Originally posted by BigEd
ok so according to full preterist belifes, everything in the bible has been fufilled, form genesis to revelation.. so looking at the above passage.. so the new jerusalem is here.
In the passage John states there will be no sea....there still is a sea.
Hi Ed, thanks for joining in.
First, it might help to understand that another term for preterism is "Covenant eschatology". Preterists believe that the "last days, end times", etc, were the "last days, and end times" of the Old Covenant, not the physical universe.
So, viewing Revelation 21 "Covenantally" as I do, I realize that it is depicting realities that were unavailable in the Old Covenant "heavens and earth", that were manifest when the New Covenant "heavens and earth" were finally consumated.
Your statement that preterists believe all
prophesy has been fulfilled is somewhat misinformed. Preterists believe all "eschatology" has been fulfilled, but we recognize that there are still prophesies that continue to unfold and be fulfilled on a daily basis, into the future.
Do you understand the difference?
Now, On to your points. I will take them one at a time, devoting a single post to each point.
1) there will be no more sea
First, I think we should realize how the Bible uses sea. Of course John drew many of his metaphors and apocalyptic language from the rest of the Bible.
It would seem inconsistent to suddenly interprate the first verse of Revelation 21 in polar opposite fashion to the way we interprate the exact same language everywhere else in scripture. Wouldn't you agree?
Consider these uses of sea and those to whom it refers:
Isaiah 60:1-5 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. {2} For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. {3} And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. {4} Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. {5} Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
"Sea" here, is obviously referring to the Gentiles. This passage speaks of a uniting of Gentiles and Israelites. This is remarkably similar to Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; {12} That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: {13} But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. {14} For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {17} And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. {18} For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. {19} Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
The Psalmist speaks of the prophecy that God would gather the Israelites that were scattered among the nations or the sea:
Psalms 68:22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:
The Psalmist also makes a distinction between the sea versus those upon the earth:
Psalms 65:5 By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea:
It is interesting here how the Psalmist describes those upon the sea as "afar off." That is how Paul describes the Gentiles in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Even Ezekiel prophesies of the time when the living waters would flow to the Gentiles:
Ezekiel 48:8-10 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. {9} The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth. {10} And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.
Daniel describes the four beasts (Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and Rome) as the beasts of the sea:
Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Zephaniah pronounces a woe against the nations:
Zephaniah 2:5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.
Of course Zechariah predicts the reign of Messiah to cover the world:
Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], and upon a colt the foal of an [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. {10} And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah says:
Isaiah 24:14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea
Israel was scattered among the nations,
her enemies that were described by the prophets as the sea or the seas Throughout her physical existence Israel was plagued by the seas, particularly after being taken captive into Babylon. Israel began to trust in the nations for her protection rather than God. She trusted in the very enemies that she hated. There was always division between her and the nations, yet so often she feared the power of the nations to take her into captivity and destroy her.
In Revelation Israel (i.e. Jerusalem) was that great harlot who trusted nations rather than God. She forsook her Husband. The Bible describes Israel as the harlot sitting upon many waters. These waters were the seas or the nations in whom she trusted:
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Once we are able to see the division that existed between Israel and the nations and her constant fear of being destroyed by the nations, then we will be able to appreciate the fact that God predicted a time when the Gentiles would come to believe in the God of Israel and that as Isaiah predicted, they would flow together:
Isaiah 60:4-5 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. {5} Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
According to Paul, there would be no more distinction between Israel and the nations:
Colossians 3:10-11 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: {11} Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The citizens of this nation would all be one in Christ Jesus. Indeed, they would all rule as God-they would be the Israel of God. In this land there would be no more Gentiles:
Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
There would be no more strangers or Gentiles in this land. There would be no more sea. It would be a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein would dwell righteousness. The union would be those in Christ Jesus, thus there would be no more
sea, see?
Please reply with any questions before I move on to address
your next point "no more death"
Preace in Christ,
P70
