Destruction of the Second Temple

DanielRB

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Shalom All, :wave:

I've been pondering the meaning of the destruction of the Second Temple. It seems to me that reading through the Tanakh that YHWH always warned his people through prophets before punishing them for their sin. I can't think that the destruction of the Second Temple also was proceeded by warnings by God's prophets.

This to me is probably the single most important bit of evidence that Yashua was sent by God (as well as his cousin Yohanan). YHWH didn't just let the Temple be destroyed for the heck of it; he always has his reasons.

How do non-Messianic Jews generally explain the destruction of the Second Temple?

In Messiah,

Daniel
 

Talmidah

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sinat chinam-baseless hatred among all the Jewish factions of the time.

But Daniel, since Jesus died around 30 C.E., and the Temple was not destroyed until 70 C.E., how does that make it the biggest evidence for Jesus being messiah/God?

(I am only asking and will not argue/debate with any answer)
 
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DanielRB

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Talmidah said:
sinat chinam-baseless hatred among all the Jewish factions of the time.

But Daniel, since Jesus died around 30 C.E., and the Temple was not destroyed until 70 C.E., how does that make it the biggest evidence for Jesus being messiah/God?

(I am only asking and will not argue/debate with any answer)

Shalom, Talmidah, :wave:

I think that YHWH always has sent prophets before his judgment falls. Remember, many of the prophets in the Tanakh lived long before the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE (such as Isaiah), so I don't think that forty years is too long to wait before a prophecy is fulfilled. If YHWH did not send his prophets before the destruction in 70 CE, why not? (Like you, I'm not trying to debate--I myself have struggled with this issue back and forth).

Daniel
 
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Talmidah

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(Just more questions) Would there not be a more defined causal link (ie...you rejected Me and had Me murdered when I was on earth in the form of a human so now I'm going to cause the Temple to be destroyed)? Another question...I've read on many messianic sites about how the number of Jewish christians rose dramatically in the time after Jesus' death. If this is so, could not the destruction of the Temple be a punishment to the people of Israel because of those who fell away from God and Torah and fell into worshipping a man?

EDIT TO ADD: Shalom Daniel! :wave:
 
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DanielRB

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Talmidah said:
(Just more questions) Would there not be a more defined causal link (ie...you rejected Me and had Me murdered when I was on earth in the form of a human so now I'm going to cause the Temple to be destroyed)? Another question...I've read on many messianic sites about how the number of Jewish christians rose dramatically in the time after Jesus' death. If this is so, could not the destruction of the Temple be a punishment to the people of Israel because of those who fell away from God and Torah and fell into worshipping a man?

EDIT TO ADD: Shalom Daniel! :wave:

Hi Talmidah, :wave:

Excellent question! The question is one of causation. If we believe that the destruction of the Temple was brought about as punishment by YHWH (and not just a "natural" consequence of superior Roman military might), what was the cause? Was it because of the national leadership's rejection of Yahshua as Messiah, or because of the people's acceptance (and the failure of the national leadership to deal with it)? Or something else entirely (such as hatred).

Certainly a lot to ponder....

Shalom,

Daniel
 
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Yahudim

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HaNotsri said:
Talmidah is correct, sinas chinam was the reason why the Beis haMikdosh was destroyed

Shalom all,

While I agree that it was a contributing factor, I do not see it as the primary cause. I find it interesting that no one has mentioned that 40 years is generally a time of probation and testing in scripture; this being the length of time between His execution and the destruction.

On the subject of sinas chinam, shortly before his execution Yeshua said, "If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfil what is written in their Law: ‘they hated me without reason’"(John 15:23-25; Psalm 69: 4). And make no mistake. Yeshua fulfilled all prophecies concerning the Messiah.

Also in His office as a prophet, Yeshua called the children of Israel to repentance and prophesied the Temple's destruction:
  • Mat 24:1 Yeshua went out from the temple, and was going on his way. His talmidim came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.
  • Mat 24:2 But he answered them, "Don't you see all of these things? Most certainly I tell you, there will not be left here one stone on another, that will not be thrown down."
  • Mar 13:1 As he went out of the temple, one of his talmidim said to him, "Rabbi, see what kind of stones and what kind of buildings!"
  • Mar 13:2 Yeshua said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
  • Luk 21:5 As some were talking about the temple and how it was decorated with beautiful stones and gifts, he said,
  • Luk 21:6 "As for these things which you see, the days will come, in which there will not be left here one stone on another that will not be thrown down."
Sinas chinam - ‘they hated me without reason’ is certainly present in the context presented, yet the causal link to the destruction of the Temple isn't. I have always thought that the prophecy of it's destruction was rooted elsewhere in scripture.
  • Joh 14:6 Yeshua said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
In this, Yeshua foretold the destruction of the Temple. By this statement, Yeshua was foretelling of His soon ascending to the office of the Cohen Gadol. He would soon begin to minister from the Temple in heaven. As it is explained in the book of Hebrews, a change was necessary. Considering His sacrifice, ahavat chinam is more likely the causal link to the destruction of the Temple.
 
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HaNotsri

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Just because I thought some people would be interested, I have posted the aggadic portion of the Gemara and the Mishnah that the Gemara is speaking of about the destruction of the Beis haMikdosh and all of Yerushalayim. You'll see that there were a few characters involved, but each senselessly hated the other (including an unrighteous rabbi). I also included a portion of how Nero (who incidentally persecuted Christians relentlessly) became a Jew. If you read the rest of the Gemara, it outlines much in the history that followed during this period. Very interesting read.

Talmud Gittin 55b

Gittin55b3.jpg


MISHNAH. THERE WAS NO SICARICON IN JUDEA FOR THOSE KILLED IN WAR. AS FROM [THE TERMINATION OF] THE SLAUGHTER OF THE WAR THERE HAS BEEN SICARICON THERE. HOW DOES THIS RULE APPLY? IF A MAN BUYS A FIELD FROM THE SICARICON AND THEN BUYS IT AGAIN FROM THE ORIGINAL OWNER, HIS PURCHASE IS VOID, BUT IF HE BUYS IT FIRST FROM THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THEN FROM THE SICARICON IT IS VALID. IF A MAN BUYS [A PIECE OF A MARRIED WOMAN'S PROPERTY]15 FROM THE HUSBAND AND THEN BUYS IT AGAIN FROM THE WIFE, THE PURCHASE IS VOID, BUT IF HE BUYS IT FIRST FROM THE WIFE AND THEN FROM THE HUSBAND IT IS VALID. THIS WAS [THE RULING] OF THE FIRST MISHNAH. THE SUCCEEDING BETH DIN, HOWEVER, LAID DOWN THAT IF A MAN BUYS PROPERTY FROM THE SICARICON HE HAD TO GIVE THE ORIGINAL OWNER A QUARTER [OF THE VALUE]. THIS, HOWEVER, IS ONLY THE CASE WHEN THE ORIGINAL OWNER IS NOT IN A POSITION TO BUY IT HIMSELF, BUT IF HE IS HE HAS THE RIGHT OF PRE-EMPTION. RABBI ASSEMBLED A BETH DIN AND THEY DECIDED BY VOTE THAT IF THE PROPERTY HAD BEEN IN THE HANDS OF THE SICARICON TWELVE MONTHS, WHOSOEVER FIRST PURCHASED IT ACQUIRED THE TITLE, BUT HE HAD TO GIVE A QUARTER [OF THE PRICE] TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER.


GEMARA. If there was no sicaricon for those killed in the war is it possible that there should have been after the termination of the war? — Rab Judah said: It means that the rule of sicaricon was not applied. For R. Assi has stated: They [the Roman Government] issued three successive decrees. The first was that whoever did not kill [a Jew on finding him] should himself be put to death. The second was that whoever killed [a Jew] should pay four zuz. The last was that whoever killed a Jew should himself be put to death. Hence in the first two [periods], [the Jew], being in danger of his life, would determine to transfer his property [to the sicaricon] but in the last [period] he would say to himself, Let him take it today; tomorrow I will sue him for it.
R. Johanan said: What is illustrative of the verse, Happy is the man that feareth alway, but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief? The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza; the destruction of Tur Malka came through a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and a hen; the destruction of Bethar came through the shaft of a leather. The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza in this way. A certain man had a friend Kamza and an enemy Bar Kamza. He once made a party and said to his servant, Go and bring Kamza. The man went and brought Bar Kamza. When the man [who gave the party] found him there he said, See, you tell tales about me; what are you doing here? Get out. Said the other: Since I am here, let me stay, and I will pay you for whatever I eat and drink.

Talmud Gittin 56a

Gittin56a3.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/eireannach_scailte/Gittin56a3.jpg


He said, I won't. Then let me give you half the cost of the party. No, said the other. Then let me pay for the whole party. He still said, No, and he took him by the hand and put him out. Said the other, Since the Rabbis were sitting there and did not stop him, this shows that they agreed with him. I will go and inform against then, to the Government. He went and said to the Emperor, The Jews are rebelling against you. He said, How can I tell? He said to him: Send them an offering and see whether they will offer it [on the altar]. So he sent with him a fine calf. While on the way he made a blemish on its upper lip, or as some say on the white of its eye, in a place where we [Jews] count it a blemish but they do not. The Rabbis were inclined to offer it in order not to offend the Government. Said R. Zechariah b. Abkulas to them: People will say that blemished animals are offered on the altar. They then proposed to kill Bar Kamza so that he should not go and inform against them, but R. Zechariah b. Abkulas said to them, Is one who makes a blemish on consecrated animals to be put to death? R. Johanan thereupon remarked: Through the scrupulousness of R. Zechariah b. Abkulas our House has been destroyed, our Temple burnt and we ourselves exiled from our land.

He [the Emperor] sent against them Nero the Caesar. As he was coming he shot an arrow towards the east, and it fell in Jerusalem. He then shot one towards the west, and it again fell in Jerusalem. He shot towards all four points of the compass, and each time it fell in Jerusalem. He said to a certain boy: Repeat to me [the last] verse of Scripture you have learnt. He said: And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel. He said: The Holy One, blessed be He, desires to lay waste his House and to lay the blame on me. So he ran away and became a proselyte, and R. Meir was descended from him.

Hope that was informative!

In Christ,

Michael
 
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visionary

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THERE'S A REVIEW in Brin Mawr Classical Review of:


Menachem Mor, Aharon Oppenheimer, Jack Pastor, Daniel R. Schwartz, Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land in the Days of the Second Temple, the Mishna and the Talmud. Jerusalem: 2003. Pp. 200. ISBN 965-217-205-7.
Reviewed by Matthew Kraus.
 
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DanielRB

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Shalom all :wave:

Another thing that should be considered in all of this: Eusebius records that the believers in Jerusalem saw in a vision that they should leave the city before the seige began, and moved to Pella.

Now, Eusebuis may or may not be accurate, but if it is true that believers in Yeshua left Jerusalem and were not caught up in the calamaty of the the war in 70 CE, it would indicate that if the destruction of the temple was a judgment of God, the it would be strange if that judgment was against the nation for tolerating those who accepted Yeshua as Messiah--if the believers themselves were not destroyed along with the temple.

Still, I don't think there's a black-and-white answer, except through the eyes of faith.

Daniel
 
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DanielRB

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visionary said:
Was Steven an example of this type of toleration?

Shalom visionary, :wave:

The reaction to followers of the Way was mixed. In some cases, they were killed, like Stephen, James the brother of John and later James the brother of Yeshua. However, many thousands converted (even some priests), and yet not thousands were killed. Some undoubtably followed Gamaliel's advice rather than persecuting them.

Still, see my later post about what Eusebius says. If the early believers were not destroyed with the temple, but were able to escape, then it doesn't seem logical that they were the reason for the temple's destruction.

In Messiah,

Daniel
 
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DanielRB

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visionary said:
Is there any other prophecy of the destruction of the temple other than Yeshua's?

Excellent question, Visionary! That's pretty much my point: God warns his people before carrying out his justice. Yeshua prophesied about the destruction because of the rejection of his Messiahship. Is there any record of another prophet--or even a scholar just reading the words of Moses about the pnishment from God from failing to follow Torah--that said something like "Look out! God is going to judge this temple and city because of hatred among all Jews!"

I must admit that some Messianic prophecies as interpreted by believers (even as interpreted by the New Testament) aren't particularly convincing to me. But the destruction of Jerusalem seems to be a powerful statement.

In Messiah,

Daniel
 
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HaNotsri

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24 "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator."
 
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DanielRB

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HaNotsri said:
24 "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator."

Thanks for posting this, HaNotsri.

Daniel's prophecy is another interesting one. What are some thoughts about what it means--outside of the traditional Christian interpretation? What is the traditional Jewish interpretation?

Shalom,

Daniel
 
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