Jesus paid our debt?

nada_te_turbe said:

Hola, everyone! This is only my second post, my first one was an introduction.

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Welcome.

I thought I may as well jump right in with the reason that I'm here--to try to get some meaningful dialogue about questions I have regarding christian theology.

I've been having trouble with penal substitution lately, and I'll explain why. Christian doctrine says that we are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God, and "the wages of sin is death". Therefore, in our fallen state, we "owe" God an eternity in hell to repay that debt. So God, in his infinite mercy, sends Jesus to take our punishment instead.

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There is more than one model. The link below has tables that give a rough outline of the various ones:

http://www.vts.edu/2001/st1/atonement.htm

But what I don't get is, how did Jesus' few days of suffering pay the same debt that billionsof people suffering in hell for eternitywould have paid? I just don't get why it's a fair trade, so to speak. Wouldn't Jesus, to truly make up the debt owed, actually have had to go to hell? Forever?

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Good question. I'll need to think about it before I even begin to try to answer.

nada,

I started a thread on the atonement here: http://www.christianforums.com/t97074 a few weeks ago although there were no responses. Its pretty long and goes into how PS developed from the 11th century on.

From that link of atonement models, the moral example theory is the solidarity model of atonement. I'd personally call the solidarity model the best possible option for liberal Christians:

(Joe) Metacrock has a page up on this:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Theology/salvation_others1.html

The Bible, in fact uses a number of metaphors to describe the person and work of Jesus.

I outlined many of these in my own "Images of Salvation Guide:

http://www.after-hourz.net/ri/ios1.html

I find the ransom theory from section two of particular interests. Why? Jesus' death is explicitly called a ransom in scripture. But the question is a ransom for what?

My thoughts were these:

The ransom theory says that Jesus' life was a ransom paid for the sake of our salvation. In many circles this view has been scorned and largely rejected as naive. A ransom is something paid to a captor for the release of something or someone. In this case it is asked to whom did God have to pay or simply find it good to pay a ransom for us? To himself? God holds us captive? Surely that is false. To those who believe he is a literal being, what about a ransom paid to Satan? Does the enemy hold us captive and was Jesus' death a ransom allowing us to be freed from him? This cannot be seriously maintained either. The notion that God would need to or even should find it good to pay anything to Satan for our salvation is ludicrous and quite simply, bad theology. What about sin? Surely we were captives to sin before being liberated? As Richard Purtill wrote, "To say we were captives of "sin" is good New Testament language, but sin is not a personal agent who can be given a reason to release us." The objection against the the ransom theory then, is that there is no one to whom God could have paid a ransom to.
This view is not easily dismissed by Christians who hold to the authority of scripture. In Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 Jesus is the "Son of Man who did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many". As Mentioned by Borg, in Luke's inaugural address (4:18-19) Jesus is sent to "proclaim freedom for the prisoners" and to"release the oppressed." In 1 Timothy 2:6 Jesus is the mediator between God and man who "who gave himself as a ransom for all men". Hebrews 9:15, in the terms of sacrificial covenant, also says that Jesus "died as a ransom to set people free." As we saw above in Marcus Borg's discussion, the idea of bondage and liberation abounds in biblical usage. We also see that the ransom theory has wide scriptural support. So the question remains? Who has us captive? To whom are we prisoners of?

One possible answer is actually right under our noses and was implicitly stated by Borg. Who has us in captivity? We do! We are our own captors and Jesus' death was a ransom which frees us from ourselves. We hold ourselves captive and God, through Jesus' death on the Cross, paid a ransom to us so that we might be released from ourselves. He wanted to liberate us from our own enslavement to sin and to reconcile us to himself. That is why Paul proclaims in Romans 5:8 that "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Through Jesus' sacrificial death God tells us that he loves us and by telling us that He loves us, He gives us good reason to release ourselves from captivity.

Releasing ourselves from captivity is the same as "reconciling ourselves with God' or "getting over ourselves". God empowers our return but reconciliation is a two-way street so the Ransom theory ties directly into the solidarity model of Jesus' death. Jesus' death creating solidarity between men and God is good New Testament theology as opposed to the more common penal substitution soteriology

And yes, penal substition probably did start around the eleventh century or something in some sort of fuedal society IIRC.

I outlined a ton of problems with literal forms of penal substition here:

http://www.after-hourz.net/ri/ps1.html

Vinnie

But what I don't get is, how did Jesus' few days of suffering pay the same debt that billionsof people suffering in hell for eternitywould have paid? I just don't get why it's a fair trade, so to speak. Wouldn't Jesus, to truly make up the debt owed, actually have had to go to hell? Forever?

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They usually think that by claiming Jesus was ontologically God and infinitely perfect makes the alientation he felt with the sins of the world on his shoulders infinite. Of course, sin is not a "literal entity" and hwo it became a "transferrable commodity" are not answered. Other than by misapplying terms (you cabn bake a "cake" but you can't bake a "sin" or literally take it on since its something you do, not an actual thing itself) we are left with the same issue. How did Jesus suffering atone for an infinite duration of eternal torment for billions and billions of people?

Vinnie

You might enjoy my thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t111882&page=1

"Sin" is an aberation. It seperates us from God, and makes our mindset carnal and selfish. By Christ's sacrifice, we are allowed an avenue to persue true righteousness, not by the saving of ourselves for our own good, but by serving the God we love with love that God showed us.

"""""the saving of ourselves for our own good, but by serving the God we love with love that God showed us."""""""

Isn't coming to the realization that we hold ourselves captive and need reconciliation equivalent to realizing the God we love on a functional basis? Is not saving ourselves serving God? Wh ythe needless semantics bifurcation?

Vinnie

I don't believe in atonement anymore.

I believe God forgives us for most things simply because God made us the way we are......vulnerable to sin. The only thing God doesn't forgive is the rejection (non-acceptance) of grace.

I believe Jesus came as an example and also to BRING grace (through the releasing of the Holy Spirit) to us.........and grace is the power that allows us to have changed hearts--IF we accept it.

It is available to all people, even if they don't know the Jesus story......people intuitively know grace.

Grace WAS always available from the beginning, but, in some mysterious way, when Jesus came, grace became more easily available to all.

So Jesus was the Son of God AND our Savior in that he showed us how to live and die (and WHY to die) and also released the means (the power) for us to have changed hearts and lives.

I realize that I contradict most popular and traditional Christian theology with these statements........but I believe them to be absolutely true.

They sure work a lot better than the silly traditional beliefs.

Peace to you,

Good posts, people.

Personally, I find it very hard to believe God, Just and Good on the Highest and most Perfect degree would take the responsability and accontability out of mankind. Jesus showed the patch. Now, we are responsable for every single act we do, and we will respond to each and everyone of them.

I wish I had something deep to say.
Atonement theology is one of the things I'm most interested in...precisely because I can't wrap my head around it no matter how I look at it, and yet I'm quite sure that there's something there that needs my attention even if I can't understand what's going on.

It's like the blind men and the elephant. The elephant is way too big for us to understand, so we grasp at little pieces of this and say, "It's this," when no matter how you look at it it's incomplete.

In some ways it's very appealing to say that nothing more is going on than Jesus serving as an example of perfect, humble, self-sacfrificial love that both reminds us of God's love for us and gives us something to live up to and emulate. It makes a lot of sense.... And yet I think it's something more than that. The image of us being ransomed from bondage to sin and death is one that is, perhaps, "silly." It is hard to live in this world and believe that it is a redeemed world. But the smartest thing anyone's ever told me about the crucifixion is that we live in a world where perfect love will get you crucified. We do. Many people who were inspirational to me have been assassinated. So, you can look at that, and you can get cynical. It's pointless to love people, it's pointless to care, it's pointless to change the world, because you won't change anything and you'll just get yourself killed. And yet. It isn't pointless, because that wasn't the end of it. That kind of love...was strong enough to conquer death, to transcend it.

So, like I said, I don't know. I can't even theorize. But I do feel the need to keep on taking stabs at it.

I think the concept was a natural outcome of the Jewishness of the first Christians.

They were programmed to think......if you sin, you kill something to make things right.

But I don't think Jesus was about that at all.

If I am angry with one of my kids it doesn't resolve the problem to smash my thumb with a hammer.

Hola nada_te_turbe!
I am not good with flashy languange and big words so I'll just get right to it.
The bible tells us that God hates sin. The bible tells us that sin cannot dwell with God. Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (Heaven) any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
See also - Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

The bible also tells us that God loves us soooo much that he sacrificed his only begotten Son on the cross so that we may receive his salvation. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You asked if what Christ did was really enough to pay the debt that we ALL (billions of sinners) owe. Yes. Lets reason this out, shall we?

If you knew that the only way to save a bunch of sinners was to sacrifice your OWN son, would you?
Well, God did. Not only did he send him to die, he made him what he hates. Sin. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says "For he (God) hath made him (Jesus Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

God loves us THAT much. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
If you ask me, that's quite the sacrifice. You see, first he had to humble himself and come down to earth and be born of a human being. He left glory to dwell among us. God humbled himself and put on flesh in order to save sinners like you and me. Then, he bore OUR SINS on the cross and died one of the most torturous deaths known to man and definatelly THE most torturous death known to man at that time. The scorging that people received prior to being crusified was so severe that it actually ripped appart the skin and exposed the ribs and internals.

In my own limitted human frame of refrence, I would go so far as to say that that most certainly was payment enough when the payment was made by the all mightly God. Even if I haven't convinced you that the payment was enough by what I've said, just have this thought in mind: If God says it's enough...it is. After all, it's His creation and it has got to abide by His rules.

I hope this helps!

nada_te_turbe said:

...So God, in his infinite mercy, sends Jesus to take our punishment instead.

But what I don't get is, how did Jesus' few days of suffering pay the same debt that billionsof people suffering in hell for eternitywould have paid? I just don't get why it's a fair trade, so to speak. Wouldn't Jesus, to truly make up the debt owed, actually have had to go to hell? Forever?

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I understand that Christianity is the only religion knowing the concept of forgiving. But forgiving is no trade-off for those who believe in Jesus. Jesus suffering does not equal the total of suffering in hell.
People simply are forgiven their sins. Not because Jesus died for that, but because it is the core of Gods message anyway. We have to forgive others like God forgives ours. Unconditional.

As a symbol of that message Jezus dies at the cross, innocent. To show us how much God wants us to get the message. He offers the life of his own Son and thereby of Himself. Imagine your kid having to go through pain innocently, that is how strong God believes in his message. He himself takes that pain to symbolically pay for your and mine sins.

That message is so much opposing our human nature that also we also would like to kill and murder anybody who would speak that to us. Because forgiving is against our nature. We want to be paid by people who owe us.

We go to hell where people are like that. Unless we accept it and try to follow Jezus. But then we will have to be prepared to follow the example of Jezus. And that may cost your life, free donated to other people who don't even deserve it!