at the U.S.

You have cleverly danced around the scripture I've given you, with winded explainations. You trow in a few non-docrtinal 'songs' to make your point. You never address why Jesus did not rebuke any follower who carried a sword. You never answered the police having guns question, without a nice little tap dance. Your agruments are disingenious, at best.

I am out of here, Terry. You cannot or will not see scripture for what it is. And, as Gerry said, you are a wonderful example of how one cannot understand the Scriptures without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Have fun in your anti-American campaign. Why don't you just leave this country, and live in a 'better' place. If you do that, you may seem a little more sincere and credible about your perceptions.


John
 
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This is a very tough debate to try to simply apply the bible to. This is not to say we shouldn't try to view national actions in the 21st century from a Christian perspective, but it is clear that more simplistic statements like "turn the other cheek" or "though shalt not kill" don't necessarily apply to war in the 21st century.
That being said, I can see some merit in both arguments in this thread. The bible makes clear that a nation is entitled to self defence, and indeed God aided in the self defence of the nation of Israel on many occasions. Historically, a preemptive strike when against another nation is not always viewed as "evil". For instance, in the 6-day war in 1967, the Israelites actually struck the first blow, but it was clear that Egypt and Jordan were preparing to laungh an attack on Israel. So to make a blanket "aggressive wars are always wrong" is to be innocent in the realities of warfare.

The bible also gives some rules as to how warfare should be conducted. Unfortunately many nations (including the US) tend not to follow them, especially in the 20th century. Some of these rules include the killing of civilians, destruction of land (ie. scorched earth policy), etc. During the Cold War, in an effort to protect American interests, the US at times ignored both of those rules for warfare, most notably in places like Vietnam. However, the USSR, Nazi Germany, Britain, and even Canada at times also ignored these rules of warfare, so to pick out the US is to ignore the actions of other nations.

Yes, some actions taken by the US in the past can definitely be seen as imperialist and aggressive. But such actions were also taken by every other world superpower in the history of the world. If you apply biblical rules of warfare and morality to American actions, they must be equally applied to every other powerful nation.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
 
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