I disagree. I believe we are in training for the millennium when we come back to rule and reign with Him
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What you will do and feel if there's no rapture ?
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I disagree. I believe we are in training for the millennium when we come back to rule and reign with Him
How could what we're doing now, be training us for the millenium? We'll have glorified bodies then, and won't sin etc...please explain.
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Agreed However I think it a part of our "reward" that those who have been like minded with Christ will be "chosen". Are you suggesting that we do not carry with us our souls (mind, will, emotions, interllect) addmittedly without sin.*Song Bird* said:
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Umm...I'm not quite sure what you're asking. By 'chosen' do you mean the raptured, or those that 'overcome' in the tribulation? If we are raptured we will not rule and reign w/ Christ. Only those that go through the Tribulation will. Those that are going to be most like minded to Christ will be those who have gone through the same type of persecution that he did. In the Millenium we'll have glorified bodies, and will be able to rule, with true justice. I do not beleive we'll carry an sin there. I do beleive we can live over sin on this Earth, but not many do...but still I don't see how this could train us to be in the millennium. Hmm...maybe I don't understand what you mean...
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.
Does that mean no believer (not even Peter or Paul) prior to the last generation of the Church can be included as His Saints - seems like a favortism doctrine to me.
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The answer - When did the church begin, Songbird?*Song Bird* said:
What was the purpose of the Day of Pentecost?
Why did Jesus say that the Comforter could not come until He had been taken up to heaven?
The Spirit-indwelled church began on the Day of Pentecost. So no - the Holy Spirit did not restrain evil through the church until that day.
I will have to answer the rest when I get home...
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No, of course they'll be included as his saints, but NOT the saints that rule and reign with him in the Millennium. Revalation says,
2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
All these overcomers are in the Book of Revalation. So, as far as I can tell that's who'll be ruling and reigning. I believe these to also be the ones talked about in Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God[ ]
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I'm glad to see so much love and understanding here. I'm pre-trib,but I'm glad that no one here doesn't think I'm not a christian.That is very nice to me. Our view on the rapture should not be what decides whose a true christian or not when it's Jesus we adore and love,in him,amen.
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Obviously if you cant believe in the resurrection of the saints of God (both alive and dead) before the return of Christ with His saints (to rule and reign) than there could be more to agree on than just "Who will reign with Christ"
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I had written:Man will still be able to call on God..and will need to refrain from taking the mark and worshipping the Antichrist and his image. If they do - they are doomed and the Holy Spirit will not help them.
And exactly where does it say that the Antichrist is irresistible?
How did the OT saints resist?
[qoute]
Why should I consider it difffernt then what it means? "Stand up, stand still, cease"
[/quote]Context. Correslation with other scripture. I see nothing that indicates that Michael is the Restrainer.
Again, I have not said that the Holy Spirit removed from the earth. So you are bringing up another strawman. I DID say that the Holy Spirit would stop restraining - and allow the antichrist to rise to power.*Song Bird* said:
And exactly where does it say that the Antichrist is irresistible?
How did the OT saints resist?
[qoute]
Why should I consider it difffernt then what it means? "Stand up, stand still, cease"
[/quote]Context. Correslation with other scripture. I see nothing that indicates that Michael is the Restrainer.
Absolutely!
Please try and not make this personal. It doesn't make sense to me scripturally.
Yes, but where in scripture does it say that Michael's job is to restrain the Antichrist?
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:troll: 
I'm a believer in the pre-trib rapture,I believe it,and I'm getting ready because the bible clearly tells us to get ready to meet Jesus Christ,not the antichrist.I do respect your right to believe as you choose to believe also.
I really hope that those who are left behind here on this earth don't feel that God has rejected them or doesn't love them anymore.
So many think they will get to go anyway.
The christian entertainment out there today is also changing it's views too.I'd love to know all the pre-trib believers that you know,because I have the oposite problem.A few years ago it was popular for awhile.
I liked Corrie ten Boom,but she had been let down so many times,it seems she was afraid it would happen again,but all the signs of the times were not all there yet,although Hitler sure did make it look that way!
My Grandma's maiden name was Tobias,and it's an old Hebrew name.
We are suppose to have jewish blood in our family,and I love Jew's,many are saved,but the church is made up of both Jew's and Gentiles,it's the nation of Israel and the other nations that God will deal with in the tribulation,and you'll know this when you read the book of Daniel.
Why does the bible say to pray that it doesn't occur on a sabbath day? what would that matter to most people? It wouldn't,but to the jew's in Israel it sure would.They don't travel very far or work on the sabbath,and they don't believe in breaking a sabbath day,which is every friday beginning at sundown and ending on Saturday at sun down.
We know that when the AC declares that he is God it will also be in the Jewish holy temple when he does it because thats how the jew's know he's a liar because only the jew's get red hot mad when someone claims to be God,and this is when they know he's a liar.Most people wouldn't get so offended because of all the false leaders and false teachers that are already claiming they are God,or that they are given special power from God,ect....Only the jew's get so angry about that,so much so that they didn't even believe their own messiah,the Lord Jesus when he was here.I know many Jew's do believe in Jesus,but the nation of Israel today,as a whole do not yet accept Jesus.I know because I have saved Jewish friends who live there.The 70th week of Daniel is known as the time of Jacob's trouble,and that is when Israel will face more trouble than ever,but God protects her,and he saves a remnant.
We know also that in Matthew 24:27-31 that Jesus was speaking personally to His Jewish disciples about there long promised kingdom. The Jew's didn't know then that there would ever be a such thing as a christian church that would teach about Jesus and his gospel,that would be mostly Gentile and not observe the jewish law or make sacrifices before the week Jesus was crucified.We know Jesus was talking to them about them.
We also know that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit who was given to us by Jesus Christ,and he would not ever leave us,and he is a gift to us,and our comforter.The restrainer is our precious holy spirit.The power of the holy spirit is in every believer. Why would God leave his spirit here when he's going to let evil have it's time to destroy itself before he pours out his wrath?
The world will be in the worst time ever known to man,and evil will dominate the world for the very first time full fledge,in full power! It's the holy spirit who has kept things from getting much worse.If the arch angel was able to do that,he would have power like God,but no angel does,and angels are already at work now!
There is no way to take God himself out of the way,but he will allow evil to destroy it's self to a point until he pours out his anger and an evil world system.The church has already been made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ,but in the book of Revelation,the saints had to wash their robes in the blood of Christ.
in Isaiah 26:19-21 it appears to be telling us that there will be an awakening of the dead before the tribulation begins.The 24 elders in the book of Rev. are men redeemed of the earth from every nation,tongue and kindred,and they will reign on the earth as priests and kings,and this happens before the AC comes into the scene,and before the first seal is broken.
2nd Timothy 4:8 promises a crown to all those who love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ Luke 12:36
1st Thess 4:15
1st Thess 4:13,14
Ephs.5:27
Matthew 25:6
Matthew 25:13
1st Thess.3:13
The bibles is clear that the trump of Rev,is about more woe's but the trump before the rapture talks,and it's concerning a blessing!
I'm a believer in the pre-trib rapture,I believe it,and I'm getting ready because the bible clearly tells us to get ready to meet Jesus Christ,not the antichrist.I do respect your right to believe as you choose to believe also.I really hope that those who are left behind here on this earth don't feel that God has rejected them or doesn't love them anymore.
So many think they will get to go anyway.
The christian entertainment out there today is also changing it's views too.I'd love to know all the pre-trib believers that you know,because I have the oposite problem.A few years ago it was popular for awhile.
I liked Corrie ten Boom,but she had been let down so many times,it seems she was afraid it would happen again,but all the signs of the times were not all there yet,although Hitler sure did make it look that way!
My Grandma's maiden name was Tobias,and it's an old Hebrew name.
We are suppose to have jewish blood in our family,and I love Jew's,many are saved,but the church is made up of both Jew's and Gentiles,it's the nation of Israel and the other nations that God will deal with in the tribulation,and you'll know this when you read the book of Daniel.
Why does the bible say to pray that it doesn't occur on a sabbath day? what would that matter to most people? It wouldn't,but to the jew's in Israel it sure would.They don't travel very far or work on the sabbath,and they don't believe in breaking a sabbath day,which is every friday beginning at sundown and ending on Saturday at sun down.
We know that when the AC declares that he is God it will also be in the Jewish holy temple when he does it because thats how the jew's know he's a liar because only the jew's get red hot mad when someone claims to be God,and this is when they know he's a liar.Most people wouldn't get so offended because of all the false leaders and false teachers that are already claiming they are God,or that they are given special power from God,ect....Only the jew's get so angry about that,so much so that they didn't even believe their own messiah,the Lord Jesus when he was here.I know many Jew's do believe in Jesus,but the nation of Israel today,as a whole do not yet accept Jesus.I know because I have saved Jewish friends who live there.The 70th week of Daniel is known as the time of Jacob's trouble,and that is when Israel will face more trouble than ever,but God protects her,and he saves a remnant.
We know also that in Matthew 24:27-31 that Jesus was speaking personally to His Jewish disciples about there long promised kingdom. The Jew's didn't know then that there would ever be a such thing as a christian church that would teach about Jesus and his gospel,that would be mostly Gentile and not observe the jewish law or make sacrifices before the week Jesus was crucified.We know Jesus was talking to them about them.
We also know that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit who was given to us by Jesus Christ,and he would not ever leave us,and he is a gift to us,and our comforter.The restrainer is our precious holy spirit.The power of the holy spirit is in every believer. Why would God leave his spirit here when he's going to let evil have it's time to destroy itself before he pours out his wrath?
The world will be in the worst time ever known to man,and evil will dominate the world for the very first time full fledge,in full power! It's the holy spirit who has kept things from getting much worse.If the arch angel was able to do that,he would have power like God,but no angel does,and angels are already at work now!
There is no way to take God himself out of the way,but he will allow evil to destroy it's self to a point until he pours out his anger and an evil world system.The church has already been made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ,but in the book of Revelation,the saints had to wash their robes in the blood of Christ.
in Isaiah 26:19-21 it appears to be telling us that there will be an awakening of the dead before the tribulation begins.The 24 elders in the book of Rev. are men redeemed of the earth from every nation,tongue and kindred,and they will reign on the earth as priests and kings,and this happens before the AC comes into the scene,and before the first seal is broken.
2nd Timothy 4:8 promises a crown to all those who love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ Luke 12:36
1st Thess 4:15
1st Thess 4:13,14
Ephs.5:27
Matthew 25:6
Matthew 25:13
1st Thess.3:13
The bibles is clear that the trump of Rev,is about more woe's but the trump before the rapture talks,and it's concerning a blessing!
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That is not a Biblical answer. The Church as it's known began at Pentecost. I agree the comforter could not come to abide IN US until Jesus was gone. The purpose of him coming was to fill us, abide with us, show us knowlegde and comfort us! But, you are saying that the Comforter(Holy Spirit) will return to a pre-Church state during the Tribulation, which mean he'll be around but not able to fill us! This is taught no-where in the Bible, in fact it teaches against it...
John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Hmm.. Foever is not until the Tribulation...
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
So if they comforter returns to a state before pentecost, it cannot comfort us, or give us power...
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Will the Lord still be calling souls in the Tribulation ?. Yes he will!..and he promised of the infilling of the Holy Ghost is for all who the Lord calls! Again the Holy Spirit cannot go back to a Pre-Pentecost Church!
1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I know you beleive that the Holy Spirit is still going to be here, but thins verse tells us that our bodies( if we're saved etc...) are his temple. This was not true before Pentecost. And there will be Holy Ghost Filled Christian is the last day before the sun and moon stop shining!
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.( See this also Isaiah 13; Zechariah14; Matthew24; Luke21, Mark13, Rev 6:12-15; Rev 11:15-19; Rev 16:17-21 )
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
They Holy Ghost will be dwelt in us comforting us, during the Tribulation.
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Alright every body please...Lets look at Matthew 24, Luke, 21,Mark, 13, 1Thessalionians .4:15-17, & 1Corithians 15:52. They are all speaking of his coming, which I believe to be his second, and only coming back to Earth.
In 1Thessalonians4,
1.Parousia: greek word for coming.
2.the Lord descends from heaven,
3.with them in the clouds,
4.theres an archangel present,
5. a shout and trumpet of God,
6. the dead in Christ are raised,
7.we are caught up meet him in the clouds.
In Matthew 24,
1.Parousia :same greek word for coming is used.
2.Jesus appears in Heaven,
3. Hes coming in the clouds,
4. Angels are present,
5. theres a great sound of a trumpet.
6. ----
7.Gathering of the elect.
1Corithians 15:52,
1.Hes coming same greek word, Parousia
2.----
3.----
4.----
5.At the last trump,
6.The dead shall be raised
7.So shall w e ever be with the Lord.
Rapture verse used with Second coming verses = same thing.
And Mathew says....
Immediately after the Tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give its light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. And then the Shall the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and the then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
This same story is in In Mark 13, & Luke21, Jesus describes the Tribulation, the sun turning dark, the moon turning to blood, the heavens shaking, and then they will see the Son of Man coming in a Cloud, with power and great glory and when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draws near verily this generation shall not pass away, till all things be fulfilled. Pre-Tibs often say that this passage referes to the Jews, but as I pointed out, Luke, coincides with Matthew which parallels 1 Thes, and 1Cor.
Thse signs are also three times in Revalation , which is not in Chronological order...example showing that Revation is not in complete order would be, in Revelation 14 when were told that Babylon has fallen, and after that, the next section says do not take the mark of the Beast etc and yet Babylon isnt written about until 3 chapters later, and the Beast and his destruction were already talked about in the prior chapter. Also, in Revalation 11:15-19 we are told that the kingdoms of this world has become the kingdoms of the Lord, etc...but the last bowls of wrath have not been poured out yet etc...
Most importantly remember the LAST TRUMP? Mentioned in the Other Rapture verse(1Cor)? Yeah, well what happens at the LAST TRUMP? the same thing discribed in Mathew, which parrallels the rapture vs(1Thes) The cosmic signs!!!!
These are a few a many Biblicall truths showing he's coming once more.
In 1Thessalonians4,
1.Parousia: greek word for coming.
2.the Lord descends from heaven,
3.with them in the clouds,
4.theres an archangel present,
5. a shout and trumpet of God,
6. the dead in Christ are raised,
7.we are caught up meet him in the clouds.
In Matthew 24,
1.Parousia :same greek word for coming is used.
2.Jesus appears in Heaven,
3. Hes coming in the clouds,
4. Angels are present,
5. theres a great sound of a trumpet.
6. ----
7.Gathering of the elect.
1Corithians 15:52,
1.Hes coming same greek word, Parousia
2.----
3.----
4.----
5.At the last trump,
6.The dead shall be raised
7.So shall w e ever be with the Lord.
Rapture verse used with Second coming verses = same thing.
And Mathew says....
Immediately after the Tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give its light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. And then the Shall the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and the then shall all the tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
This same story is in In Mark 13, & Luke21, Jesus describes the Tribulation, the sun turning dark, the moon turning to blood, the heavens shaking, and then they will see the Son of Man coming in a Cloud, with power and great glory and when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up your redemption draws near verily this generation shall not pass away, till all things be fulfilled. Pre-Tibs often say that this passage referes to the Jews, but as I pointed out, Luke, coincides with Matthew which parallels 1 Thes, and 1Cor.
Thse signs are also three times in Revalation , which is not in Chronological order...example showing that Revation is not in complete order would be, in Revelation 14 when were told that Babylon has fallen, and after that, the next section says do not take the mark of the Beast etc and yet Babylon isnt written about until 3 chapters later, and the Beast and his destruction were already talked about in the prior chapter. Also, in Revalation 11:15-19 we are told that the kingdoms of this world has become the kingdoms of the Lord, etc...but the last bowls of wrath have not been poured out yet etc...
Most importantly remember the LAST TRUMP? Mentioned in the Other Rapture verse(1Cor)? Yeah, well what happens at the LAST TRUMP? the same thing discribed in Mathew, which parrallels the rapture vs(1Thes) The cosmic signs!!!!
These are a few a many Biblicall truths showing he's coming once more.
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Isaiah 26:19-21,the dead rise before the tribulation.
In the last days,most people will turn away from the truth of God,so where are all these that are believers coming from? According to the bible,most people will be lovers of themselves,and will not accept the truth.
many in the last days will fall away from the faith,so how many believers will be left when Jesus comes back? It would seem that some great event will happen if there will be those being saved in the tribulation,because it doesn't appear that many will still be true christians in the last days before the tribulation.
Rev.16:15 I come back as a theif,have clothes ready.
Hebrews 9:28 those looking for Jesus blessed.
Rev.3:10 kept out of the hour of temptation.
1st Thess.1:10 Jesus rescues us.
Romans 5:9 Justified by the blood of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 many mansions in Father's house.
luke 12:36 wedding supper
before the tribulation,There will be a great falling away of the faith in the last days,but then something happenes after the tribulation, and then there will be many saints.
In the last days,most people will turn away from the truth of God,so where are all these that are believers coming from? According to the bible,most people will be lovers of themselves,and will not accept the truth.
many in the last days will fall away from the faith,so how many believers will be left when Jesus comes back? It would seem that some great event will happen if there will be those being saved in the tribulation,because it doesn't appear that many will still be true christians in the last days before the tribulation.
Rev.16:15 I come back as a theif,have clothes ready.
Hebrews 9:28 those looking for Jesus blessed.
Rev.3:10 kept out of the hour of temptation.
1st Thess.1:10 Jesus rescues us.
Romans 5:9 Justified by the blood of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 many mansions in Father's house.
luke 12:36 wedding supper
before the tribulation,There will be a great falling away of the faith in the last days,but then something happenes after the tribulation, and then there will be many saints.
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Yes many will turn away from God. There will not be many. After there's not a Rapture before the Tribulation, many will fail to see they are in it at first and other will lose faith. A great event like a rapture I'm assuming you mean...no... those that prepared for the Trib and stayed true to Christ are the Faithful Church,the saints mentionedin Rev. a few will be saved when they see the rise of this Anti-Christ after hearing about him earlier in life.
So, not many will be left when Jesus come back at the end of the Trib. There are many professing Christians today, that do not really know Christ; we are approaching the last days.
Revalation 15:16. Is a good verse for post-tribs. Jesus says he's coming as a Theirf, and it's the only spot in scripture that says HE'S coming , the other two references say "the Day of the Lord" which is clearly at the end of the trib...anyhow that verse is right AFTER THE SIXTH BOWL OF WRATH HAS BEEN POURED OUT. So this means that the term 'Theif" in no means shows an immenent return, or the Rapture...unless that is the Rapture's at the end of the Tribulation and that's why he's telling us that he's coming.
Like I said rev. 3:10 does not apply to todays church, but the faithful, and he will keep us I beleive that. But saftly supernaturally in this world. 'what's the point ?' you may say...it's not for us in our human minds to fully fathum(sp?) All I know is that that's what the scripture points too, and God has NEVER delivered his people OUT of TRIALS. Through the flood, in the fire and lions den etc...
I beleived we're justified and I beleive in mansions...how's that fit in?
The wedding supper is after the trib. Also portrayed that way in the Vigin's parable.
Something happens after the trib? The rapture and ressurection and judgments.
good nite g2g to bed now
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"There is the last trump with a voice,it talks,and a last trump that doesn't.
One signals blessings and glory the other announces more woe's to the world!"
There cannot be TWO LAST TRUMPS.
The one that spokee to John did ot bring a blessing. The one in Rev 11, does. We get to rapture w/ Jesus
One signals blessings and glory the other announces more woe's to the world!"
There cannot be TWO LAST TRUMPS.
The one that spokee to John did ot bring a blessing. The one in Rev 11, does. We get to rapture w/ Jesus
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Actually it was very much biblical as it was pointing out (via questions) the role of the Holy Spirit church and when the church began. Which led you to state this:*Song Bird* said:
"The Church as it's known began at Pentecost. I agree the comforter could not come to abide IN US until Jesus was gone. The purpose of him coming was to fill us, abide with us, show us knowlegde and comfort us!"
Actually, if you understand that the tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel... and that it is specifically stated that those who accept the mark of the beast have no hope...even if they regret it later, then you will understand the context of the week.
This is for the church - but the church will gone for the tribulation. Those that come to Christ will have a requirement that we do not have - not taking the mark of the beast. They will also be seeing prophecy as it is fulfilled - the trumpet judgements, the Antichrist, the image, etc. It is a unique period.
And yes, the church will have the Holy spirit forever...but will we need the indwelling after the Second Coming of Christ?
And again, this is for the church.
And we could argue this all day...but I still don't see scripture indicating that it is Michael's job to restrain the appearance of the Antichrist. That Michael is 'to katechon' - that which withholdeth. Or that Michael is 'ho katechon" - 'he who letteth'.
I like this site and the explanation of Dr. Gerald Stanton:
http://www.tribulationforces.com/gstanton/chapter5.shtml
"To believe all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger than Satan. In order to restrain evil down through the course of the age, the restrainer must be eternal, for Satan and his workers of iniquity have made their influence felt throughout the entire history of the Church. Likewise, the theater of sin is the whole world, making it imperative that the restrainer be one who is not limited by time or space. Such a one is the Holy Spirit of God, for He is omnipotent, eternal, and omnipresent throughout the universe, and therefore preeminently qualified to hold in check all of the Satanic forces of darkness."
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Greetings in Jesus' name,
If a single angel can bind Satan himself with a chain (Revelation 20:1-2), then a single angel can prevent a single man (the Antichrist) from coming to power (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).
Jesus didn't say that no man will know the day, only that no man knows the day, which is still true. Compare the Apostle Paul's use in 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 of the same "the things of God knoweth no man" idea that Jesus expresses in Matthew 24:36. There Paul explains that by the Holy Spirit it is now possible for believers to know the things of God, just as other scriptures leave open the possibility that in the future the Holy Spirit will reveal the day to believers (John 16:13; Amos 3:7).
Isaiah 26:19 is similar to Isaiah 26:20-21 in that they both give us hope to endure the tribulation of Isaiah 26:17-18, that is, they show us that no matter whether we live or die, it will be okay, for if we die during the tribulation we will be resurrected as in Isaiah 26:19, and if we survive to the final stage of the tribulation when God will pour out his wrath in the seven vials (Revelation 16), we can be hidden in protected places prepared beforehand on the earth as in Isaiah 26:20-21. So we can have hope that whether we live or die, we will be the Lord's (Romans 14:8).
God comforts us in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4) so that we can be filled with comfort and be exceeding joyful in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 7:4).
The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit working through the church because believers will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no believers are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).
If a single angel can bind Satan himself with a chain (Revelation 20:1-2), then a single angel can prevent a single man (the Antichrist) from coming to power (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).
Are you referring to Matthew 24:36-37? If so, there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.
Jesus didn't say that no man will know the day, only that no man knows the day, which is still true. Compare the Apostle Paul's use in 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 of the same "the things of God knoweth no man" idea that Jesus expresses in Matthew 24:36. There Paul explains that by the Holy Spirit it is now possible for believers to know the things of God, just as other scriptures leave open the possibility that in the future the Holy Spirit will reveal the day to believers (John 16:13; Amos 3:7).
Isaiah 26:19-21 can't be referring to a resurrection before the tribulation because the resurrection can't happen until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and the second coming can't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Isaiah 26:20-21 begins a new thought, in no way subsequent chronologically to Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:19 is subsequent chronologically to the tribulation suffering of Isaiah 26:17-18.
Isaiah 26:19 is similar to Isaiah 26:20-21 in that they both give us hope to endure the tribulation of Isaiah 26:17-18, that is, they show us that no matter whether we live or die, it will be okay, for if we die during the tribulation we will be resurrected as in Isaiah 26:19, and if we survive to the final stage of the tribulation when God will pour out his wrath in the seven vials (Revelation 16), we can be hidden in protected places prepared beforehand on the earth as in Isaiah 26:20-21. So we can have hope that whether we live or die, we will be the Lord's (Romans 14:8).
The fact that the great multitude of believers who will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9-14) will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14) in no way means that they aren't part of the church, for all believers have washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 1:5; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 9:14), and all true believers will walk in white robes (Revelation 3:5; 6:11; 7:9).
The comfort that the Apostle Paul is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the answer to the sorrow that he is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that is, the sorrow that we may never see our departed loved ones again. Therefore, the comfort has nothing to do with the tribulation.
God comforts us in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4) so that we can be filled with comfort and be exceeding joyful in all our tribulation (2 Corinthians 7:4).
Someone who expects the Antichrist before Christ isn't ready to meet the Antichrist instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman who expects birth pangs before the birth of her child isn't ready to meet birth pangs instead of her child.
Do you get the phrase "left behind" from Matthew 24:40, which says "one shall be taken, and the other left"? If so, that will be fulfilled at the second coming, for in Matthew 24:39-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" that He's referring to in Matthew 24:29-31. There's no third coming. And if you notice Matthew 24:31, the elect will be gathered together at the second coming; it doesn't say that the elect will be either taken or left, so that phrase can refer only to unbelievers who are taken and left. At the second coming, some unbelievers will be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21), while other unbelievers will be left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.
In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 confirm that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.
No scripture says or requires that the twenty-four elders or the four beasts who are singing in Revelation 5:8-9 are resurrected men. They could be angels who are offering up in song the "prayers of the saints" before God (Revelation 5:8, compare Revelation 8:3).
No scripture says that the judgment of the saints will occur during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30).
When the Bible lists the things that can keep us out of the kingdom of God, it doesn't include our view regarding the timing of the rapture as one of them (Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But the scriptures do include a great deal of eschatology, and we are to take heed to it so that we might know beforehand everything that we will have to face (Mark 13:23; Revelation 1:1). The Apostle Paul was very concerned when a church was receiving false eschatological teachings as it was causing many in that church to be shaken in mind and troubled (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
The belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required for a believer to keep himself from becoming complacent about his walk with the Lord, for he never knows when he is going to die -- his soul could be required by God this very night! (Luke 12:20; James 4:14).
It might in the future. The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.
When we count up the years we find that the translation of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) was in no way connected to the flood in the days of Noah, but instead occurred over 600 years before the flood. And no scripture says that we are to look to the translation of Enoch as a type of the rapture, but instead the scripture says that we are to look to the patient suffering of righteous Job (James 5:10-11), which same patience we will need during the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).
In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the saints will be raptured before the vials of wrath occur (Revelation 16). Just as neither Lot nor Noah were raptured into heaven before God's wrath against Sodom or the flood, so the church won't be raptured into heaven before God's wrath in the seven vials. Instead, Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials of wrath are poured out, faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places on the earth which had been prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark prepared before the flood (Genesis 7:1).
The parable of the ten virgins relates to the second coming (Matthew 25:10). It in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture. Matthew 25:10 refers specifically to the marriage, which won't happen until the second coming (Revelation 19:7). There's no third coming.
Actually, neither Ephraem, nor Clement, nor Polycarp ever taught a pre-trib rapture. There was a forger named Pseudo (False) - Ephraem, but believers should not abandon the sound doctrine of the scriptures in order to follow the fable of a false forger (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
But what we believe about the rapture might affect what we believe about Jesus. For example, I've heard people say things like "The Jesus I know would never let me go through the tribulation." This sort of faith in Jesus could fail when He does let them go through the tribulation.
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The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for His saints, and then a subsequent coming with His saints. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.
Regarding Matthew 24:20, the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the Sabbath, so it's not an essential part of the teaching. Some Christians do keep the Sabbath, others don't; we aren't to make an issue of it either way (Romans 14:5).
If by the seventieth week you mean tribulation times, the New Testament church will be on the earth in the tribulation alongside unbelieving Israel just as the New Testament church since its inception has always been on the earth alongside unbelieving Israel.
All of the seventy "weeks" of Daniel occur contiguously, for a specific period of time would not have been given in Daniel 9:24-27 if its fulfillment would actually involve other much longer periods of time. And the Hebrew of Daniel 9:24 doesn't actually refer to seventy "weeks," only to seventy "sevens," the Hebrew word for which (Strong's #7620) is a participle of the Hebrew word which means "to be complete" (Strong's #7650), so that Daniel 9:24 could be referring in a sealed manner to seventy "completions," or seventy years, in the time of the end (Daniel 12:9), beginning with the modern commandment to restore the nation of Israel (either the 1947 U.N. resolution calling for the reestablishment of a state of Israel or the 1948 Israeli declaration of statehood) and ending with Christ coming after sixty-nine years (Daniel 9:25) and fulfilling all of the requirements of Daniel 9:24 in the earthly Jerusalem by the seventieth year.
We find confirmation of this when we look at Matthew 24:32-34, which may be saying that the generation that sees the reestablishment of the nation of Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) will not pass away (die) before the tribulation and second coming. Psalms 90:10 says that a generation passes away (dies) after about seventy years (or eighty years if it has unusual strength). If we take either the 1947 U.N. resolution calling for the reestablishment of a state of Israel or the 1948 Israeli declaration of statehood as the rebudding of the fig tree, and add seventy years (or eighty years if God puts things off), then the second coming could occur by 2016, that is, a year before the generation that saw the reestablishment of the nation of Israel would have passed away.
The time of Jacob's trouble isn't the entire tribulation, or the last three and a half years of the tribulation, but the very end of the tribulation, right before the second coming (Jeremiah 30:7-9; compare Daniel 12:1-2), when all nations will gather against Jerusalem (compare Zechariah 14:2-4; Daniel 11:45).
The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just the Jews.
Matthew 24 is written for all believers, whether Jewish believers or Gentile believers.
Just as Matthew 24:36-51 is written for the church, so Matthew 24:3-35 is written for the church. Jesus is addressing the same church, the same "ye" in Matthew 24:15 ("ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation") that He's addressing in Matthew 24:44 ("be ye also ready"), and He's referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" in Matthew 24:36-51 that He's referring to in Matthew 24:3-35. There's no third coming of Christ or second rapture of the church.
We should all be looking for Christ's promised earthly kingdom, for just as Christ's kingdom currently exists in heaven (Revelation 3:21), and currently exists spiritually within our hearts (Luke 17:21), so Christ's current kingdom and power (Matthew 28:18) will be exerted physically "over all the earth" during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3), during which time all resurrected believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will "live and reign with Christ" "on the earth" (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27).
The appearing (or coming) of Christ will not happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). There's no third coming.
Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations "in Asia" (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations "in Asia" regarding a first-century time of trial. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.
There will be many people with salvation in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9-14; 13:10; 14:12-13), so we can be in the great tribulation without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9; 1:10).
John 14:1-3 in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture, but rather refers to the second coming ("I will come again"), when we will be raptured up to be where Jesus is in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). There's no third coming. Once we are in the clouds with Jesus, no scripture says that we will be taken all the way into the third heaven, for Jesus and we must descend to reign on the earth for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4; Revelation 5:10). After the thousand years are expired, and after the battle of Gog and Magog and the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), we will then live forever in the Father's house, New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3), where Jesus has prepared an eternal place for us (John 14:2).
Luke 12:36-37 is a parable about how we are to be always looking forward to the second coming; it's not a doctrinal statement regarding the marriage of the Lamb. No scripture says that the marriage of the Lamb will be during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight the armies that gathered at Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before it mounts white horses and follows Him down as He fights the armies that gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 19:14-21).
Actually, it won't. The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).
Actually, when we look at the scriptures we see that none of the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth.
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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
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