Hebrew Yeshua vs. Greek Jesus

DanielRB · Feb 2, 2006

Shalom all, :wave:

I was wondering if anyone has read Nehimiah Gordon's book of this title and if they have an opinion on it. The writer is a Karaite Jew, not a believer in Yeshua, but he does believe that Yeshua taught obedience to Torah but spoke strongly against the traditions of the Rabbis. He basis his analysis on Shem-Tov's Hebrew version of Matthew.

In Messiah,

Daniel

insaneinthebrain · Feb 2, 2006

You'd be best to avoid it. It would be an excellent textual analysis if the version of Shem-Tov he was using was the only one in existence, but it's not. To be blunt, Gordon is just furthering an agenda at the cost of accuracy.

L.A.W. · Feb 2, 2006

I have never heard of the book nor read it, but just from your briefing, I can understand. Some Jews do not believe Yahushua is the Messiah, but they do acknowledge him as a prophet and one who sincerely taught the truth of the Torah opposing the tradition of the pharisees.

The truth is, Yahushua is the birth name of the Messiah. Jesus is the english transliterated version. Yahushua means Yahuhveh saves.

The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or </I>Joshua</I>, or again Jehoshua, meaning "Jehovah is salvation." (from the origin of the name jesus christ)

In any case, understand that the letter 'J' didn't exist until some 400 years ago. So in truth, Johoshua, Joshua, or Jeshua should be spelled Yohoshua, Yoshua, or Yeshua. However, it gets more technical with the spelling of the name. As opposed with the spelling of Yah and Yeh. It is important to note the difference as the spelling has the effect of different pronounciation and thus the meaning of the names are different. visit http://www.geocities.com/liveprayer24/names2.htm for a more indepth study of the difference between Yah and Yeh.

Yovel · Feb 3, 2006

Don't you just love it when Christians try to tell Messianics how to pronounce Yeshua? :scratch:

Wags · Feb 3, 2006

Yeshua means "Salvation" - which is different than "YHVH saves".

In other words Joshua and Jesus are not the same name.

Espada · Feb 4, 2006

L.A.W. said:
I have never heard of the book nor read it, but just from your briefing, I can understand. Some Jews do not believe Yahushua is the Messiah, but they do acknowledge him as a prophet and one who sincerely taught the truth of the Torah opposing the tradition of the pharisees.

The truth is, Yahushua is the birth name of the Messiah. Jesus is the english transliterated version. Yahushua means Yahuhveh saves.

The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or </I>Joshua</I>, or again Jehoshua, meaning "Jehovah is salvation." (from the origin of the name jesus christ)

In any case, understand that the letter 'J' didn't exist until some 400 years ago. So in truth, Johoshua, Joshua, or Jeshua should be spelled Yohoshua, Yoshua, or Yeshua. However, it gets more technical with the spelling of the name. As opposed with the spelling of Yah and Yeh. It is important to note the difference as the spelling has the effect of different pronounciation and thus the meaning of the names are different. visit http://www.geocities.com/liveprayer24/names2.htm for a more indepth study of the difference between Yah and Yeh.

I would just like to add to that that even when J did exist it was pronounced Y in English, much like modern Dutch.

The first person to use Iesous (Ie is pron Y) Christos appears to have been Paul who just got as close as he could to the Hebrew but Greek had no 'sh' sound. Christos is just a straight translation.

From there it is just linguistic changes that brought about Jesus.

Contrary to what I am told by my Rabbi, the change from Yacov to James follows a similar line and is absolutely nothing to do with the KJV as she suggested. Proof of this can be found in the Wycliffe Bible written some 60 years before the KJV.

baraqemet · Feb 4, 2006

Wags:

Yeshua means "Salvation" - which is different than "YHVH saves".

In other words Joshua and Jesus are not the same name.

baraqemet:

Actually, it is Yeshuah (feminine noun) that means "salvation"

Yeshua is a masculine noun that means "He saves" (referring to YHWH), because it is a shortened form of Yehoshua (truncated form of theophoric element Yeho)

baraqemet · Feb 4, 2006

double post - sorry

baraqemet · Feb 4, 2006

Wags:
In other words Joshua and Jesus are not the same name.

baraqemet:
Joshua (Yoshua) Would be the shortened form of Yehoshua (theophoric element truncated)
Jesus (from Iesus/Iesous/Yeshua) would also be a shortened form of Yehoshua.
I believe that both would have the same meaning (He saves)

Servant4Yeshuah · Feb 5, 2006

Yovel said:
Don't you just love it when Christians try to tell Messianics how to pronounce Yeshua?

I thought we all were Christians, No? :scratch:

Seriously though, the dialogue has been interesting...

plum · Feb 5, 2006

Christians as in followers of Messiah? You bet! Many MEssianic believers don't take the lable of "Christian" because it denotes a lack of Jewish flavor, roots, worship, and understanding. In fact, to some, the label "Christian" gives truly anti-semitic implications which can hinder someone's coming to know the Messiah. We are all family; that's right

DanielRB · Feb 6, 2006

Shalom All :wave:

,

Although this discussion on the pronounciation oand meaning of Yeshua/Yehoshua/Yahshua is very interesting, it is actually not the main thrust of the book by Nehimiah Gordon. Godron's argument is that the Hebrew text of Matthew indicates that Yeshua (a) supported Torah and (b) was against Rabbinic traditions. They key text that he looks at is found in Matthew 21:

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on peoples shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:1-11, ESV)

In the Greek text, v 2 is preserved as saying "...so practice and observe whatever they tell you...", indicating that Yeshua supported Rabbinic traditions. However, in the particular version of the Hebrew text that Gordon looked at, the reading is "...so practice and observe whatever he [meaning Moses] tells you..."

This seems to answer a lot of questions, if true. For example, why would Yeshua condemn Rabbinic traditions in Matthew 15, but here seemly support them?

If Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, Gordon indicates that the change from "he" to "they" could be easily explained as a scribal error (due to the similarity of the words), but the change from "he" to "they" is a little more difficult in Greek (where the words are less similar).

Any way, my post was really about this, and not about the difference between the names "Jesus" and "Yeshua".

In Messiah,

Daniel

insaneinthebrain · Feb 6, 2006

I know there are mixed feelings about Tim Hegg around here, but here's an article where he takes Gordon to school over Matthew 23:3: http://torahresource.com/English Articles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

DanielRB · Feb 6, 2006

insaneinthebrain said:
I know there are mixed feelings about Tim Hegg around here, but here's an article where he takes Gordon to school over Matthew 23:3: http://torahresource.com/English Articles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Hi Insaneinthebrain, thanks for your post, :wave:

I read this paper, as well as Gordon's response and the rejoinder. I guess I think that the ways Hegg tries to support Yeshua supporting Rabbinic traditions seems a bit of a stretch. I also think that using a minority witness to support an interpretation (like Gordon does) is, in itself, also a stretch.

I guess "at the end of the day", I believe that the basic thrust of the gospels suggests that we should trust Moses and Yeshua, and not automatically give authority to anything beyond that which is written.

Shalom,

Daniel

insaneinthebrain · Feb 6, 2006

DanielRB said:
I guess "at the end of the day", I believe that the basic thrust of the gospels suggests that we should trust Moses and Yeshua, and not automatically give authority to anything beyond that which is written.

I can agree with this. I just hate to see anyone supporting Gordon or his "partner in crime" Michael Rood, as they're both the spiritual equivalent of snake oil salesmen.

Servant4Yeshuah · Feb 6, 2006

missju said:
Christians as in followers of Messiah? You bet! Many MEssianic believers don't take the lable of "Christian" because it denotes a lack of Jewish flavor, roots, worship, and understanding. In fact, to some, the label "Christian" gives truly anti-semitic implications which can hinder someone's coming to know the Messiah. We are all family; that's right

Yes...I understand you. I was thinking tongue in cheek. However, with Yeshuah being a Jew, I don't see the lack in the wonderful roots..Christ is a title, that is the Annointed One...

Titles and words...hmm I used the term Christian because i don't like being tied to any denomination...only to Yeshuah...

I guess I am spinning my dreidals..Oy.... (oh and don't get mad. I am messianic too...one of the Sephardim, due to the Spanish/Moorish ancestry thingy..)

Seriously, don't take me too seriously on this. The last thing I want is to enter any debate on what to call me. Without Yeshuah I would be lost...just call me His.

visionary · Feb 7, 2006

For many, Christian as a term has been a blanket for so many that it has lost the flavor of the original owner. I like to think of myself as a beliver, which then leads one to find out what type, and thereby giving me the opportunity to witness about my faith. Then if they want to say I am Christian, they can knowing my distinctions.

Tishri1 · Feb 7, 2006

Yovel said:
Don't you just love it when Christians try to tell Messianics how to pronounce Yeshua?

yeh but that's how the Jews feel about us telling them their business too...I think it's sweet.

L.A.W. · Mar 7, 2008

What makes you a christian? What makes you a messianic? Blindness is all.

Yahushua is the name of the Messiah. He came in the father's name who is Yahuah.

Yeshuah is a derogatory version of Yahushua used by unbelievers in the first and second century. The root word of Yeshuah is Yeshu which means, may his name be blotted out. This is the root word of the english contemporary Jesus.

However, Jesus is pagan as so is god. Call the elohim of Israel not by pagan names. If you love him, then deny yourself and walk in him with your heart and mind.

Henaynei · Mar 8, 2008

sacred namer alert

Hebrew Yeshua vs. Greek Jesus

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