seriously distressed...does orthodoxy have the answers?

Since you are a pastor, and want some deep answers, here is a book for you to consider:

Orthodox Dogmatic Theology
by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky
Third Edition
St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood
2005

I ordered it through St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood and the price was right and reasonable.

Part of the explanation is that those are part of the Judaic context of the Old Testament - the Jews did not realize until rather close to the time of Christ that the love of God entailed a resurrection of the dead. Indeed, even at the time of Christ, there were large swaths of Jews which did not believe in it.

Anyways: you are quite right, according to the Orthodox, you can't divide soul from body. Most moderns are influenced by Descartes in their view of the soul and the body, and Descartes was hardly a theist, much less a good theologian. Others hearken to Gnostic depictions which were condemned milennia ago. Don't worry, you're quite right about that.

As for the immortality of the soul: again, we agree, only God is immortal by nature. God is the creator and the sustainer of all things, if God did not keep our souls in existence through His great love, they would disappear and be no more. It is only in the sense that God promises to share His immortality with us that we will be immortal. Were it not for God's gift of life, as He alone is immortal and the giver of life, we would die.

That's all I have time for at the moment, but I hope I have been helpful. Above all: Don't Panic.

Welcome to TAW tall.

It is late and I am not up to (at least at this time while I finish up some work) answering your thoughtful questions. I would like to point out that if anyone has called you a heretic, that is improper. You may be conflating believing in certain heresies with being a heretic, they are not they same. Also, IANAM but I think you will find that respectful follow up questions to clear up any true misunderstandings of our answers will be welcomed.

I look forward to the discussion.

tall73 said:

I must confess, I am quite upset over a number of things right now. I hope this does not come across as adversarial. That is not my intent. But I do have some real questions, and I keep hearing that the orthodox have the answers...they just never seem to actually get around to answering in GT where I frequent.

a. I am not completely content with all my beliefs, that they are in all ways consistent with the Bible.

b. Every time I try to discuss these things I get told I am a heretic, often by those from the Orthodox church. However, they don't resolve the real theological issues for me either.

While some think this is all just a joke here, and that we all are here to prove our position right, I assure you, it is not the case. This is my life. I work as a pastor and study with people all the time. It is not small thing for me to think that I might be telling them error.

I would love a better way to explain some things, but I don't see it.

Particularly right now I am wrestling with the Bible's view of death. There are a number of texts that seem to suggest

a. the dead rest until the resurrection
b. there is no false dualism between soul and body
c. our souls are not immortal entities.

Yet, when I present this evidence, and try to answer the texts that suggest another way, I am told I am a heretic. But none explain the texts.
Here are some of the texts I struggle with. Please give any insights that the orthodox church has to offer.



Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.


Moreover, please explain how Jesus' spirit, if it is a separate entity, can go to

a. God
b. Hell
c. Paradise

all at the same time.

Also state how it works, since He says His spirit goes to God, but He also says that He did not ascend yet to the Father?


Explain why paradise, in the other bible texts , is not referring to somewhere in the ground ,but in the presence of God.

Furthermore, please clarify...is our soul immortal? And if so why does the Bible say that God alone is immortal, that we must put ON immortality etc.

There are others besides, but I don't want to overwhelm you. I am not trying to be a pain, but I want to take ALL of the Bible evidence, not just some of it. I was discussing with my wife today that there are some things that trouble me greatly, and that if I could resolve them a different way I would in fact go to a different church.

So if i am missing something, please explain what it is.

I will not respond to your statements, other than with thanks, etc. since this is not a debate area. But then, if I am not satisfied, I won't believe it either. So be as thorough as you can.

And please do not cite all the ones that favor your position. I have looked them over and tried to explain them many times. I acknowledge that there are texts that seem to say the opposite of my view. Some I can explain. Some I don't know if I can. But in both cases I am familiar with them. What I need is an explanation that makes sense of the texts that seem to say we are dead, and know nothing.

And if there are some good answers i might post more texts for explanation.

God bless

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Welcome, sorry to hear you have been deemed a heretic and not told a reason why, or even called one. Even in the EOC alot of the members have trouble discerning verses. We leave it up to the Church and not our individual self to interpret it, so many don't even know what the Church says, or what to say..I will try to help give you a view of what I believe the EOC says..before I give them, I must tell you I am not a Priest. Many people would say that only a Priest can give definitive answers, but this is not the case. This applies more to personal issues, not in Scripture. So take them as you like, read a book and consult a Priest as well....I must admit as well, the OT is not my thing, but I have been studying them more lately. I also seem to have a "gift" of reading into what something means...

Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

This quote is reffering to "the dead" in spirit. People who do not acknowledge the Lord, are considered dead. Also those who never acknowledged the Lord, even until death, are considered dead as opposed to to those who worship and praise Him are alive, even after death. Those who are "dead to the Lord" do not praise Him.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This one is a prophecy that speaks of the second coming and the ressurection of all man. They are dead so they "sleep in the dust of the earth". When Jesus returns and they rise, some will be found worthy of Heaven, and some will be damned to hell. At this time our soul will reunite with our bodies, and henceforth be incorpeal beings.


Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.

Here he is just stating that he will always prasie the Lord as long as he lives and has being. From above, we see that we will always have a being, so that means he will praise the Lord for all eternity.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

This means basically do not put your stock into what a man says, but into God. Man cannot grant salvation, only God can. Of course this only pertains to men that say things contrary to God.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Here he is speaking of the "princes" above. Probably just conferming what he said above about not putting trust in them. This one is tricky. By "plans perish" it could mean once they die all they had or did is forgotten affirming his statement. I am not too sure about this one.

Moreover, please explain how Jesus' spirit, if it is a separate entity, can go to

a. God
b. Hell
c. Paradise

I really don't understand this question but, He is God and can do what He pleases. He is everyewhere. After all He was in heaven and on earth at the same time.

Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells by Matthew Gallatin might help you some. He was raised SDA and recounts his journey as he explains the differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

Welcome to TAW!

Be very careful in proof-texting and/or over-literal readings of the Bible. Remember, that when the Bible verses you are reading were written, they were likely intended to answer questions other than the ones you are trying to answer. Remember, there are some 20,000 Protestant denominations, each with different beliefs, and all claim on some level to be "Biblical".

One of the beauties of the Orthodox Faith is that, rather than relying on our conflicting understandings of the Bible as a guide to faith, we rely on Tradition to illuminate what the Bible says.

In other words, Holy Tradition developed out of the context in which the Bible was written. Tradition shows us how the Church understood a particular passage, beginning from the time the passage in question was written.

Our Holy Traditions, the Holy Sacraments, the hierarchy of the Church (Bishops, Priests, and Deacons), the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Icons, our sacred hymnology and psalms, the Holy Vestments, incense, candles, and the Holy Bible are all part of God's Revelation to mankind.

Thus the Bible and Holy Tradition do not stand in opposition as many Protestants think. In fact, Holy Tradition and the Church gave us the Holy Bible as it certainly didn't fall down from heaven in a golden box.

I plan to come back to this thread and to give thoughtful answers to your questions. I have some ideas but it is 4 in the morning and I know I will not likely give you the best response without some sleep.

But I wanted to tell you that I am so incredibly sorry that you were insulted and called a heretic. That is not right. If it happens again, please click on the report button.

I used to be Pentecostal (Holiness, Independent) .. The Church is kind of well known "Christ Church" in Brentwood Tennesee (Their Choir tours both in Europe and in American and they are used for some Contemporary Christian Musician's in video's and performances. They have two or three released CD's.)

I was Pentecostal for about 10 years and had joined the church participating very actively. I left Nashville and ended up in a Nazarene Church before finding Eastern Orthodoxy.

Within the doctrines of the Orthodox Church I have grown to learn discover a level of understanding of the bible that I have never had before.

Again, I will come back and answer your questions. Feel free to keep asking more in the meantime. All we ask is that you are respectful and that you talk about what you don't understand about our beliefs rather than trying to teach us the error of our beliefs in your opinion.

IN GT I think that all participants get defensive and start to read negative motives behind even the most innocent of posts. I hope to be a part of the cleaning up of that area, but it is a very long process and might be a useless effort on my part.

I am not sure if you are still reading, Tall, but here goes:

Tradition is necessary in order to make sense of a text. Not only the Bible, but almost any text will do. Even a "Stop" sign.

I will illustrate with a joke.

Stop Sign Hermeneutics

Suppose you're traveling to work and you see a "Stop" sign. What do you do? That depends on how you exegete the stop sign.

1. A post modernist deconstructs the sign (knocks it over with his car), ending forever the tyranny of the north-south traffic over the east-west traffic.

2. Similarly, a Marxist refuses to stop because he sees the stop sign as an instrument of class conflict. He concludes that the bourgeois use the north-south road and obstruct the progress of the workers in the east-west road.

3. A fundamentalist, taking the text very literally, stops at the stop sign and waits for it to tell him to go.

4. A highly educated Catholic rolls through the intersection because he believes he cannot understand the stop sign apart from its interpretative community and tradition. In the absence of an interpretative community, he passes through in peace.

5. An average Christian doesn't bother to read the sign but he'll stop the car if the car in front of him does.

6. An educated evangelical preacher might look up 'STOP' in his lexicon of English and discover that it can mean:
(a) something which prevents motion, such as a plug for a drain;
(b) a location where a train or bus lets off passengers.

The main point of his sermon the following Sunday on this text is: when you see a stop sign, it is a place where the traffic is naturally clogged, so it is a good place to let off passengers from your car.

7. An Orthodox Jew does one of two things
(a) take another route to work that doesn't have a stop sign so that he doesn't run the risk of disobeying the Law; or
(b) stop at the sign, say 'Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast given us thy commandment to stop,' wait three seconds according to his watch, and then proceed.

Incidentally, the Talmud has the following comments on this passage:

Rabbi Meir says: 'He who does not stop shall not live long.'
R. Hillel says: 'Cursed is he who does not count to three before proceeding.'
R. Simon ben Yudah says: 'Why three? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, gave us the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.'
R. ben Isaac says: 'Because of the three patriarchs.'
R.Yehuda says: 'Why bless the Lord at a stop sign? Because it says, "Be still and know that I am God."'

8. A scholar from the Jesus Seminar concludes that the passage 'STOP' undoubtedly was never uttered by Jesus himself because being the progressive Jew that he was, he would never have wanted to stifle people's progress. Therefore 'STOP' must be a textual insertion belonging entirely to stage III of the gospel tradition, when the church was first confronted by traffic in its parking lot.

9. An Old Testament scholar points out that there are a number of stylistic differences between the first and second half of the expression 'STOP'. For example, 'ST' contains no enclosed areas and five line endings, whereas 'OP' contains two enclosed areas and only one line termination. He concludes that the author for the second part is different from the author of the first part and probably lived hundreds of years later. Later scholars determine that the second half is itself actually written by two separate authors because of similar stylistic differences between the 'O' and the 'P'.

10. Because of the difficulties in interpretation, another OT scholar amends the text, changing the 'T' to 'H'. 'SHOP' is much easier to understand in context than 'STOP' because of the multiplicity of stores in the area. The textual corruption probably occurred because 'SHOP' is so similar to 'STOP' on the sign several streets back, that it is a natural mistake for a scribe to make.

Thus the sign should be interpreted to announce the existence of a shopping area. If this is true, it could indicate that both meanings are valid, thus making the thrust of the message 'STOP (AND) SHOP'.

11. A 'prophetic' preacher notices that the square root of the sum of the numeric representations of the letters S-T-O-P (sigma-tau-omicron-pi, in the Greek alphabet), multiplied by 40 (the number of testing), and divided by four (the number of the world: north, south, east, and west) equals 666.

Therefore,he concludes that stop signs are the dreaded 'mark of the beast', a harbinger of divine judgment upon the world, and must be avoided at all costs.

-- The Rev. Charles A. Collins, Jr., S.B.R., M.Div., Assisting Presbyter, New Israel Reformed Episcopal Church, Charleston, SC

hello tall, welcome to TAW!

i can't really contribute in theological issues myself but i suppose talking to an orthodox priest and studying some books (some of the already suggested in here) is much better than trying to find answers in a forum.

forums are very nice and may have lot's of answers, but it's just a way to THE WAY.

the answers are within you. and when you start questioning you are pressing buttons and you are activating the process of bringing these answers into consciousness.


(am i say anything here or am i just irrelevant...? )

Here is an example of 2 "dead" people clearly glorifying God:

"As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem." --Luke 9

I am busy in grad school analyzing some topic in phonology.


So, I will just point you in one direction scripturally.

I'm sure the Orthodox viewers will remember the Old Testament reading we do during Holy Week in which the DRY BONES Epistle is read.

I don't know about you guys, but this is one Epistle I always wait for expectantly. It talks about the resurrection in no uncertain terms.

During Christ's earthly life, He preformed several miracles of raising people from the dead. Two come to mind.

Lazarus
The son of the widow

After the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ, His apostles and disciples worked many miracles, including the resurrection from the dead. Recall the man who fell from the window during the Breaking of the Bread (our Divine Liturgy in which the Eucharist is offered). The Apostles prayed and the man was restored to life.

Then too, in one of the accounts of the death of Jesus Christ, it talks about the Old Testament Saints rising from their tombs and walking around Jerusalem.

We believe in the Nicene Creed: The Resurrection of the Dead.
This is one reason why we don't cremate those who have fallen asleep in Christ. Notice how we use the term "fallen asleep" because death no longer is victorous. Christ trampled down death by His Death.

Christ is risen from the dead
Trampling down death by death
And upon those in the Tombs bestowing Life.

Those in heaven don't sleep but behold the Glory of God in Paradise. After the General Resurrection, they will behold Christ in their own glorified bodies. However, the damned will go to their eternal punishment in their bodies that will be forever tormented but never destroyed, and their memory will be no more.

Both the blessed and the damned will behold the presence of Christ, but the blessed will rejoice while the damned will be in horror for eternity.

Is God just to do this? Yes. He has given us the free will to either accept His love or reject it.

We are offering you that choice. Come and see. Experience the Ancient Church in our Divine Liturgy. You won't regret it.

tall73 said:

I must confess, I am quite upset over a number of things right now. I hope this does not come across as adversarial. That is not my intent. But I do have some real questions, and I keep hearing that the orthodox have the answers...they just never seem to actually get around to answering in GT where I frequent.

a. I am not completely content with all my beliefs, that they are in all ways consistent with the Bible.

b. Every time I try to discuss these things I get told I am a heretic, often by those from the Orthodox church. However, they don't resolve the real theological issues for me either.

While some think this is all just a joke here, and that we all are here to prove our position right, I assure you, it is not the case. This is my life. I work as a pastor and study with people all the time. It is not small thing for me to think that I might be telling them error.

I would love a better way to explain some things, but I don't see it.

Particularly right now I am wrestling with the Bible's view of death. There are a number of texts that seem to suggest

a. the dead rest until the resurrection
b. there is no false dualism between soul and body
c. our souls are not immortal entities.

Yet, when I present this evidence, and try to answer the texts that suggest another way, I am told I am a heretic. But none explain the texts.
Here are some of the texts I struggle with. Please give any insights that the orthodox church has to offer.



Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.


Moreover, please explain how Jesus' spirit, if it is a separate entity, can go to

a. God
b. Hell
c. Paradise

all at the same time.

Also state how it works, since He says His spirit goes to God, but He also says that He did not ascend yet to the Father?


Explain why paradise, in the other bible texts , is not referring to somewhere in the ground ,but in the presence of God.

Furthermore, please clarify...is our soul immortal? And if so why does the Bible say that God alone is immortal, that we must put ON immortality etc.

There are others besides, but I don't want to overwhelm you. I am not trying to be a pain, but I want to take ALL of the Bible evidence, not just some of it. I was discussing with my wife today that there are some things that trouble me greatly, and that if I could resolve them a different way I would in fact go to a different church.

So if i am missing something, please explain what it is.

I will not respond to your statements, other than with thanks, etc. since this is not a debate area. But then, if I am not satisfied, I won't believe it either. So be as thorough as you can.

And please do not cite all the ones that favor your position. I have looked them over and tried to explain them many times. I acknowledge that there are texts that seem to say the opposite of my view. Some I can explain. Some I don't know if I can. But in both cases I am familiar with them. What I need is an explanation that makes sense of the texts that seem to say we are dead, and know nothing.

And if there are some good answers i might post more texts for explanation.

God bless

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If you like to read & study...there are Orthodox Bible Commentary books that might be helpful.

Conciliar Press carries a series called The Orthodox Bible Study Companion series. (www.conciliarpress.com) Most of the titles are NT books. Maybe someone can recommend some good OT commentaries?

I've also heard that Christ in the Psalms by Patrick Henry Reardon is good. The description calls it a devotional but indicates that the book discusses how various psalms have been interpreted and used liturgically.

seriously distressed...does orthodoxy have the answers?

Click to expand...

Yes - now the question is - are we able to find them for you.

I must confess, I am quite upset over a number of things right now. I hope this does not come across as adversarial. That is not my intent. But I do have some real questions, and I keep hearing that the orthodox have the answers...they just never seem to actually get around to answering in GT where I frequent.

Click to expand...

GT is a nasty place. It is hard to have a discussion because topics bounce along and nothing ever really gets resolved.

a. I am not completely content with all my beliefs, that they are in all ways consistent with the Bible.

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Consistent with the bible or consistent with a modern and specific interpretation of the bible?

b. Every time I try to discuss these things I get told I am a heretic, often by those from the Orthodox church. However, they don't resolve the real theological issues for me either.

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Need to call you to the carpet here. Where has any Orthodox person called you a heretic?

I can say that the belief that one should only worship on the Sabbath is a false teaching. That is not calling you a heretic.
I can say that the idea of soul sleep is error and a modern innovation and that still is not calling you a heretic.

While some think this is all just a joke here, and that we all are here to prove our position right, I assure you, it is not the case. This is my life. I work as a pastor and study with people all the time. It is not small thing for me to think that I might be telling them error.

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I do not think that anyone would doubt your sincerity. You have posted here before and have always seemed to be kind and sincere.

Separate yourself from doctrine. You are a human being and it seems to me a pretty decent one. From what I have read you are an ethical person that is sincere about your religion.

The SDA Doctrine is contrary to much of Historical Christianity. It is also in some areas downright offensive. SDA Doctrine states clearly that non SDA's are not only heretics but apostate.

Again - I see you as a person and I see the doctrine as two totally different things.

I would love a better way to explain some things, but I don't see it.

Click to expand...

I think I see where you are coming from.

Particularly right now I am wrestling with the Bible's view of death. There are a number of texts that seem to suggest

a. the dead rest until the resurrection
b. there is no false dualism between soul and body
c. our souls are not immortal entities.

Click to expand...

Alrighty.

Yet, when I present this evidence, and try to answer the texts that suggest another way, I am told I am a heretic. But none explain the texts.
Here are some of the texts I struggle with. Please give any insights that the orthodox church has to offer.

Click to expand...

Psa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

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For this one we have to back up a few verses. Let's look at the whole psalm.

(Psalms 115:1) Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

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Amin! Doxa si, Kyrie, Doxa Si!

(Psalms 115:2) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

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Question.

(Psalms 115:3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

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Answer.

(Psalms 115:4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

(Psalms 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

(Psalms 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

(Psalms 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

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Here are the idols. They do not speak hear etc.

(Psalms 115:8) They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

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Critical verse.

(Psalms 115:9) O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:10) O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:11) Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

(Psalms 115:12) The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron.

(Psalms 115:13) He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great.

(Psalms 115:14) The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.

(Psalms 115:15) Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.

(Psalms 115:16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

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Speaking to Israel here. Telling Israel to praise God.

(Psalms 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

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Who was it in this psalm that did not hear or speak? Who was like unto them? Those who trust in the Idols.

(Psalms 115:18) But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

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Back to Israel. If they can not praise while dead then how will they do it evermore?
You see - if we look at the whole psalm we see that it is those that are like unto the idols - those that worship the idols that are spiritually dead. The very next verse after the one you list contradicts soul sleep saying:

But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

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Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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No problem here. This is the final Judgement and resurrection. Some will be resurrected into communion with God - others will be in a far worse condition.

Psa 146:2 I will praise the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

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In my Orthodox Study Bible Psa 146:4 has a note to look at Ecc 12:7

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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Moreover, please explain how Jesus' spirit, if it is a separate entity, can go to

a. God
b. Hell
c. Paradise

all at the same time.

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1 - because he is God
2 - because time is irrelevant.

Also - remember why it is that he went to "hell".
Chirst went not to "hell" but to Sheol. The grave. Why? To preach the gospel to those in Sheol. He went there to proclaim the good news ot the spirits that were at that time stranded in the grave. He trampled down death by death and to those in the grave (sheol) he gave life.
If you had died pre-Christ you would have gone into Sheol - to Abraham's bosom or to hades. There you would have waited for the Logos to redeem mankind and restore you to your original purpose of communion with God. You would have been very aware of your surroundings.

(Luke 16:20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

(Luke 16:21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

(Luke 16:22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

(Luke 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(Luke 16:24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(Luke 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(Luke 16:26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(Luke 16:27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

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I would also point out that not only is this an argument against soul sleep but it is also a direct revelation of post-mortem intercession.

Also state how it works, since He says His spirit goes to God, but He also says that He did not ascend yet to the Father?

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There are some things my friend that you are going to have to accept are mysteries. I can not not give you a 100% answer and I refuse to make up something in order to attempt to convince you. Better to tell you that I do not know how everything works than to damage you by lying to you.

Explain why paradise, in the other bible texts , is not referring to somewhere in the ground ,but in the presence of God.

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Erm.. Abraham's bosom was in Sheol. That was a pretty good place to be.... True paradise will not exist until after the final judgement. That does not preclude us from having a foretaste of paradise tho. It is this foretaste that we gain after death - not the final paradise.

Furthermore, please clarify...is our soul immortal? And if so why does the Bible say that God alone is immortal, that we must put ON immortality etc.

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We were created to be immortal. When Man fell he forecefully removed himself from the source of life. That is where death came from. We must replug ourselves back into the source of life.

Again - this does not preclude a foretaste of paradise. You are confusing paradise with the foretaste.

There are others besides, but I don't want to overwhelm you. I am not trying to be a pain, but I want to take ALL of the Bible evidence, not just some of it. I was discussing with my wife today that there are some things that trouble me greatly, and that if I could resolve them a different way I would in fact go to a different church.

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Careful... many have become Orthodox Priests this way

The problem here is that this is not even a question for us. This was settled over a thousand years ago and we are cool with that. When you throw away tradition you throw away the guide and then you have to go round and do the work of the fathers over again.

Do you think that you are a greater Christain than Polycarp? How about Ephraim the Syrian? Symeon the New Theologian? Guess what? None of them took on the task of proving everything. Yet protestants everywhere think it is up to them to interpret the whole shebang. If that is not prelest at its very core then I know not what is.

So if i am missing something, please explain what it is.

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Tradition. You lack the guide of Holy Tradition. Sola Scriptura allows you to interpret the bible the way that you want to - not the way that the author did. This is a simple truth.
There is a single and ultimate truth. Any departure from that truth is corruption and falsehood.

I will not respond to your statements, other than with thanks, etc. since this is not a debate area. But then, if I am not satisfied, I won't believe it either. So be as thorough as you can.

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I do not have any problem at all with you responding so long as you are not nasty about it. From your history I do not think that will be a problem at all. If you do not respond then we will not be able to fully satisfy your questions.

Let me make it clear that you at your worst have been better than I was when I first came here.

And please do not cite all the ones that favor your position. I have looked them over and tried to explain them many times. I acknowledge that there are texts that seem to say the opposite of my view. Some I can explain. Some I don't know if I can. But in both cases I am familiar with them. What I need is an explanation that makes sense of the texts that seem to say we are dead, and know nothing.

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What you need is the guide.

Tradition and Scripture are parallel. If one appears to strike the other then it is the understanding that has to be corrected. Tradition is the lines on the highway. Tradition is the instruction booklet to the bible.

Tall,

The answers are absolutely there. Whether or not they are within us, a group of lay persons who are probably not fluent enough in all the ECF to find you the relevant passages that refute all of the SDA teachings you are questioning is another thing. You can get something here, but I would not expect to get it all. Some outside research will be necessary.

One of our posters is an ex-SDA, but he is posting infrequently right now as his life got busy. May I suggest PM-ing Kolya as he will probably have more directly related information for you? I would also suggest speaking with Orthodox clergy--just as you are more educated than most of your parish, so clergy members are expected to be more educated than their parishioners, so they are the most well-equipped to field your questions.

Keep them coming, and everyone will do what they can.
The answers are here.

I am sorry Tall, I looked at your faith icon and thought it was Pentecostal. It was early early in the morning and I had not slept yet.

But it does allow me to point something out. Let's say that I never looked at the writings of the other people here in TAW and their comments about SDA. If I only read the OP and my post and whatever you have said in your post and never read anything else, I might still be addressing you as if your theology was Pentecostal.

If I continued with this assumption that you are Pentecostal and only addressed you as that because it was "my" interpretation of your faith icon and never looked to see what Erwin's interpretation of the faith icon was, would I be in truth?

The Holy Spirit does guide us in understanding and accepting Holy Scriptures. But Orthodox believe that in addition to helping us as individual's, the Holy Spirit has provided this help to the Church, through the Church Father's. Father's who studied at the feet of the Apostles, or at the feet of those who were at the feet of the Apostles.

That is why Apostolic Succession is such an important thing to us. We have kept the understanding of doctrine since the beginning of the faith.

Now, I am a layperson. I am not an expert. I am likely to tell you something inaccurately. It is better to read original sources than to read me.

Nevertheless, you have access to original sources and you chose to come here and ask us infallable humans. So, I will tell you my understanding, limited though it is.

When we die, our soul is seperated from our body.

(That is our definition of death.)

But under no circumstances is anyone ever seperated from Christ and the Trinity (at least until the Second Coming, but we will get to that.)

My body is said to "sleep" because it will be used again at the Second Coming of Christ when we will be resurrected in our bodies. (Our souls will return to our bodies and will be on earth again, in the New Earth.)

My soul is now seperated from my body and is therefore "outside of time."

Being outside of time, in many ways, the Second Coming has already occured to that soul, or it has not yet occured... both really... because it is outside of time. The foretaste of the final outcome that will occur at the Judgement of Christ in His Second Coming is therefore experienced.

Some call that "repose of the soul".

The point is that the soul is immortal.

There are many Orthodox who believe that the soul is immortal and will always live in the Love and Light of Christ. There are some Orthodox who believe that some souls that have rejected God will be "spewed out" and might go to a place where they do not experience the Love and Light of Christ.

As Orthodox, we don't have to agree on this matter. It is fine to have either beliefs.

I myself have not formulated a final decision about what I believe on this matter and I have decided that I will not try to. I believe that God has taken care of this matter and my deciding what I believe about it will not sway God one way or the other.

To my understanding Paradise is the experience we will have in our Ressurected bodies in the new Earth that will come after the Second Coming of Christ. There will be no more illness or pain, no more suffering.

To my understanding "Heaven" is the Throne of God. This is where the bodiless one's worship Him in all Glory. I believe that there are some human's who have been elevated to a level of holiness through the work of the Holy Spirit that they are in "Heaven" and intercede for us in prayer to God. This would include Moses and Ellisha, the Theotokos and the Saints.

I am willing to admit that my understanding is faulty. I believe that it is possible that only the bodiless Angels and the Trinity is in "Heaven".

Also, consider that once the soul leaves the body there is no "time". Therefore, it is possible that the Saints are not in "Heaven" but are instead in Paradise and are interceding for us there.

Again, it is my belief that if I never completely figure this out, that it will not change the course of events. God has this taken care of and my beliefs one way or the other will not sway Him.

However, I do believe that I need to understand Truth, and True Teachings so that I can serve the Lord fully.

I have more to add but I am going to put this up now and come back with more later.