tolerance?

ThienAn

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What's this I hear about Christians should be tolerant of this & Christians should be tolerant of that? Where does the bible says that Christians have to be tolerant of anything? If someone tells me to be patient, humble, kind, loving, righteous & compassionate, that I'll be; because that's what the bible teaches. But tolerant? That's a man's word not God's.

If anyone should throw a book at Christians, might as well make it the bible, because if it ain't, we'll dodge it. :p
 

Defender of the Faith 777

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We need to turn the other cheek and accept any humiliation, worrying only how the Father sees us. Jesus Christ being very, very, very, very, very, very tolerant for the rest of His life after the last supper. (His first life on Earth that is!, not the second)
 
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ThienAn

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I think in today's termonology, tolerance means to keep quiet about your own belief eventhough you think/know that the other person's belief is wrong.

I think this is the time when we stand out and shout aloud about God and His grace that is available for all and not worry about how offensive we might be to a non-believer.
 
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Blackhawk

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"I think in today's termonology, tolerance means to keep quiet about your own belief eventhough you think/know that the other person's belief is wrong."

I think that is close. I think though that people are happy that YOU found something that YOU can believe in but they do not want you tell them that they are wrong. So I can say I love God but I should not push my views on anyone else. I should not force my morality on you. That is what tolerance means in the U.S. today. You do your thing and I will do mine and we will say all are equally correct and okay.

Now I think this is hogwash. It is dishonest and it pushes religion and Christinaity into a nonimportant issue.
And why do they tell us that the most important questions of our lives should be so unimportant? Because they hav a religous view that all faiths will go to the same God. So why not just pick the one you like best. eh? It is that whole "God came to us in many different ways" Esoteric garbage.

But the problem with all this is if this God did that then He has a multiple personality disorder or He is very evil. But God is not this way. Jesus said He was the only way to God. And that "...No one comes to the Father except through Me." I think that is pretty clear.

Okay I rambled some but this kind of "tolerance" really gets my goat. I hate it and I think it shows how intellectually decayed we are today.

blackhawk
 
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Originally posted by Blackhawk
And why do they tell us that the most important questions of our lives should be so unimportant? Because they hav a religous view that all faiths will go to the same God. So why not just pick the one you like best. eh? It is that whole "God came to us in many different ways" Esoteric garbage.

Probably because humanity has a long and established history of committing genocide over religious beliefs.

Religious tolerance is our way of protecting each individual's right to believe as they want without worrying about being killed for it.

Americans are in a very special country because of the separation of church and state create by the founding fathers. If you doubt that, take a look at the level of religious violence in other countries.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Blackhawk

I think that is close. I think though that people are happy that YOU found something that YOU can believe in but they do not want you tell them that they are wrong. So I can say I love God but I should not push my views on anyone else. I should not force my morality on you. That is what tolerance means in the U.S. today. You do your thing and I will do mine and we will say all are equally correct and okay.

I don't think it's that everyone else is equally correct - but rather, that everyone loses when we spend all our time fighting about things none of us can really prove to each other.

Furthermore, if we don't pay some attention to whether or not we're offending people, guess what, *we are driving them from Christ*.

No one has ever converted to Christianity, thinking "Wow! I always wanted to be that kind of jerk, but my existing belief system requires me to be kind to my neighbors. Christianity is way cooler."

I would also point out that many issues on which tolerance is a good thing are issues on which good, honest, Christians apparently end up disagreeing. We can argue over what this tells us about God forever... but in the end, we don't *know* who's right on most of these issues.

I think it's important to take a stand for what you think is right, and state your case... but beyond that, moral issues are, in the end, between an individual and God, and the rest of us don't get a vote. The only time we get to get involved is when we see damage being done to innocent bystanders.
 
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Because they hav a religous view that all faiths will go to the same God. So why not just pick the one you like best. eh? It is that whole "God came to us in many different ways" Esoteric garbage.

I agree. From my study of the various religions, they all believe they either have "the truth" or at least a "better way" over another religion. If all paths lead to the same destination (God), then this one God is inconsistent and contradictory as evidenced in the contradictory truth claims of the various world religions. Thus this supposed one God does not reveal truth. If you ask someone if their religion teaches untruth I believe they will exphatically say no, but since what one religion believes contradicts another on significant points then someone's belief is in error. They all cannot be correct.

Furthermore, if we don't pay some attention to whether or not we're offending people, guess what, *we are driving them from Christ*.

I agree there is some truth in this. In my opinion we have to approach people with the gospel of Christianity in a loving way, and not cram anything down someone's throat who does not want to hear it. If they don't want to hear then it's their decision and we should be respectful and tolerant of it. However, the Christian gospel message is naturally offensive because it claims exclusivity (Islam and certain Buddhist sects do as well). As Blackhawk stated Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the Father (God) except through him. By its very nature some people are going to find it offensive if they believe all truth or what you believe is relative and up to each person to decide.

I think in today's termonology, tolerance means to keep quiet about your own belief eventhough you think/know that the other person's belief is wrong.

I think this is the time when we stand out and shout aloud about God and His grace that is available for all and not worry about how offensive we might be to a non-believer.

I agree. I think a lot of people equate being tolerant with not stating what you believe and not disagreeing with someone else's position. I also agree that we should not be ashamed of telling others about Christ. If someone feels that just bringing up the subject of Christ or religion is offensive, than all they have to do is say that don't want to hear.

Gerald
www.geocities.com/berean_315
 
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Blackhawk

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Originally posted by Ray K


Probably because humanity has a long and established history of committing genocide over religious beliefs.

Religious tolerance is our way of protecting each individual's right to believe as they want without worrying about being killed for it.

Americans are in a very special country because of the separation of church and state create by the founding fathers. If you doubt that, take a look at the level of religious violence in other countries.

I have no problem with that kind of tolrance. Unfortunately that is not what tolerance means anymore. it means that you have to accept that what they say is just as true as what you say. One thing is your truth and the other is my truth. that is just untrue. But I do not have to kill anyone just because I think that they are wrong.
 
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Blackhawk, I fully understand how you feel. While we are to keep our mouths shut and not offend anyone by telling them about their only hope for survival, the Agenda can promote homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable lifestyle. The corporation I work for is on a diversity kick, and is promoting homosexuality as a minority issue. One would not think that a company like UTC would do such a thing, or at least, I didn't think so.

RayK, you'll find "Seperation of church and state" nowhere in a document that is the foundation of this country. That was Tom Jefferson speaking to a friend in correspondence, and that particular portion of that letter, those 5 words, have been inappropriately used the last few decades to push an agenda upon the citizens of this country.

This nation was to be a Judeo-Christian nation, not a mixing bowl of religions that opposed one another. There is nothing strong about the "diversity" they are trying to get us to accept. This nation's strength came from the God we worshipped. Long before this was a wealthy or powerful country, it was a great nation. We have given up our greatness the last 40 years to become secular humanists, and now you'll see the wealth and power leave the country.

It shouldn't come as a surpirise, I wouldn't think; if the western world retained it's power wealth and influence, the antichrist would have a "hell" of a time taking world power. (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun! :sorry: ).
 
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Originally posted by TC
RayK, you'll find "Seperation of church and state" nowhere in a document that is the foundation of this country. That was Tom Jefferson speaking to a friend in correspondence, and that particular portion of that letter, those 5 words, have been inappropriately used the last few decades to push an agenda upon the citizens of this country.


Thomas Jefferson was clarifying the meaning of the 1st amendment. Since Jefferson was one of the primary authors of the Bill of Rights, his clarification certainly has legal standing.

You should be glad that we have that separation. We might have turned into another Ireland.

This nation was to be a Judeo-Christian nation, not a mixing bowl of religions that opposed one another. There is nothing strong about the "diversity" they are trying to get us to accept. This nation's strength came from the God we worshipped. Long before this was a wealthy or powerful country, it was a great nation. We have given up our greatness the last 40 years to become secular humanists, and now you'll see the wealth and power leave the country.

Oh really? Well let me use your own argument against yourself. You said: "you'll find "Seperation of church and state" nowhere in a document that is the foundation of this country"

Now, I would reply to you that "you'll not find "Bible", "Jesus", "Ten Commandments" or any other Judeo-Christian concepts anywhere in a document that is the foundation of this country"

In the 1789 Constitutional Convention in which the Bill of Rights were drawn up, there were several attempts to incorporate Judeo-Christian language into the constitution. All of these attempts were VOTED DOWN. How do you reconcile that with your assertion that "This nation was to be a Judeo-Christian nation"

In the 1797 Treaty with Tripoli, one of the clauses begins with "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."

This treaty was approved UNANIMOUSLY by Congress and signed into law by President John Adams, an upstanding Christian.

These are FACTS, not opinion. Once again, how do you reconcile that with your assertion that "This nation was to be a Judeo-Christian nation"

It shouldn't come as a surpirise, I wouldn't think; if the western world retained it's power wealth and influence, the antichrist would have a "hell" of a time taking world power. (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun! :sorry: ).

Are you saying that the power, wealth and influence of the Western world is an outgrowth of its Christian faith? Please clarify.
 
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The difference in the nation, before the agenda was initiated and now is obvious, so I don't think I have to compare the differences that have taken place the last 45 years. By the "Agenda", I mean the intentional destroying of the American fabric; socially, morally, educationally and financially.
What do I mean by Christian faith having an influence on the western world? God blessed this nation when we were followers of the Creator. He led us through difficult times, molded and guided the young nation. He used the nation to be a positive influence in the world, and blessed us in the physical sense (wealth) in return. The farther we have gone away from the nation's roots, the God fearing nation that we were, the worse off we get. The wealth has been leaving the nation, and it will continue.

The first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence should be a clue that the Fathers knew there was a God.

Ben Franklin said the only way this "experiment in society" would succeed was with Judeo Christian ethics, morals and values.

It is hard to find pluralism or atheism in the words of John Jay, the first chief justice of the Supreme Court, in his statement: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

George Washington's farewell address of 1796 deals with the issue of religion: Let us with caution indulge the suppostion that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious people."

In 1787, the year the constitution was officially approved by Congress, the Northwest Ordinance was approved by the same body. Article 3 of that ordinance states: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

The fact that we are not a "Christian" nation, such as the official "islamic" nations found in the middle east is obvious, and was never meant to be that way. As a matter of fact, nobody has ever suggested that or attempted to make such a nation. A decent study of our nation's history will cause one to understand what was the intent and purpose, and the evidence of this is how many of the first states formed. Had we been an official Christian nation, whose form of Christianity would we have taken? Would it have been the Baptists, the Methodists, or the Catholics, or maybe the Quakers? This was a lot more troubling back then than it is now, with different denominations (sects, as they were called back then) having their churches side by side in communities today, and totally different colonies/ states in our beginning. Declaring in the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," was a necessity for the various Christian denominations to be able to live together.

For almost 200 years, Congress opened with a prayer (still does), the 10 commandments were posted in the courtrooms and schools, and God was frequently invoked in presidential speeches.

By the way, for any trivia buffs, today, when the judge enters the courtroom, the bailiff commands "All rise". Today, you stand because you are directed to stand in honor of a man, in the beginning of the custom, you would have stood because the judge entered with the Holy Bible in hand, held up high. You stood because the Word of God entered.

How is an oath ended, sealing your word to it under penalty if violated? "So help me God".
 
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Originally posted by TC
What do I mean by Christian faith having an influence on the western world? God blessed this nation when we were followers of the Creator. He led us through difficult times, molded and guided the young nation. He used the nation to be a positive influence in the world, and blessed us in the physical sense (wealth) in return. The farther we have gone away from the nation's roots, the God fearing nation that we were, the worse off we get. The wealth has been leaving the nation, and it will continue.

And that is why the country is now more powerful, wealthy and infuential than it has ever been in its 200+ year history? :scratch:

The democratic and capitalist ideology of the United States has won over most of the world. How are we worse off?

The first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence should be a clue that the Fathers knew there was a God.

Yes, "Nature's God".

That is the characteristic language of deists. Thomas Jefferson was a deist and he rejected Christianity and other revelatory religions, believing that the use of reason was the proper way to deduce the characteristics of "Nature's God".


The fact that we are not a "Christian" nation, such as the official "islamic" nations found in the middle east is obvious, and was never meant to be that way. As a matter of fact, nobody has ever suggested that or attempted to make such a nation. A decent study of our nation's history will cause one to understand what was the intent and purpose, and the evidence of this is how many of the first states formed. Had we been an official Christian nation, whose form of Christianity would we have taken? Would it have been the Baptists, the Methodists, or the Catholics, or maybe the Quakers? This was a lot more troubling back then than it is now, with different denominations (sects, as they were called back then) having their churches side by side in communities today, and totally different colonies/ states in our beginning. Declaring in the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," was a necessity for the various Christian denominations to be able to live together.

Cool. So we are in agreement.

For almost 200 years, Congress opened with a prayer (still does), the 10 commandments were posted in the courtrooms and schools, and God was frequently invoked in presidential speeches.
 
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Creator=God
Natural Law=God's Law. God created natural law as well as spiritual law. The Diests do not have a monopoly on that wording.
Tom was a Diest, no doubt in my mind or yours, but he was only one of the Fathers, and even he understood why Judeo-Christian ethics and morality was necessary for this nation.
This nation is as wealthy as it has ever been? The nation has been selling assets to overseas investors for years. The economics prof. said that is ok as we have plenty, but I see heritage being sold.
We have won over most of the world? Don't buy that propaganda bull-hockey; we haven't won over the world; the world is fed up with our rudderless selves. While our corporations ensure U.S. hegomony, our international policy is wishy-washy. We show no moral strength and character as a nation now. Third world nations blame us for their woes, and collectively, through the United Nations, demand that we support them. Since we no longer even own our sovereignty anymore as it was signed over to the U.N., an organization that has shown over and again that it is no friend of the U.S., we are legally in a bad situation. When you give up your own individual rights to join in a communal club, you have to abide by the rules.
Check the stats between the perversion of the constitution and before. Check how dramatically the figures for divorce, violent crime, extramarital affairs, out of wedlock co-habitation and children children, drug usage and sexually transmitted diseases climbed after the politically motivated Supreme Court of 1962 took it upon themselves to re-define the first amendment.

The facts are plenty loud enough, the truth is irrefutable - as long as there are still some of us alive that know the truth. The Agenda has made it a point to rewrite history, but here is the truth. This is what the Supreme Court said in 1892 after reviewing hundreds of volumes of historical documents (take note that this after Tripoli): "These references, add a volume of of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a religious people - a Christian nation."
This was reviewed in 1931 by Supreme Court Justice George Sutherland in reference to another case at which time he said that Americans are "Christian people", and again in 1952, by Justice William O. Douglas, who affirmed that "we are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."

There are alot of things about which I'm ignorant, but I have made it my point the last decade or so to understand my nation's heritage. I want to know the value of something that they are desperately trying to steal from me and my family. I know its value. I know why it is being stolen. Satan hates the nation as it used to be, and wants to ensure the destruction of it.
 
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seebs

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TC: The statistics don't tell us anything, until we can isolate them from all the other changes in the world - for instance, the period during which we defined ourselves in opposition to communism, or the widespread adoption of "fundamentalist" Christianity by many people, or the effects of computers, or cars, or mass production... We can't tell.

I don't believe in this "Agenda" conspiracy thing.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Lessee, Rabbi Menachem Mendl of Kotzk (18th century) says: "Just as we accept that our neighbor's face does not resemble ours, so too must we accept that his views do not resemble ours."

Life is way too short to get all overheated about just about everything.

Our Sages note that, "Good manners preceeded the Torah." Being convinced that one is right does not give one a license to be rude, pushy or arrogant.

Be well!

ssv

"And the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit." [Ecclesiastes 7:7]
 
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Originally posted by seebs
TC: The statistics don't tell us anything, until we can isolate them from all the other changes in the world - for instance, the period during which we defined ourselves in opposition to communism, or the widespread adoption of "fundamentalist" Christianity by many people, or the effects of computers, or cars, or mass production... We can't tell.

I don't believe in this "Agenda" conspiracy thing.

Well, the statistics in general tell us that suicide, teen pregnancy, crime, etc are down.

Also, slavery is down 100%
 
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Seebs, that is very true. As they say, polls don't lie but liars poll!
However, in this case, it is very coincidental that Shortly after the assualt on America's traditional values began, the rips in our social fabric really started appearing. I'll put up a few if you'd like.
The interesting thing is in 1962, when the Supreme Court decided to repudiate over a century and a half of Suprme Court rulings? Well, here is another statistic, but 8 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices on the 62-63 Supreme Court had been appointed to Court following an extended history of political rather than judicial experience. Only one objected to the removal of the Bible and prayer from schools, for example, Justice Potter Stewart, and he had extensive federal Constitutional experience prior to appointment.
You may not believe that there has been an agenda to destroy this nation, but there has. At least to destroy it as we new it. The judges are picked because of political affiliation and whether they will further there cause of a team's agenda, not because of their judicial ability. While there has been alot of resistance to the change a strong minority wanted in this country, they found a way to change law and policy by using the courts illegally and immorally.
It'll all be allright, though. As long as our 401(k)'s and cable T.V. isn't taken, right?
 
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