How Christ completed our salvation.

Futurists go to amazing lengths and have many elaborate devices to try defend their view of end time events. One such device is name calling. Another elaborate device is to try to discredit the Preterist view of scripture.

There are those among us who seek to blunt the edge of truth. This tactic is used to conceal the second coming of Christ with complete salvation. It looks like the opponents of preterism want to steal Biblical understanding away from the saints by telling them salvation was complected at the cross.

Although salvation was completed before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20). It had to be worked out over time. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18). Notice here that Paul says they are being saved.

When we teach covenantal eschatology we are challenging people to rightly divide the word of Truth. It takes some spiritual maturity to be able to answer that challenge. Understanding the fullness of salvation requires a discerning mind. It requires seeing what Scripture says; it also requires seeing what it doesn't say.

Inspired men wrote the New Testament between the cross and the return of Christ in glory in A.D.70. They were embryonic sons in a halfway house as were all Christian of that first century period. They know they hadn't received all that was to be theirs at the cross and their writings reflected that truth. Peter writes of the complete salvation that will be revealed in the last time.

It is the ‘last time' of the old Jewish world and Peter writes years after the event of the cross. Who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) Imagine that! God has the funny idea that his work through Jesus Christ was not complected at the cross . Can you imagine the blind spot men must have when refusing to see that what is clearly written in the Bible? (This is not Peter's opinion, this is inspired writ, i.e., God's opinion).

Consider these verses. Paul persuades saints to the closeness of the Lord's coming and the fulness of salvation for which they all wait. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. (Romans 13:11) Paul's statement come up off the page and demanded attention: The Bible itself holds ample proof that complete salvation did not come at the cross.

In Paul's day, the covenant a man was under determined who he was. Remember, also that none of the promises of God could be realized under the law. Salvation and Life, eternal life, could not become reality without a change of Covenants. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if these had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law (Galatians 3:21). In studying this it becomes apparent that salvation was not completed at the cross.
 
Now let's listen to Paul as he speaks of the hope of completed salvation. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Romans 8:24-25) Why would they still hope for something that was complected at the cross? Paul said you don't hope for something you see. It makes one wonder were the futurist are getting their information. Obviously it isn't coming from the Bible.

The saints knew consummate salvation and the second coming of Christ were inexorably dependent events. Christ was offered ones to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin for salvation (Hebrews 9:28). Weren't Paul and his converts already saved? Yes they were, but not in the fulness that came with the establishment of a new and better covenant.

The key to understanding how salvation was consummate with the return of Christ has always been a good grasp of the historical setting of Israel. The temple and the entire sacrificial system were types or examples of tings that were to be fulfilled in Christ. The entire Book of Hebrews points the reader in this direction. Under the Old Covenant, the Levitical priesthood offered bullocks and rams to God as an atonement for their sins and for the sins of the people (Lev.9:7).

Interestingly , in this bit of Israel's history is the fact that the people were not blessed when the priest went into the tabernacle or when he offered the sacrifice. They were blessed when the priest came out of the tabernacle (Lev. 9:22-24). Israel knew that she was not blessed when the high priest went into the tabernacles on the Day of Atonement. The nation waited for the priest to come out of the Holy of Holies lifting up his hands toward the people, blessing them and saying that God had accepted their sin offering of atonement for another year.

A further development of this truth is advanced in Hebrews 9:24. This event referred to the time that Christ went into the Holy of Holies with the blood of atonement. Christ as high priest after the order of Melchizedek, entered into the holy place not made with hands to appear in the presence of God for our sins. Verse 28 of the same chapter refers to the time that Christ would come out of the Holy of Holies in which he had gone and bless His people with complete salvation

Unlike the earthly high priest under the law, Jesus' appearing or coming out of heaven was for the purpose of blessing those who were waiting for Him with complete salvation. Peter writes of this salvation that was to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5). All the believers in the first century knew these things. Peter and Paul simply remind them of the nearness of the time. A wake up call.(Romens 13:11)

Greatfully, preterist truth frees us from false, traditional teaching. Seeing God's word in the time frames God ordains.
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70

There are those among us who seek to blunt the edge of truth. This tactic is used to conceal the second coming of Christ with complete salvation. It looks like the opponents of preterism want to steal Biblical understanding away from the saints by telling them salvation was complected at the cross.

Believe what you want, that is certainly your right. Just please stop calling yourself a Christian, because you are not a Christian. You might want to read this guy's post. The two of you have much in common:

"The Second Coming of Christ"
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16178
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Believe what you want, that is certainly your right. Just please stop calling yourself a Christian, because you are not a Christian.

Alright auntie, thats enough. Time to hold your feet to the fire.

Time to put scripture where your mouth is.

Please show all of us here where in the Bible it says that believing and adhering to the correct eschaton is, in any way whatsoever criteria for salvation through Jesus Christ.

Can you do it?
I bet you can't!
I bet you won't even try.
I bet you'll just respond with more empty diatribe.

Go ahead, make my day.
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by parousia70

Please show all of us here where in the Bible it says that believing and adhering to the correct eschaton is, in any way whatsoever criteria for salvation through Jesus Christ.

If one wants to learn of salvation, one need only to look at the Cross of Jesus the Christ.

It is the preterist doctrine to wrap salvation up in their eschatology. I don't need to tell you that.

You see, there is a preterist dilemma. Take away your eschatology, and you must call Christ a liar. Take away your eschatology, and you have no salvation. Take away your eschatology, and you have no hope. I know of no true Christian who would even come close to that way of thinking. Yet, I do understand that you must cling to your eschatology, or else you lose all. So I do not blame you for clinging to it. You have painted yourself in a corner that you can never get out of.

Most Christians are quick to admit that we see thru a glass darkly, as none of us have all the answers. The true hallmark of a false "Christian" movement is they know all the answers and can back up everything with scripture. The Jehovah Witnesses do it every day.
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Believe what you want, that is certainly your right. Just please stop calling yourself a Christian, because you are not a Christian. You might want to read this guy's post. The two of you have much in common:

"The Second Coming of Christ"
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16178

This has been a very mean-spirited day for futurists. Lots of name calling. Little or no substance. Anyone can call names Auntie. It is an old debating trick used to cover a weak or non-existent argument. I hope you can do better than this.

Ozark
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Believe what you want, that is certainly your right. Just please stop calling yourself a Christian, because you are not a Christian. You might want to read this guy's post. The two of you have much in common:

"The Second Coming of Christ"
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16178

Just because one believes, the words of Jesus, and can back up what he believes with the would of Jesus, and does believe the traditional teaching of men that does not make him a non-Christian.

Now is the time for you to back up the herracy of futurism as well. Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64) Stop up to the plat and take your best shot.
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist


This has been a very mean-spirited day for futurists. Lots of name calling. Little or no substance. Anyone can call names Auntie. It is an old debating trick used to cover a weak or non-existent argument. I hope you can do better than this.

Ozark

Show me where I have called someone a name, Ozark.

And how often have your preterist brothers attacked me personally and you rebuke them? Never.
 
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Auntie,
I don't understand why you come to the preterist forums?

I think your fruit has fruit flies :idea:

As for me,
I loved this post. I thank God for the preterists who are willing to be insulted and banned and who knows what esle
to keep the truth coming.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Nancy
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Show me where I have called someone a name, Ozark.

And how often have your preterist brothers attacked me personally and you rebuke them? Never.

If saying we are not Christians and associating us with Jehovah's witnesses is not name-calling, I don't know what is. I believe you are a person who loves the Lord. Have you ever been accused of not being a Christian? If you have, you know that is about the biggest insult you can give one of God's servants. Anything a preterist might have said about you is extremely mild in comparison.

Ozark
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Show me where I have called someone a name, Ozark.

And how often have your preterist brothers attacked me personally and you rebuke them? Never.

O now that you have painted yourself in a corner that you can never get out of. New we are your preterist brothers. I never attacked anyone personally howere I do attack our old traditional, unbiblical, teaching of men, that is not seen the holy Bible.
 
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Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist


If saying we are not Christians and associating us with Jehovah's witnesses is not name-calling, I don't know what is. I believe you are a person who loves the Lord. Have you ever been accused of not being a Christian? If you have, you know that is about the biggest insult you can give one of God's servants.

Ozark

That you for pionting that truth out bear brother.
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
We believe that when God died for *us* on the cross, and shouted "IT IS FINISHED!" with His dying breath, that it was finished.

YES INDEED. We are simply saying it consequently had an outworking in that contemporary generation -which ISN'T detracting from what was established by the Cross -which has been shown by numerous scriptures on a number of posts already.

davo
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

If saying we are not Christians and associating us with Jehovah's witnesses is not name-calling, I don't know what is.

Ozark, I certainly don't say it lightly out of some desire to "call names". Have you ever studied with the JW's? If you have, then you know how they take the scriptures and show you the "correct" way to interpret the scriptures. They also consider themselves to be Christians. Are they Christians? Simply because they think they are Christians? They are deceived, and the root of their deception is pride.

I believe you are a person who loves the Lord. Have you ever been accused of not being a Christian? If you have, you know that is about the biggest insult you can give one of God's servants.

Ozark

If someone says that I am not a Christian, then I will be the first to get on my knees before God, because I have failed to teach the true Gospel of Christ Crucified. The heart of the Bible is reconciliation to God and to each other, and that reconciliation was accomplished at the Cross of Jesus the Christ. No eschatology needed to tell the story of salvation. No need to study the Greek. If I know nothing more than Christ Crucified, I know all I need to know to love the Lord and accept His free gift of salvation. What did Christ tell the thief on the cross? Not much, just ALL he needed to know to receive salvation.

Ozark, if a Christian says you are not a Christian, it should be a warning to you that you have believed a lie, you have been misled. It is not meant as an insult.

And if you approve of your preterist brothers delight in throwing barbs at me, then what can I say. That is your decision. They think this is a game, something to be won or lost. There's more male ego involved than anything else.
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777

We believe that when God died for *us* on the cross, and shouted "IT IS FINISHED!" with His dying breath, that it was finished.

Thank you Defender.:) How refreshing it is to read the simple truth of the Gospel.

What a precious and Holy moment that was, when Jesus expressed those dying words. He knew when he started His ministry that he would have to face the Cross. But He loved us so much that He endured our suffering in our place. Jesus paid it all.
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


No eschatology needed to tell the story of salvation. No need to study the Greek. If I know nothing more than Christ Crucified, I know all I need to know to love the Lord and accept His free gift of salvation. What did Christ tell the thief on the cross? Not much, just ALL he needed to know to receive salvation.


What is your promblem here dear brother? Paul himself taught Jesus with Old Testament eschatology. Even Jesus used Old Testament eschatology. Just because you do not understand how is works out with your salvation does not mean Jesus and his disciples never used it.
 
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Ozark, I certainly don't say it lightly out of some desire to "call names". Have you ever studied with the JW's? If you have, then you know how they take the scriptures and show you the "correct" way to interpret the scriptures. They also consider themselves to be Christians. Are they Christians? Simply because they think they are Christians? They are deceived, and the root of their deception is pride.


I have studied with the JW's and know beside them NOT KNOWING who Jesus really is, (I AM) some of the errors of their teaching is also futurism. I have ask them, as I have ask you, as will to step up to the plat with you bat and take your best swing at answering my question.

You see, there is a dilemma with JW's and futursim as well.
No where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64)

The JW's have a dilemma and the futurist camp as well.


[/B][/QUOTE]
 
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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
We believe that when God died for *us* on the cross, and shouted "IT IS FINISHED!" with His dying breath, that it was finished.

Hi Defender :wave: If you believe the words of Jesus on the cross why don't you come all the way and believe the rest of his words?
 
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