Astronomy and the Preterists

Caedmon · Jun 17, 2002

My 500th Post!!!

Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." - Psalms 96:10, NASB (emphasis mine)

This SAME Scripture was ALSO used to support the claim that the the Sun orbitted the Earth. Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed. But even if the Earth survives the red giant expansion(nearly impossible and astronomically ludicrous), it WILL lose the potential to support life(by losing it's heat source) when the Sun begins to experience heat death, shrinking into a white dwarf, then black dwarf.

If you would like an elementary explanation, this is a relatively good site for beginners:Sun Death

How do preterists deal with this scientific inevitability?

Didaskomenos · Jun 17, 2002

humblejoe,

Do you believe in the Resurrection? Creation (whether evolutionary or otherwise)? Any supernatural interventions into the physical universe?

davo · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe

Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." - Psalms 96:10, NASB (emphasis mine)

This SAME Scripture was ALSO used to support the claim that the the Sun orbitted the Earth. Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed.

Joe, I just posted this in response to you reply on the other thread.

Originally posted by davo
Ok joe, you can explain away that scripture using someone elses faulty interpretation of that scripture -do you likewise explain away the rest?

As good and as important as science is, it [science] isn't the final arbitrator on truth -at least for "believers" -well, this one anyway. 100 years ago science held "100 laws of scientific fact" -they are all now debunked -why, because science has gained a better understanding of God's good creation. Science changes [it has to] -truth doesn't.

Christ upholds "all things" [the physical world included] by the word of His power, and "in Him all things hold together." [if you believe it -I do ]

davo

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
My 500th Post!!!

Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." - Psalms 96:10, NASB (emphasis mine)

This SAME Scripture was ALSO used to support the claim that the the Sun orbitted the Earth. Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed.

As for me and my house we will stick with the words of God over the ideas of Men. After all God is the creater of the world, and He know what he is talking about.

Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the (earth which he has established for ever).

Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigns (the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved).

Psalms 119:89-90 For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven, Thy faithulness is unto all generations thou has established the (earth and it abideth).

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation come but (the earth abideth for ever).

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV

These Scriptures tell us, the world will always go on. As you can see, it is the futurist who have the dilemma not the preterist.

Caedmon · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by davo
Ok joe, you can explain away that scripture using someone elses faulty interpretation of that scripture -do you likewise explain away the rest?

As good and as important as science is, it [science] isn't the final arbitrator on truth -at least for "believers" -well, this one anyway. 100 years ago science held "100 laws of scientific fact" -they are all now debunked -why, because science has gained a better understanding of God's good creation. Science changes [it has to] -truth doesn't.

Christ upholds "all things" [the physical world included] by the word of His power, and "in Him all things hold together." [if you believe it -I do ]

davo

Of course science changes. That is one of it's main characteristics. Science changes when better theories are established. Do religious ideas do the same? Why did the church authorities so adamantly and consistently demand that Galileo be tried for claiming something that their own scientists had also discovered?

And concerning those other verses, why should I interpret those verses to mean that the Earth will exist forever? Why should I not merely consider it be hyperbolic poetic language?

And what about the "flat earth" language used in the Old and New Testaments? Where are the "four corners of the world"? Has anyone found the "four corners" yet?

Concerning the death pattern of stars less than 25 solar masses as observed in countless recorded examples of stellar death, planets as closely surrounding such a star as our planets do our Sun will be destroyed as that star goes through it's final death throes. Unless there is a continuous, miraculous replacement of our Sun every 9 billion years or so, starting about 4 billion years from now, it will use up all its fuel, go through the stellar death process, and the Earth will be destroyed.

Didaskomenos · Jun 17, 2002

Joe,

Would you mind answering my question? I know you asked first, but I'm not a preterist.

It would help me understand your reticence to accept divine intervention as a remedy for this dying universe.

davo · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
Of course science changes. That is one of it's main characteristics. Science changes when better theories are established. Do religious ideas do the same? Why did the church authorities so adamantly and consistently demand that Galileo be tried for claiming something that their own scientists had also discovered?

Certainly they do, just look at the Reformation -progression. I don't speak for the likes that were after Galileo's scalp.

Originally posted by humblejoe
And concerning those other verses, why should I interpret those verses to mean that the Earth will exist forever? Why should I not merely consider it be hyperbolic poetic language?

The Scriptures do indeed use hyperbole, and other modes of expression -how one interprets scripture often comes down to our own presuppostions, bias' etc. You then need to check consistancy, context and cultural norms in understanding what's being said.

Originally posted by humblejoe
And what about the "flat earth" language used in the Old and New Testaments? Where are the "four corners of the world"? Has anyone found the "four corners" yet?

"flat earth language" -you see, that's "your" interpretive key [bias] showing straight-off. "Four corners" is usually seen as expressing "the extremities" -or if you must have it literal -a three sided pyramid has four points, all of which fitting into a sphere, meet with the sphere's surface.

Originally posted by humblejoe
Concerning the death pattern of stars less than 25 solar masses as observed in countless recorded examples of stellar death, planets as closely surrounding such a star as our planets do our Sun will be destroyed as that star goes through it's final death throes. Unless there is a continuous, miraculous replacement of our Sun every 9 billion years or so, starting about 4 billion years from now, it will use up all its fuel, go through the stellar death process, and the Earth will be destroyed.

Hey Joe, I don't doubt for a milli-second your faith in science [no problems], but this idea that science debunks the bible, and therefore the christian message, or that bible is opposed to scientific development -are both red herrings usually thrown up as a "reason" for ignoring the Bibles message. Which is: God believes in you and me.

The bible is not a science text book -it is The Book on Redemption, through relationship with God. Science is great -God makes it so

.

davo

Caedmon · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
humblejoe,

Do you believe in the Resurrection? Creation (whether evolutionary or otherwise)? Any supernatural interventions into the physical universe?

Sorry for neglecting you, Didaskomenos.

Yes, I do believe in the Resurrection of Christ, because it is necessary Christian belief. I believe that God did found the universe, whether it "poofed" into existence, came through the Big Bang, or otherwise.

"Supernatural interventions in the physical universe" is a difficult subject. One way to put it is that God takes advantage of the existing laws of physics, science, etc. Another is to say that He simply "makes" things happen when He wants things to take a different direction, contrary to accepted laws or not. Concerning astronomical issues, such as the universe, galaxies, solar systems, etc., I believe that God has designed things to function certain ways. Being a believer in the total Sovereignty of God(a Calvinist), I would say that God planned and established everything before time. I don't think He planned everything ahead of time, just to "step in" every now and then to make adjustments if things don't "go His way".

In the words of Albert Einstein, "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." I believe that the workings of the universe itself are miraculous, so to say a "miracle" would have to take place to save Earth from the Sun's death is a bit redundant and somewhat confusing. I believe that the miracle of the universe is that it works at all. I say that the Earth eventually being destroyed, or not, is a miracle in itself.

I'm sorry if I've confused you, but it's the best I can do for now. I'll try to elaborate later on.

Caedmon · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by davo
Hey Joe, I don't doubt for a milli-second your faith in science [no problems], but this idea that science debunks the bible, and therefore the christian message, or that bible is opposed to scientific development -are both red herrings usually thrown up as a "reason" for ignoring the Bibles message. Which is: God believes in you and me.

My intention is not to "debunk" the Bible or "disprove" Scripture. My problem is with the preterist interpretation that the Earth will never be destroyed.

Didaskomenos · Jun 17, 2002

Ok, so say I'm a "new kind of preterist"

that happens to believe the world without end stuff is hyperbolic. Would both of you hang me because I'd allow God to intervene at some later time in history he hasn't told us about? I'm not saying partial preterism - I'm saying maybe we're just on a need-to-know basis with our God, and he's chosen to have us just trust him to keep us. Or maybe we'll all blow up and that's how everybody gets to heaven! LOL

Another point here, Joe. I liked your response to my question - our dear friend Jean Cauvin was no idiot, eh? I mean, if Einstein agrees, who am I to dissent?

But seriously, given that the sun is going to explode or whatever, and the eternal earth passages are poetic, why shouldn't we also believe that eternal life is as much a hyperbole?

Patmosman_sga · Jun 17, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed. But even if the Earth survives the red giant expansion(nearly impossible and astronomically ludicrous), it WILL lose the potential to support life(by losing it's heat source) when the Sun begins to experience heat death, shrinking into a white dwarf, then black dwarf.

So the sun will one day cease to generate light. Big deal!

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light the nations will walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. (Revelation 21:23-25)

Whether you take this literally or poetically, the basic meaning is the same: God's redeemed creation is sustained not by created things, but by the Creator himself. The "natural" (fallen) world needs the sun by day and the moon by night because such boundaries are necessary in a creation that is less than God's original intent.

But the hope of all creation is not that the "natural" world will "one day" be "destroyed," but that it will be liberated and redeemed, so as to reflect the ultimate, "spiritual" reality which God intended from the beginning. As N.T. Wright has stated it so succintly, "You don't liberate something by destroying it."

When Christians speak of "the end of the world," it ought not have the negative connotation of cosmic catastrophe which inspires fear in the hearts of some of the most devout believers. Rather, it ought to have the positive connotation of cosmic redemption which inspires hope in the hearts of the most feeble novices in the faith.

Science can only point us to the obvious: that "this world" is only temporary. But only through faith in Christ can we see beyond the obvious, temporal reality and point to the ultimate, eternal reality which is already breaking forth into our midst as the Holy Spirit transforms us--spirit, soul and body--into the perfect image and likeness of Christ to the glory of God the Father. The more we outwardly manifest this inward transformation toward wholeness, the more we embody the hope of all creation.

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 17, 2002

Just thought I would throw my two cents in. First, science is not the "enemy" of religion that it used to be. Scientists are increasingly gaining the technology to look inside Darwin's black box. Darwin theorized that once humanity gained the ability to study nature closely enough, there would be surprising simplicity and great evidence for evolution. However, scientists have found quite the opposite-- amazing complexity and ever increasing evidence of intelligent design. The intelligent design movement is growing in the scientific community. Most will not speak the word "God," but they are beginning to see God's fingerprints everywhere-- in biology, physics, astronomy, even the fossil record is now showing that complex life exploded into existence.

Moreover, the evidence is pointing not only to a Creator, but also to the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible speaks as a Being that is both in the four dimensions of space/time and beyond and greater than these dimensions. The Creator would have to be beyond these four dimensions to be pre-existent and indeed the Creator.

Let me make a wild prediction. Hey, the futurists do it, why not me? Fifty to a hundred years from now science could possibly be one of Christianity's friends. It certainly appears to be headed that way very slowly. Yet, if you look at the creation closely enough, you are eventually going to see undeniable evidence of the Creator.

As for the sun, actually, if it is possible for the sun to die, advanced life on earth would be long gone before the sun became a red giant. As a sun ages, its light grows more intense. The current projection is that we only have 30 million years left until the sun is just too bright. However, these theories are just that--theories. Our understanding of the sun changes almost yearly. Plus, the fact that our sun is the most stable star astronomers have been able to observe.

Then there is that number 30,000,000. Can you imagine what life will be like 1,000 years from now considering the current rate of change and the growth of the kingdom of God? No, you can't. Now, think of that number again. 30,000,000! Humanity has only taken a mere step in its journey into the infinite grace of God. Who knows what the future holds. You don't. I don't. Only One does. Why don't we leave this issue to Him?

Ozark

GTX · Jun 19, 2002

I know Ozark, I too can't wait for Christs return!

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
So the sun will one day cease to generate light. Big deal!

You don't understand. It won't just "cease to generate light". It will inflate toward the planets, completely engulfing and incinerating Earth, literally vaporizing it into dust.

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
It will inflate toward the planets, completely engulfing and incinerating Earth, literally vaporizing it into dust.

So Joe,

Is that when your view of the endtimes says the end occurs? If not, then it will require divine intervention, just like preterism.

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos

So Joe,

Is that when your view of the endtimes says the end occurs? If not, then it will require divine intervention, just like preterism.

I'n not exactly sure what you mean here... :scratch:

I don't know what the future of man's spirituality and existence on Earth and all that will be by that time. All that I'm saying is that approximately 4 billion years from now, the Sun will begin to die, destroying Earth in the process, thus, scientifically, negating the idea that the Earth will literally exist forever.

And if the Sun's death isn't enough, think about this. The Andromeda galaxy is on a direct collision course with our own galaxy, the Milky Way. In approximately 3 billion years, our two galaxies will collide in a massive gravitational field tangling collision, and our beloved Earth will most likely be destroyed or lose the capacity to support life in the process. So the Sun's death may not be the primary planet-killer, although the death of the Sun would most definitely destroy Earth. Check out this link for more information: Andromeda/Milky Way Collision

The point is, our Earth isn't going to exist forever.

Didaskomenos · Jun 19, 2002

No kidding. You said you were against the preterist view that God will intervene in the future because God uses the laws of nature, etc. If so, then in your view of eschatology nothing can occur before and must include the astronomical events that you foresee to be the end of planet earth, or else God would have to intervene and violate the the mechanics of his own universe.

davo · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
All that I'm saying is that approximately 4 billion years from now...

Originally posted by humblejoe
In approximately 3 billion years, our two galaxies will collide...

Hey Joe, I rekon you would do ok on the weather channel

only joking mate

davo

Patmosman_sga · Jun 19, 2002

You don't understand. It won't just "cease to generate light". It will inflate toward the planets, completely engulfing and incinerating Earth, literally vaporizing it into dust.

That is assuming that the sun will experience the same (theoretical) fate as other stars. But of all the stars which have been observed, the sun is, thus far, the only one which is known to support a planetary system and, of the nine planets it supports, the earth is the only one precisely positioned to support human life.

I'm not interested in speculations and theories about something that might happen several billion years from now. I am interested in facts which confirm faith and faith which is confirmed in facts; and the facts stated above cannot be dismissed as mere cosmic coincidence.

Caedmon · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
That is assuming that the sun will experience the same (theoretical) fate as other stars. But of all the stars which have been observed, the sun is, thus far, the only one which is known to support a planetary system and, of the nine planets it supports, the earth is the only one precisely positioned to support human life.

The Sun is different just because Earth supports life? Earth having the ability to support life and having a surrounding planetary system do not affect any characteristic of the Sun. Earth is able to support life because of it's orbit's distance from the Sun. And a planetary system potentially capable of supporting life isn't unique to our Sun. Look at these sites:
Extrasolar Earth-like Planets
Extrasolar Life Potential
Planetary Systems
Extrasolar Planets

I'm not interested in speculations and theories about something that might happen several billion years from now. I am interested in facts which confirm faith and faith which is confirmed in facts; and the facts stated above cannot be dismissed as mere cosmic coincidence.

So if something doesn't confirm your faith, it's rubbish? Tell that to Galileo and Copernicus.

Astronomy and the Preterists

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