We are in training for the Tribulation
I disagree. I believe we are in training for the millennium when we come back to rule and reign with Him
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We are in training for the Tribulation
Agreed However I think it a part of our "reward" that those who have been like minded with Christ will be "chosen". Are you suggesting that we do not carry with us our souls (mind, will, emotions, interllect) addmittedly without sin.*Song Bird* said:How could what we're doing now, be training us for the millenium? We'll have glorified bodies then, and won't sin etc...please explain.
.Only those that go through the Tribulation will
The answer - When did the church begin, Songbird?*Song Bird* said:Site you verses.
Does that mean no believer (not even Peter or Paul) prior to the last generation of the Church can be included as His Saints - seems like a favortism doctrine to me.
Again, I have not said that the Holy Spirit removed from the earth. So you are bringing up another strawman. I DID say that the Holy Spirit would stop restraining - and allow the antichrist to rise to power.*Song Bird* said:Withouth the power of the Holy Ghost, they will not be able to resist
Absolutely!What is coming on this Earth will be far greater then the Holocaust.
Please try and not make this personal. It doesn't make sense to me scripturally.Strawman? Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you, because you will not let it.
Yes, but where in scripture does it say that Michael's job is to restrain the Antichrist?God is over charged everthing, but he gives jobs and positions to his angles.
The answer - When did the church begin, Songbird?
What was the purpose of the Day of Pentecost?
Why did Jesus say that the Comforter could not come until He had been taken up to heaven?
Yes many will turn away from God. There will not be many. After there's not a Rapture before the Tribulation, many will fail to see they are in it at first and other will lose faith. A great event like a rapture I'm assuming you mean...no... those that prepared for the Trib and stayed true to Christ are the Faithful Church,the saints mentionedin Rev. a few will be saved when they see the rise of this Anti-Christ after hearing about him earlier in life.In the last days,most people will turn away from the truth of God,so where are all these that are believers coming from? According to the bible,most people will be lovers of themselves,and will not accept the truth.
many in the last days will fall away from the faith,so how many believers will be left when Jesus comes back? It would seem that some great event will happen if there will be those being saved in the tribulation,because it doesn't appear that many will still be true christians in the last days before the tribulation.
Actually it was very much biblical as it was pointing out (via questions) the role of the Holy Spirit church and when the church began. Which led you to state this:*Song Bird* said:That is not a Biblical answer.
Actually, if you understand that the tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel... and that it is specifically stated that those who accept the mark of the beast have no hope...even if they regret it later, then you will understand the context of the week.But, you are saying that the Comforter(Holy Spirit) will return to a pre-Church state during the Tribulation, which mean he'll be around but not able to fill us! This is taught no-where in the Bible, in fact it teaches against it...
This is for the church - but the church will gone for the tribulation. Those that come to Christ will have a requirement that we do not have - not taking the mark of the beast. They will also be seeing prophecy as it is fulfilled - the trumpet judgements, the Antichrist, the image, etc. It is a unique period.John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Hmm.. Foever is not until the Tribulation...
And again, this is for the church.1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I know you beleive that the Holy Spirit is still going to be here, but thins verse tells us that our bodies( if we're saved etc...) are his temple. This was not true before Pentecost. And there will be Holy Ghost Filled Christian is the last day before the sun and moon stop shining!
The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit working through the church because believers will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no believers are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).From post #134 in this thread:
". . . The Holy Spirit didn't restrain evil through the church until the Day of Pentecost . . . "
Are you referring to Matthew 24:36-37? If so, there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.From post #134 in this thread:
". . . Only God knows the time . . . "
Isaiah 26:19-21 can't be referring to a resurrection before the tribulation because the resurrection can't happen until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and the second coming can't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Isaiah 26:20-21 begins a new thought, in no way subsequent chronologically to Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:19 is subsequent chronologically to the tribulation suffering of Isaiah 26:17-18.From post #138 in this thread:
". . . Isaiah 26:19-21 seems to clearly indicate that the dead rise first before the tribulation . . . "
The fact that the great multitude of believers who will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9-14) will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14) in no way means that they aren't part of the church, for all believers have washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 1:5; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 9:14), and all true believers will walk in white robes (Revelation 3:5; 6:11; 7:9).From post #138 in this thread:
". . . the tribulation saints in Rev had to make their robes white . . . "
The comfort that the Apostle Paul is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the answer to the sorrow that he is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that is, the sorrow that we may never see our departed loved ones again. Therefore, the comfort has nothing to do with the tribulation.From post #138 in this thread:
". . . we are told to comfort one another . . . "
Someone who expects the Antichrist before Christ isn't ready to meet the Antichrist instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman who expects birth pangs before the birth of her child isn't ready to meet birth pangs instead of her child.From post #138 in this thread:
". . . be ready to meet Christ, not antichrist . . . "
Do you get the phrase "left behind" from Matthew 24:40, which says "one shall be taken, and the other left"? If so, that will be fulfilled at the second coming, for in Matthew 24:39-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" that He's referring to in Matthew 24:29-31. There's no third coming. And if you notice Matthew 24:31, the elect will be gathered together at the second coming; it doesn't say that the elect will be either taken or left, so that phrase can refer only to unbelievers who are taken and left. At the second coming, some unbelievers will be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21), while other unbelievers will be left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.From post #138 in this thread:
". . . those left behind . . . "
In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 confirm that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.From post #138 in this thread:
". . . when they see that the rapture did happen before the tribulation . . . "
No scripture says or requires that the twenty-four elders or the four beasts who are singing in Revelation 5:8-9 are resurrected men. They could be angels who are offering up in song the "prayers of the saints" before God (Revelation 5:8, compare Revelation 8:3).From post #138 in this thread:
". . . the 24 elders are all men . . . "
No scripture says that the judgment of the saints will occur during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30).From post #138 in this thread:
". . . the Bema judgment . . . "
When the Bible lists the things that can keep us out of the kingdom of God, it doesn't include our view regarding the timing of the rapture as one of them (Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But the scriptures do include a great deal of eschatology, and we are to take heed to it so that we might know beforehand everything that we will have to face (Mark 13:23; Revelation 1:1). The Apostle Paul was very concerned when a church was receiving false eschatological teachings as it was causing many in that church to be shaken in mind and troubled (2 Thessalonians 2:2).From post #138 in this thread:
". . . They say we are not true christians just over our belief in the pre-trib . . . "
The belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required for a believer to keep himself from becoming complacent about his walk with the Lord, for he never knows when he is going to die -- his soul could be required by God this very night! (Luke 12:20; James 4:14).From post #139 in this thread:
". . . The pre-trib view makes people want to live better . . . "
It might in the future. The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.From post #139 in this thread:
". . . It surely does not hurt anyone . . . "
When we count up the years we find that the translation of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) was in no way connected to the flood in the days of Noah, but instead occurred over 600 years before the flood. And no scripture says that we are to look to the translation of Enoch as a type of the rapture, but instead the scripture says that we are to look to the patient suffering of righteous Job (James 5:10-11), which same patience we will need during the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).From post #139 in this thread:
". . . Enoch did not die, he was taken to heaven . . . "
In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the saints will be raptured before the vials of wrath occur (Revelation 16). Just as neither Lot nor Noah were raptured into heaven before God's wrath against Sodom or the flood, so the church won't be raptured into heaven before God's wrath in the seven vials. Instead, Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials of wrath are poured out, faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places on the earth which had been prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark prepared before the flood (Genesis 7:1).From post #139 in this thread:
". . . Noah was not an escapist, and God rescued Lot . . . "
The parable of the ten virgins relates to the second coming (Matthew 25:10). It in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture. Matthew 25:10 refers specifically to the marriage, which won't happen until the second coming (Revelation 19:7). There's no third coming.From post #139 in this thread:
". . . the parable of the ten virgins . . . "
Actually, neither Ephraem, nor Clement, nor Polycarp ever taught a pre-trib rapture. There was a forger named Pseudo (False) - Ephraem, but believers should not abandon the sound doctrine of the scriptures in order to follow the fable of a false forger (2 Timothy 4:3-4).From post #139 in this thread:
". . . The pre-trib view was taught by the early church, Ephraem the Syrian A.D. 373, and Clement and Polycarp also taught it among others . . . "
But what we believe about the rapture might affect what we believe about Jesus. For example, I've heard people say things like "The Jesus I know would never let me go through the tribulation." This sort of faith in Jesus could fail when He does let them go through the tribulation.From post #139 in this thread:
". . . it's not what you believe about the rapture that counts most, it's what you believe about Jesus Christ . . . "
The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for His saints, and then a subsequent coming with His saints. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.From post #151 in this thread:
". . . the return of Christ with His saints . . . "
Regarding Matthew 24:20, the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the Sabbath, so it's not an essential part of the teaching. Some Christians do keep the Sabbath, others don't; we aren't to make an issue of it either way (Romans 14:5).From post #153 in this thread:
". . . Why does the bible say to pray that it doesn't occur on a sabbath day? . . . "
If by the seventieth week you mean tribulation times, the New Testament church will be on the earth in the tribulation alongside unbelieving Israel just as the New Testament church since its inception has always been on the earth alongside unbelieving Israel.From post #153 in this thread:
". . . The 70th week of Daniel . . . "
The time of Jacob's trouble isn't the entire tribulation, or the last three and a half years of the tribulation, but the very end of the tribulation, right before the second coming (Jeremiah 30:7-9; compare Daniel 12:1-2), when all nations will gather against Jerusalem (compare Zechariah 14:2-4; Daniel 11:45).From post #153 in this thread:
". . . the time of Jacob's trouble . . . "
Matthew 24 is written for all believers, whether Jewish believers or Gentile believers.From post #153 in this thread:
". . . in Matthew 24:27-31 that Jesus was speaking personally to His Jewish disciples . . . "
We should all be looking for Christ's promised earthly kingdom, for just as Christ's kingdom currently exists in heaven (Revelation 3:21), and currently exists spiritually within our hearts (Luke 17:21), so Christ's current kingdom and power (Matthew 28:18) will be exerted physically "over all the earth" during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3), during which time all resurrected believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will "live and reign with Christ" "on the earth" (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27).From post #153 in this thread:
". . . [their] long promised kingdom . . . "
The appearing (or coming) of Christ will not happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). There's no third coming.From post #153 in this thread:
". . . 2nd Timothy 4:8 promises a crown to all those who love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . "
Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations "in Asia" (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations "in Asia" regarding a first-century time of trial. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.From post #157 in this thread:
". . . Rev.3:10 . . . "
There will be many people with salvation in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9-14; 13:10; 14:12-13), so we can be in the great tribulation without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1:10).From post #157 in this thread:
". . . 1st Thess.1:10 . . . "
John 14:1-3 in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture, but rather refers to the second coming ("I will come again"), when we will be raptured up to be where Jesus is in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). There's no third coming. Once we are in the clouds with Jesus, no scripture says that we will be taken all the way into the third heaven, for Jesus and we must descend to reign on the earth for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4; Revelation 5:10). After the thousand years are expired, and after the battle of Gog and Magog and the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), we will then live forever in the Father's house, New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3), where Jesus has prepared an eternal place for us (John 14:2).From post #157 in this thread:
". . . John 14:1-3 . . . "
Luke 12:36-37 is a parable about how we are to be always looking forward to the second coming; it's not a doctrinal statement regarding the marriage of the Lamb. No scripture says that the marriage of the Lamb will be during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight the armies that gathered at Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before it mounts white horses and follows Him down as He fights the armies that gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 19:14-21).From post #157 in this thread:
". . . Luke 12:36 . . . "
Actually, it won't. The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).From post #160 in this thread:
". . . the church will gone for the tribulation . . . "
Actually, when we look at the scriptures we see that none of the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth.From post #160 in this thread:
". . . the trumpet judgments . . . "