Soul Sleep

Maximus · Feb 8, 2006

Perhaps you all would like to try explaining the following passage again, because your initial explanation was indecipherable to me.

1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Were the spirits spoken of in this passage, who lived and were disobedient during the time of Noah, "asleep?"

Did our Lord wake them up to preach the Gospel to them and then put them back to "sleep?"

ThreeAM · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
Sorry, but the Scripture nowhere says that. In fact, it says explicitly that Samuel was speaking with Saul.

Once again, you are attempting to explain away in terms of your own "soul sleep" presuppositions a passage that explicitly says that Samuel spoke with Saul.

This clause must not be interpreted as meaning that it was actually Samuel who spoke. The writer simply describes events as they appeared, which is the normal way in a narrative. The Bible also speaks of the sun as rising and setting, and so do we. Nor is anyone deceived or confused by the fact that we are thus speaking simply of appearances. Actually, the sun does not rise and set, rather the earth revolves. In the verse before us the context and a comparison with other scriptures make clear that an impersonation of Samuel was uttering the sayings here attributed to the deceased prophet

It is evident, then, that the spirit of Samuel did not here communicate with Saul. There remains one other source for the intelligence. The Scriptures reveal that Satan and his angels have the ability to impart information and also to change their form (see Matt. 4:1–11; 2 Cor. 11:13, 14). The apparition that appeared to the woman of En-dor was a satanic impersonation of Samuel, and the message imparted had its origin in the prince of darkness.

Saul’s questions, together with the woman’s replies, are in themselves evidence that he did not see the apparition himself. Perhaps he was separated from the medium by a curtain, or perhaps he was standing directly before her in the midnight darkness of the cave. When she described the apparition, Saul "perceived that it was Samuel."

Why did they say? "to bring me up"

1 sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

1 sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

Bring me up. The expression "bring up" twice occurs. The ancients, in general, envisioned a subterranean region as the dwelling place of the dead. If the doctrine held by most Christians, that a righteous man ascends to heaven at death, had been held in this ancient period, the summons would have been to bring Samuel down, and the spirit-impersonator of Samuel would have said, "Why have you brought me down?" This one point in the record is sufficient in itself to rule out this narrative as proof in behalf of the doctrine of the conscious state of the righteous dead.

Maximus · Feb 8, 2006

Your explanation of that passage from 2 Samuel sounds too much like the justification of presuppositions in the face of an irreducible difficulty.

The Scripture says Saul spoke with Samuel, not with a demon impersonating Samuel.

The rest of your argument is so minute it has the definite ring of "clutching at straws."

Besides, you have failed to even attempt to explain away the other passages of Scripture that show that people continue to be conscious after death.

Tall73's "explanation" of Luke 16 was incredible. It has Jesus preaching myth when He could have just as easily told a story in line with "soul sleep," if soul sleep were true (which it is not).

My prediction for this thread is that the few SDAs who frequent GT will camp out here, as they do on Saturday sabbath threads, hoping to wear down the opposition by sheer numbers of posts, and certainly not via quality of argument or the weight of truth.

In the end, those who hold the historic orthodox Christian doctrine, i.e., that people remain conscious after death, will become tired and bored and leave the field to the SDAs, who will then engage in the usual round of mutual admiration posts, just like on those Saturday sabbath threads.

ThreeAM · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
Your explanation of that passage from 2 Samuel sounds too much like the justification of presuppositions in the face of an irreducible difficulty.

The Scripture says Saul spoke with Samuel, not with a demon impersonating Samuel.

The rest of your argument is so minute it has the definite ring of "clutching at straws."

Besides, you have failed to even attempt to explain away the other passages of Scripture that show that people continue to be conscious after death.

Tall73's "explanation" of Luke 16 was incredible. It has Jesus preaching myth when He could have just as easily told a story in line with "soul sleep," if soul sleep were true (which it is not).

My prediction for this thread is that the few SDAs who frequent GT will camp out here, as they do on Saturday sabbath threads, hoping to wear down the opposition by sheer numbers of posts, and certainly not via quality of argument or the weight of truth.

In the end, those who hold the historic orthodox Christian doctrine, i.e., that people remain conscious after death, will become tired and bored and leave the field to the SDAs, who will then engage in the usual round of mutual admiration posts, just like on those Saturday sabbath threads.

That is interesting comment coming from someone who has made 5,322 posts

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
Did the Lord wake Moses up for a special guest appearance and then put him back to "sleep?"

No, the Lord obtained his body and restored him to life. Do you not notice that it was his body that was contended for?

Did the Lord, Himself the truth incarnate, knowingly convey doctrinal falsehood in telling the story above?

Why did He not tell his hearers that both Lazarus and the rich man fell asleep?

Click to expand...

a. The truth of suffering and torment is all there. WE do not deny that.
b. you distort the story saying that it was his soul in hell. Where does it say that it was just his soul or spirit?
c. You make no attempt to explain why we are told here that people go DOWN and yet Jesus says His spirit would go to the father...up. How many places is He at once?

If "soul sleep" is true, why would the Lord engage in myth making for the sake of encouraging charity, when He could have encouraged charity by instilling fear of condemnation at the final judgment?

Click to expand...

actually He already did in the story of the steward.

How did Saul communicate with Samuel, if Samuel was "asleep?"

The Scripture does say it was Samuel himself that appeared to Saul, not a demon in disguise.

Click to expand...

Acutally it says in Chronicles that he consulted a medium with a familiar spirit. That sounds like a demon to me.

Moroever, Samuel, nor God would speak to him in life. Now he can, through a witch no less, force Samuel to speak?

In the passage above, Judas Maccabeus tells his men of a vision he had in which two "dead" men appeared to him, Onias the former high priest, and Jeremiah the prophet.

Even if one does not accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture (a mistake, of course), it does indicate that the Jews did not believe that the dead sleep in an unconscious state following death.

Click to expand...

of course not. Why not? Because this was after Alexander's Hellenistic inflluence. You also had priests playing naked in the olympic games and ignoring their duties. Is that biblical? Or cultural?

You are actually pointing out the ver thing I said. They were familiar with the view.

And if it is a mistake for us to rule out the deuterocanon, why do you refuse plain statements from the OT which you claim to accept?

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
Perhaps you all would like to try explaining the following passage again, because your initial explanation was indecipherable to me.

Were the spirits spoken of in this passage, who lived and were disobedient during the time of Noah, "asleep?"

Did our Lord wake them up to preach the Gospel to them and then put them back to "sleep?"

Perhaps you would like to explain it. Did the Lord give them another chance? what did He preach? who were they?
What did they do?

You don't truthfully know.

But what we do know is that the only spirits in prision that Peter mentions are ANGELS who are held until the day of judgement in chains.

Why would we assume he means otherwise here?

Maximus · Feb 8, 2006

ThreeAM said:
That is interesting coming from someone who has made 5,322 posts

Over about three years, and not on one or two types of threads.

The date my little flag gives for my joining CF is inaccurate. I joined a few months prior to that date, which was supplied after CF's big computer crash awhile back.

winslow · Feb 8, 2006

BalaamsAss51 said:
Hello bondmaidenofchrist.

Soul sleep (psychopannychism) is a view that the soul of a dead person exists in a state of sleep.

Scripture does not speak of soul sleep, but of souls after death in a state of awareness. Check out Revelation 6:10 - and the story in Luke 16:22-31 would make no sense either. "Rest in Rev 14:13 does not imply sleep. When we speak of the dead as sleeping, this refers to the body.

As eoe posted, this teaching is a made-up innovation by the Seventh Day Adventists. Actually, it is part and parcel of the teachings of the "Advent Christian Church" which is a splinter group of the Adventists in general. They purpose an unscriptural theory that death is a state of unconsciousness and that all men will remain in this soul sleep until the 2d coming of Christ.

Hopefully it goes without saying that this teaching is false.

Pax

Actually it is not an adventist "innovation", there are many faiths that believe in soul sleep that predate the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Seventh-day-Adventists have only one doctrine that is not shared by one group or another. Soul sleep is actually very scriptural. There are other threads on this if you care to go back and archive them.

Maximus · Feb 8, 2006

tall73 said:
Perhaps you would like to explain it. Did the Lord give them another chance? what did He preach? who were they?
What did they do?

You don't truthfully know.

But what we do know is that the only spirits in prision that Peter mentions are ANGELS who are held until the day of judgement in chains.

Why would we assume he means otherwise here?

There is no evidence that Christ suffered and died for fallen angels or that the Gospel is to be preached to fallen angels.

In Matthew 5, Jesus speaks of settling things with one's adversary lest that one be cast into prison. He said one would not emerge from prison until he paid the last farthing.

When Jesus spoke of the unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit, He said it would not be forgiven men either in this life or the one to come. The implication is that there are some sins which can and will be forgiven in the life to come, where one can "pay the last farthing" and emerge from prison.

Anyway, I do not have to demonstrate that I know every detail concerning the "spirits in prison" in order to refute your arguments.

All I have to show is that they were conscious after death.

That refutes "soul sleep," and that much is obvious.

We are told they were disobedient during the time of Noah and that Christ preached to them.

For whom did Christ live as the "last Adam" (Rom. 5; 1 Cor. 15) and suffer and die?

To whom is the Gospel preached?

Who were disobedient during the days of Noah?

The answer to all of those last three questions is mankind.

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
Your explanation of that passage from 2 Samuel sounds too much like the justification of presuppositions in the face of an irreducible difficulty.

And your explanations of the texts we present are what?
indeed, you have not even tried.

The Scripture says Saul spoke with Samuel, not with a demon impersonating Samuel.

My friend did you read the passage?

1Sa 28:7 Then said559 Saul7586 unto his servants,5650 Seek1245 me a woman802 that hath1172 a familiar spirit,178 that I may go1980 to413 her, and inquire1875 of her. And his servants5650 said559 to413 him, Behold,2009 there is a woman802 that hath1172 a familiar spirit178 at Endor.5874

his very qualification for finding the woman was that she worked by means of a familiar spirit, which God had forbidden.

It is affirmed again:

1Ch 10:13 So Saul7586 died4191 for his transgression4604 which834 he committed4603 against the LORD,3068 even against5921 the word1697 of the LORD,3068 which834 he kept8104 not,3808 and also1571 for asking7592 counsel of one that had a familiar spirit,178 to inquire1875 of it;

Now, tell me, was Samuel a demonic familiar spirit who was condemned by the Lord?

The rest of your argument is so minute it has the definite ring of "clutching at straws."

Bold talk from a man who has made NO attempt to explain the passages we present and ridicules them because some are from the Old Testament.

Besides, you have failed to even attempt to explain away the other passages of Scripture that show that people continue to be conscious after death.

We have responded to EVERY text brought to our attention that I am aware of. If we missed one, give it to us and we will be happy to comply. Now...where are your answers? You see ,the truth is you are hiding behind all this to avoid the facts. The facts are that the question is not nearly as plain as you like to believe.

Tall73's "explanation" of Luke 16 was incredible. It has Jesus preaching myth when He could have just as easily told a story in line with "soul sleep," if soul sleep were true (which it is not).

In fact, Jesus' story, is true in most details. There will be a time of burning and suffering, and there will be no more appeal because this life is the time to decide. So He is not presenting error. But He is presenting it through familiar means, stories and concepts that they were aware of.

Why did Paul use Greek poets to make his point?

My prediction for this thread is that the few SDAs who frequent GT will camp out here, as they do on Saturday sabbath threads, hoping to wear down the opposition by sheer numbers of posts, and certainly not via quality of argument or the weight of truth.

And my prediction is that you will duck any texts you don't like, pretend they don't exist, so that you can avoid showing that you have no answers.

My prediction is that you will continue to poison the well and refer to us Advdentists in disparaging ways, and not back up your points.

What have YOU presented to answer our texts? Not one thing.

We have presented scripture, made attempts to show how ALL of the texts fit together, and done our best to be honest with it, admitting difficulties when they are there.

Have you?

or have you denied the OT to secure your position, and brushed texts under the rug you don't want to deal with?

Answer our texts. Then we will see more straw grasping, no doubt.

In the end, those who hold the historic orthodox Christian doctrine, i.e., that people remain conscious after death, will become tired and bored and leave the field to the SDAs, who will then engage in the usual round of mutual admiration posts, just like on those Saturday sabbath threads.

Indeed, and after REPEATED attemtps to get you to back up your statement that the context in sozomen was different than what we claimed, you would not engage in the details. Nor would you look at any evidence that said that they kept both. You posted the same quotes again and again, blinding your eyes to anything else. And you seem to do the same here.

So if the field is left it is left by YOU, who will not give evidence, but only insults.

I hope for something better. This is not a game to me, or a thread to be taken lightly, or a war to be won. This is a serious Bible topic with implications that matter to all of us. And I cannot be content to just look at part of the evidence and close my eyes to the rest. So if it looks like we are grasping at straws, then come down from your lofty positio and explain it. Make it plain from the wisdom of the historic church. And if you can't, then leave the field to those who want to understand what God is trying to say.

If your church has nothing in the way of explanation, then don't begrudge us ours.

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Here are some for you to explain Maximus. Please do us the favor of trying to address all the evidence Scripture has to offer.

Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Moreover, please explain how Jesus' spirit, if it is a separate entity, can go to

a. God
b. Hell
c. Paradise

all at the same time.

Also state how it works, since He says His spirit goes to God, but He also says that He did not ascend yet to the Father?

Explain why paradise, in the other bible texts , is not referring to somewhere in the ground ,but in the presence of God.

Furthermore, please clarify...is our soul immortal?

When you have answered these ,we have more.

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus said:
There is no evidence that Christ suffered and died for fallen angels or that the Gospel is to be preached to fallen angels.

Now it is you that is adding to the text. It does not say that He preached the gospel to them. It simply says He preached.
Nor does it say whether they are man or angel. Nor does it say the timing of the preaching, but only that He did it through the Spirit.

In Matthew 5, Jesus speaks of settling things with one's adversary lest that one be cast into prison. He said one would not emerge from prison until he paid the last farthing.

When Jesus spoke of the unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit, He said it would not be forgiven men either in this life or the one to come. The implication is that there are some sins which can and will be forgiven in the life to come, where one can "pay the last farthing" and emerge from prison.

Or it just means they will pay or die in prison.

You are transposing two totally separate texts. You are also saying that a statement that says something WON"T be forgiven in the next life, means something WILL. Is that not twisting?

Anyway, I do not have to demonstrate that I know every detail concerning the "spirits in prison" in order to refute your arguments.

No, but you do have to explain how the texts that I posted make sense with your view, just as we are trying to do with your texts. If you wish to correct heretics, you must first show them their error. If you can't, then one doubts whether your orthodoxy is of much value.

All I have to show is that they were conscious after death.

And since Peter speaks of angels in prison, you have not even done that.

That refutes "soul sleep," and that much is obvious.

What is obvious is you only explain those texts which match your view. We want ALL of them explained.

We are told they were disobedient during the time of Noah and that Christ preached to them.

For whom did Christ live as the "last Adam" (Rom. 5; 1 Cor. 15) and suffer and die?

To whom is the Gospel preached?

The word is not euangelizomai, nor is any mention made of the gospel.

Who were disobedient during the days of Noah?

The answer to all of those last three questions is mankind.

the angels have always been disobedient, and some see reference to them in the sons of God taking the women of men...in the time of Noah.

But again, please explain the texts that DISAGREE with you, rather than the ones that just agree. Anyone can do that. We could just keep posting the ones that agree with us and pretend the others don't exist. Now do the hard work.

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

Maximus, you are missing the whole point. To truly convince us you must explain the texts that support OUR side, not the ones that support yours. We already know they are troublesome for our view.

What we are looking for is for ALL of the texts of Scripture to make sense in the end. You have not even tried.

I assure you that if you show me a way to make sense of all the texts, I will follow it. This is not just a discussion in a forum for me. My whole life, my job, is to teach people the Scriptures. I just discussed with my wife today again that if I am convinced it is wrong, i will leave. There are things that bother me about my current belief. But they don't outweigh the things that bother me about the other side. So what can I do? If I am wrong show me. We want the text to make sense. But you are not doing that so far.

tall73 · Feb 8, 2006

er, double.

Maximus · Feb 8, 2006

tall73 said:
No, the Lord obtained his body and restored him to life. Do you not notice that it was his body that was contended for?

Where does the Scripture say Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven in bodily form?

Did he receive a glorified body before even Jesus Himself had been resurrected?

Are you therefore a believer in the Catholic doctrine of the application of prevenient grace?

Tall73 said:
a. The truth of suffering and torment is all there. WE do not deny that.
b. you distort the story saying that it was his soul in hell. Where does it say that it was just his soul or spirit?

I did not say the rich man of Luke 16 was in hell. The KJV from which I quoted renders it that way.

What is significant, however, for the sake of this thread, is that the rich man was conscious.

He was not asleep.

Neither was Lazarus or Abraham.

Tall73 said:
c. You make no attempt to explain why we are told here that people go DOWN and yet Jesus says His spirit would go to the father...up. How many places is He at once?

Moving downward does not necessarily signify sleep.

When we were kids, my brother had the bunk above me. He went up to go to sleep.

Jesus descended into Hades/Sheol to deliver the souls there.

The idea of down in this case could signify going to someplace worse. Conversely, the idea of ascent - going up - could signify movement to someplace better.

We know only three dimensions, so things are described for us in terms we understand.

Tall73 said:
actually He already did in the story of the steward.

Having done so, our Lord then engaged in what you imagine to be a flight of Hellenistically inspired fancy in the case of the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?

Who could believe such an explanation except someone already committed beyond reclamation to the doctrine of "soul sleep?"

According to you, Jesus knew the "truth" - that the souls of men are unconscious after death - yet He told a story (Lazarus and the rich man) that is false in all its essentials.

Incredible.

Tall73 said:
Acutally it says in Chronicles that he consulted a medium with a familiar spirit. That sounds like a demon to me.

She had a familiar spirit. The Scripture nowhere says that spirit impersonated Samuel.

Tall73 said:
Moroever, Samuel, nor God would speak to him in life. Now he can, through a witch no less, force Samuel to speak?

The Scripture does not tell us how.

It does tell us who, however: Samuel.

And Samuel was dead, yet conscious.

He was not asleep.

Tall73 said:
of course not. Why not? Because this was after Alexander's Hellenistic inflluence. You also had priests playing naked in the olympic games and ignoring their duties. Is that biblical? Or cultural?You are actually pointing out the ver thing I said. They were familiar with the view.[/

Are you saying that Judas Maccabeus made up his vision of Onias and Jeremiah because he had been influenced by the Greeks?

Isn't that rather similar to your shuffle on Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?

Judas Maccabeus, who was fighting the Greeks in the name of God and the true faith, was practicing Hellenistic syncretism?

That is not a satisfactory explanation. It sounds like what it is: a dodge in defense of "soul sleep" presuppositions.

Tall73 said:
And if it is a mistake for us to rule out the deuterocanon, why do you refuse plain statements from the OT which you claim to accept?

I do not believe those verses teach what you imagine they teach, but I do not want to give an interpretation of them until I have had a look at what the Fathers said about them.

My own preliminary impression is that they were made by writers who were speaking either figuratively of spiritual death, or who did not yet know that the dead are conscious after death.

There were many things the people of the Old Testament did not yet know, but I cannot definitively say that is the reason for the verses on death of which SDAs are so fond.

They certainly cannot be used to contradict the plainer verses of Scripture - particularly New Testament Scripture, which always trumps and enlightens the OT, not the other way around - which indicate that people remain conscious after death.

tall73 · Feb 9, 2006

Maximus said:
Where does the Scripture say Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven in bodily form?

we see a reference to Michael disputing for the BODY of Moses in Jude.

Did he receive a glorified body before even Jesus Himself had been resurrected?

That seems to be the implication. there is no statement in the transfiguration narratives that he was anything other than physical. This coupled with the reference to his body being reclaimed seems to suggest his physical nature.

As to whether it is a a glorified body, it doesn't say.

Obviously Jesus was not the first chronologically raised from the dead in any case.

Are you therefore a believer in the Catholic doctrine of the application of prevenient grace?

As I understand it that would be something slightly different. This is simply the recognition that Jesus' sacrifice granted grace to the people BEFORE His death as well as after.

I did not say the rich man of Luke 16 was in hell. The KJV from which I quoted renders it that way.

yes, but it is not the same word as is used for the usual place of fire.

What is significant, however, for the sake of this thread, is that the rich man was conscious.

He was not asleep.

Neither was Lazarus or Abraham.

yes, we concede that point. The way we explain it, as you have seen, is to conclude it is a parable. This is not trying to be purposely deceptive, it is simply trying to make sense of all the texsts, many of which indicate sleep or an uncounscious state.

Jesus uses the word for the Greek concept of the underworld, and the concept He describes in the story is similar in many ways to that underworld. So we simply point that out.

Moving downward does not necessarily signify sleep.

When we were kids, my brother had the bunk above me. He went up to go to sleep.

Jesus descended into Hades/Sheol to deliver the souls there.

yes,agreed, down is not necessarily sleep. But that is not exactly my point here. My point is that He said "into thy hands I commit my spirit". Now God was not down. So if the Spirit was a separate thing, did it go up or down?

Having done so, our Lord then engaged in what you imagine to be a flight of Hellenistically inspired fancy in the case of the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?

Who could believe such an explanation except someone already committed beyond reclamation to the doctrine of "soul sleep?"

According to you, Jesus knew the "truth" - that the souls of men are unconscious after death - yet He told a story (Lazarus and the rich man) that is false in all its essentials.

Since what is described differs in details from Jesus' other statements, then it is not simply trying to fit it with a doctrine, but with His other statements.

Reference to an existing common idea in a story is not in fact incredible.

First of all Jesus always pictures them going into judgement AFTER the second coming. This is the case both in His other parables, and in His plain speech. So when you have one story, which follows a well known convention, and differs with the other details give by Jesus himself, what do you do with it?

She had a familiar spirit. The Scripture nowhere says that spirit impersonated Samuel.

Chronicles says that he spoke to a familiar spirit. The only spirit we see in that story was Samuel. And since

a. Samuel had already said he wouldn't talk to Saul
b. witchcraft was associated with idolatry and demons anbd strongly forbidden

It seems dangerous to believe that this is Samuel. God never endorses those who try to speak with the dead. And He didn't here. So why would He allow Samuel to be disturbed?

The Scripture does not tell us how.

It does tell us who, however: Samuel.

And Samuel was dead, yet conscious.

He was not asleep.

what this does not address was wether, even if it was Samuel, whether he was conscious before this incident. It says he was disturbed and came up. If it was Samuel, how do you know he was not sleeping?

Are you saying that Judas Maccabeus made up his vision of Onias and Jeremiah because he had been influenced by the Greeks?

Isn't that rather similar to your shuffle on Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?

I don't have the first clue what Judas maccabeus made up. But I do know, as you would certainly agree, that there are many false prophets in the world. I think you believe EGW to be one don't you, though others consider her quite sincere?

Judas Maccabeus, who was fighting the Greeks in the name of God and the true faith, was practicing Hellenistic syncretism?

a. no one said the vision was just a notion of his. i said that the later Greeks were familiar with it.

b. I have no idea why he had the dream. Could have been God, it could have been Satan, it could have been bad food., or he could have lied to rally the troops. It is up to you to show that it is a valid dream. What we both agree on is that it shows this concept at an early time. Therefore it is not surprising that it was familar to Jesus' audience.

I do not believe those verses teach what you imagine they teach, but I do not want to give an interpretation of them until I have had a look at what the Fathers said about them.

That informatio would be quite welcome.

My own preliminary impression is that they were made by writers who were speaking either figuratively of spiritual death, or who did not yet know that the dead are conscious after death.

The former seems to be grasping just as you say we do. The latter could be a possibility. But it would need to then be accounted for by some type of progressive revelation since all Scripture is inspired.

There were many things the people of the Old Testament did not yet know, but I cannot definitively say that is the reason for the verses on death of which SDAs are so fond.

They certainly cannot be used to contradict the plainer verses of Scripture - particularly New Testament Scripture, which always trumps and enlightens the OT, not the other way around - which indicate that people remain conscious after death.

Not knowing is not the same as being inspired, and yet writing the WRONG or opposite thing.

fwGod · Feb 9, 2006

tall73 said:
It says that David did not ascend. Peter stresses that he was still there, in his tomb, to that day, so the promise could not be about David.

i already answered this on the previous post and i'm not going to repeat myself here..

you can still read it how you want but i do not consider that you would be reading it correctly.

Then explain the widow's son, Lazarus, or Jairus' daughter, etc. Jesus was clearly not the first chronilogically from the dead.

those you mention, Jesus resurrected to live out their natural lives.

which is very different than those long dead being raised up to ascend with Christ into heaven.

The problem is that this was before Jesus resurrection. It was at his CRUCIFIXION.

due to the forum not including previous postings.. i dont quite know what your responding to here.

on the assumption that you are responding to the matt text of the dead saints having arisen and walk around town.. the words are very clear that it happened at Jesus resurrection. not the crucifixion.

But as I mentioned earlier these were not the first either.

And there is no statement that David was in there, but if he was then it was with a body too. So there goes the floating soul notion.

"floating soul notion"? your words, not mine.

My purpose is to show that without the resurrection they were hopeless. Paul did not mention anything about bodiless spirits ,but said that without the resurrection they are of all men most to be pitied.

exactly my point. i said that it was a most goulish thing for the soul in supposed sleep to remain with the body when the person is dead.

Most people who subscribe to the notion of a bodiless soul after death believe that the real essence of the person is the soul, just trapped in a body.

So if Jesus says that the little girl is sleeping, he is talking about the essence too. Everything.

your making Jesus not be in agreement with other scriptures.. like for instance his own parable in luke16

It makes no sense for someone to be described as asleep but then have it said that it is just the body that is asleep. Why didn't it say just the body?

it is saying just the body.
you are the one who is thinking that it means soul sleep.

here then is reference of the ot saints.

like abraham at death..
gen.25:8 "gave up the ghost"

also ishmael, isaac, Jesus

and was..
gen.25:8 "gathered to his people."

acts - Ananias "gave up the ghost"
acts12 Herod

luke16:22 "the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom"

carried by angels.. how can this be if as you say, the soul stays in the body?

And why does the OT say that they go down to silence?
The person is gone until Jesus comes back. They go down to silence. Their thoughts perish.

looks like that agrees with what Jesus said in luke16 of the rich man in the lower part of "abraham's bosom"..
his thoughts were to be comforted but all he got was torment. so i see that means that "their thoughts _of comfort_ perish".

they go down to silence because their relief goes unheard. or ungranted.

While we are on emotional arguments, how great is it for them to stick around and see their spouse remarry, or their kid become a drunk?

all emotions aside..

are you talking about dead people sticking around to see that?
either i have not sufficiently stated what i believe or you ignore it and come up with what you think i believe.

but i believe the scripture that says, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

If you have a problem with this then you have a problem with the resurrection in general. You don't think God can make a new glorious body for them?

the only thing i "have a problem with" is soul sleep. the ressurrection and having a glorious body is scriptural so i believe in those.

What about it? God is going to give us all a new body anyway, is he not?

in much the same way as Jesus got a new body when He arose. yes.

You are not grasping the real concept here. They cease to be until the resurrection.

what is this? first you are talking about soul sleep where the soul stays in the body at death.. now you say that they cease to be altogether?

what scripture can you take and distort to make it agree with you?

You need to review what a soul is. Genesis says :
Gen 2:7 And the LORD3068 God430 formed3335 (853) man120 of the dust6083 of4480 the ground,127 and breathed5301 into his nostrils639 the breath5397 of life;2416 and man120 became1961 a living2416 soul.5315 KJV

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. ESV

God formed the man from the dust and then breathed into him the breath of life and he BECAME a living soul. Man does not have a soul, he IS a soul. A soul is just a living being.

Other times the word is used to refer to the innermost being, but not as a separate part of the body.

The soul can die:

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

well here's one scripture that has been misunderstood. the word 'die' here does not mean cease to be.

and its unfortunate because if anything that God has created that could cease to be, it oughta be the devil. but no. not even he gets to cease to be. he's got to be in the neverending fiery pits for eternity.

but in the nt paul says what soul death is.. as does the ezek. text..
paul said that we were (while physically alive) dead in sin. but made alive through Christ.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul, the union of the dust and the breath of life, simply ceases to be until God brings them back.

somehow you read the words but come up with something entirely different than what it says..

matt10 "do not fear those who can kill the body but not kill the soul"

killing the body. it ceases to function. however..
the soul cannot cease to function. it cannot cease to be.

i ask you.. what is eternity then if the soul can for a time 'cease to be'?

And when the house is burned down, it is gone completely until you build it back new.

but in the meantime.. where did 'i' go? certainly i am not somewhere inside while it burned.
because in the previous post i said that 'i' had left the house.

neither did i in anyway say that i ceased to be. like i said.. maybe i just wasnt more clear.

but then the Bible is clear and you've misunderstood it.. so i dont know.. i think that you are confused.. your soul sleep arguement is that the soul

1. stays with the body
2. ceases to be

but i have throughout maintained (at least by disagreeing with you if not by giving scripture to state what i believe) that at death 'i' dont stay with the body.. nor cease to be.. but rather go to heaven with the Lord.

eph.3:14 "every family in heaven"
phil.1:23 "to depart and be with Christ"
2cor.5:8 "absent from the body, present with the Lord"
heb.12:22-24 "but ye are come unto the heavenly jerusalem.. to God.. to the spirits of just men made perfect.. and to Jesus".

j

ThreeAM · Feb 9, 2006

fwGod said:
......

but then the Bible is clear and you've misunderstood it.. so i dont know.. i think that you are confused.. your soul sleep arguement is that the soul

1. stays with the body
2. ceases to be

but i have throughout maintained (at least by disagreeing with you if not by giving scripture to state what i believe) that at death 'i' dont stay with the body.. nor cease to be.. but rather go to heaven with the Lord.

eph.3:14 "every family in heaven"
phil.1:23 "to depart and be with Christ"
cor.5:8 "absent from the body, present with the Lord"
heb.12:22-24 "but ye are come unto the heavenly jerusalem.. to God.. to the spirits of just men made perfect.. and to Jesus".

You believe your soul never dies? Then you believe you are immortal. If the "thinking" part of you never dies then you are immortal. Pieces of our bodies can be cut off and be thrown away and we don't die. It is only when our thoughts perish and our heart stops that we cease to live. People have even lived with no natural heart. So when we cease to have "thought" and our bodily functions stop do we die. If you keep the ability to "think" then the real you is still alive. We are not now immortal only God hadth immortality we will recieve immortality at the LAST TRUMP.

1 Cor 15:52-53In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Tim 16:15-16Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: If Eve's soul never died the devil did not lie.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

eoe · Feb 9, 2006

Anyone interested in what the Early Church Fathers said?

200AD Tertullian I must here also remark, that if souls undergo a transformation, they will actually not be able to accomplish and experience the destinies which they shall deserve; and the aim and purpose of judicial recompense will be brought to nought, as there will be wanting the sense and consciousness of merit and retribution. And there must be this want of consciousness, if souls lose their condition; and there must ensue this loss, if they do not continue in one stay. But even if they should have permanency enough to remain unchanged until the judgment,a point which Mercurius ¦gyptius recognised, when he said that the soul, after its separation from the body, was not dissipated back into the soul of the universe, but retained permanently its distinct individuality, "in order that it might render," to use his own words, "an account to the Father of those things which it has done in the body; " chapter 33

200AD Tertullian Chapter LI.Death Entirely Separates the Soul from the Body. But the operation of death is plain and obvious: it is the separation of body and soul. Some, however, in reference to the souls immortality, on which they have so feeble a hold through not being taught of God, maintain it with such beggarly arguments, that they would fain have it supposed that certain souls cleave to the body even after death.

200AD Tertullian Chapter LII.All Kinds of Death a Violence to Nature, Arising from Sin.Sin an Intrusion Upon Nature as God Created It. Such, then, is the work of deaththe separation of the soul from the body. Putting out of the question fates and fortuitous circumstances, it has been, according to mens views, distinguished in a twofold formthe ordinary and the extraordinary.

200AD Tertullian, Chapter LVI.Refutation of the Homeric View of the Souls Detention from Hades Owing to the Bodys Being Unburied. That Souls Prematurely Separated from the Body Had to Wait for Admission into Hades Also Refuted. There arises the question, whether this takes place immediately after the souls departure from the body; whether some souls are detained for special reasons in the meantime here on earth; and whether it is permitted them of their own accord, or by the intervention of authority, to be removed from Hades at some subsequent time? Even such opinions as these are not by any means lacking persons to advance them with confidence. ... For surely the soul which had no willingness to die might well prefer as tardy a removal to Hades as possible. It will love the undutiful heir, by whose means it still enjoys the light. If, however, it is certain that injury accrues to the soul from a tardy interment of the bodyand the gist of the injury lies in the neglect of the burialit is yet in the highest degree unfair, that should receive all the injury to which the faulty delay could not possibly be imputed, for of course all the fault rests on the nearest relations of the dead. They also say that those souls which are taken away by a premature death wander about hither and thither until they have completed the residue of the years which they would have lived through, had it not been for their untimely fate.

200AD Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh. For some, when they have alighted on a very usual form of prophetic statement, generally expressed in figure and allegory, though not always, distort into some imaginary sense even the most clearly described doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, alleging that even death itself must be understood in a spiritual sense. They say that which is commonly supposed to be death is not really so,namely, the separation of body and soul: it is rather the ignorance of God, by reason of which man is dead to God, and is not less buried in error than he would be in the grave. chapter 19

307AD Lactantius And the force of this is not that it altogether annihilates the souls of the unrighteous, but subjects them to everlasting punishment. We term that punishment the second death, which is itself also perpetual, as also is immortality. We thus define the first death: Death is the dissolution of the nature of living beings; or thus: Death is the separation of body and soul. But we thus define the second death: Death is the suffering of eternal pain; or thus: Death is the condemnation of souls for their deserts to eternal punishments. This does not extend to the dumb cattle, whose spirits, not being composed of God, but of the common air, are dissolved by death. Book II. Of the Origin of Error.

307AD Lactantius But, indeed, hereafter man must be both wise and happy without any evil; but this cannot take place as long as the soul is clothed with the abode of the body. But when a separation shall have been made between the body and the soul, then evil will be disunited from good; and as the body perishes and the soul remains, so evil will perish and good be permanent. Then man, having received the garment of immortality, will be wise and free from evil, as God is. chapter 5 Book VII. Of a Happy Life.

307AD Lactantius For the soul even in opposition to the body desires the worship of God, which consists in abstinence from desires and lusts, in the enduring of pain, in the contempt of death. From which it is credible that the soul does not perish, but is separated from the body, because the body can do nothing without the soul, but the soul can do many and great things without the body. Chapter XI.Of the Last Times, and of the Soul and Body.

307AD Lactantius Therefore, although they are joined and connected together from birth, and the one which is formed of earthly material is, as it were, the vessel of the other, which is drawn out from heavenly fineness, when any violence has separated the two, which separation is called death, then each returns into its own nature; that which was of earth is resolved into earth; that which is of heavenly breath remains fixed, and flourishes always, since the divine spirit is everlasting. Chapter XII.Of the Soul and the Body, and of Their Union and Separation and Return.

250 AD Ignatius The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. (book 2 ch 34)

250 AD Ignatius And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, "He that believeth in Me is not condemned," that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, "He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God; "that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. "For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God." (book 5 ch 27)

The Twelve Patriarchs: For fornication is the destruction of the soul, separating it from God, and bringing it near to idols, because it deceiveth the mind and understanding, and bringeth down young men into hell before their time. The Twelve Patriarchs, I.The Testament of Reuben Concerning Thoughts

The Clementine Homilies "For there is every necessity, that he who says that God is by His nature righteous, should believe also that the souls of men are immortal: for where would be His justice, when some, having lived piously, have been evil-treated, and sometimes violently cut off, while others who have been wholly impious, and have indulged in luxurious living, have died the common death of men? Since therefore, without all contradiction, God who is good is also just, He shall not otherwise be known to be just, unless the soul after its separation from the body be immortal, so that the wicked man, being in hell, as having here received his good things, may there be punished for his sins; and the good man, who has been punished here for his sins, may then, as in the bosom of the righteous, be constituted an heir of good things. Since therefore God is righteous, it is fully evident to us that there is a judgment, and that souls are immortal. Homily II., Chapter XIII.Future Rewards and Punishments.

The Clementine Homilies "I am anxious that you should become of the same mind as your wife and children, in order that here you may live along with them, and in the other world, after the separation of the soul from the body, you will continue to be with them free from sorrow. Homily XV.

The Clementine Homilies: And what is death but the separation of soul from body? There is therefore no pain when there is harmony. For death does not even at all belong to those things which substantially exist: for death is nothing, as I said, but the separation of soul from body; and when this takes place, the body, which is by nature incapable of sensation, is dissolved; but the soul, being capable of sensation, remains in life and exists substantially. Homily XIX., Chapter XX.Pain and Death the Result of Sin.

eoe · Feb 9, 2006

Tall - I answered this in TAW but given the same question here I figured that I should respond here too...

Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Click to expand...

For this one we have to back up a few verses. Let's look at the whole psalm.

(Psalms 115:1) Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

Amin! Doxa si, Kyrie, Doxa Si!

(Psalms 115:2) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

Question.

(Psalms 115:3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Answer.

(Psalms 115:4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

(Psalms 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

(Psalms 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

(Psalms 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Here are the idols. They do not speak hear etc.

(Psalms 115:8) They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

Critical verse.

(Psalms 115:9) O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:10) O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:11) Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:12) The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron.

(Psalms 115:13) He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

(Psalms 115:14) The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.

(Psalms 115:15) Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.

(Psalms 115:16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Click to expand...

Speaking to Israel here. Telling Israel to praise God.

(Psalms 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Who was it in this psalm that did not hear or speak? Who was like unto them? Those who trust in the Idols.

(Psalms 115:18) But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Back to Israel. If they can not praise while dead then how will they do it evermore?
You see - if we look at the whole psalm we see that it is those that are like unto the idols - those that worship the idols that are spiritually dead. The very next verse after the one you list contradicts soul sleep saying:

But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No problem here. This is the final Judgement and resurrection. Some will be resurrected into communion with God - others will be in a far worse condition.

Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Click to expand...

In my Orthodox Study Bible Psa 146:4 has a note to look at Ecc 12:7

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Click to expand...

You might also consider the likeness of this to the parable of the foolish virgins. When we die we can no longer trade etc. At that point our plans perish.
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