Enough is Enough Already! Let's Be Honest!

A. believer said:

I have no problem in calling that one a liar. Our disagreement if over how one makes a determination like this.

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How could we disagree on the methodology for making the determination between one who is an intentional liar and one who isn't, when one wasn't even given?

And by the way, the person that I was referring to in my original post was deliberately twisting the scriptures, and thus rejecting the obvious on the issues of stating that Jesus wasn't speaking to Peter when He had said, "Get behind Me, Satan", when the scriptures so clearly state that He did say this to Peter, and the case with Judas, whom he had said was removed from the book of life. Yet the Bible doesn't say this.

One must wonder why he wouldn't admit that he was wrong when the scriptures so clearly show no support for such ideas. And yet he implied that I wasn't being honest, when I just simply showed him what the scriptures do and don't say on these matters.

HolyGuardianAngels said:

Think about this please:


Jesus did say He would build His Church on Saint Peter... the Rock... This would be His first Church... His ORIGINAL Church and those who Protest against it are not actually part of it... How can they be, when they are in Protest (Protestants)???????


And just a comment:
FWIW:

Sacred Scripture says: Judas "BETRAYED" Jesus... 98% of the forms of the word "BETRAYED" are used in reference to Judas and his betrayal of the Messiah!! ~To have "BETRAYED" Jesus must be a MAJOR MORTAL sin!! ...and Judas committed suicide!!
~Saint Peter and Judas can NOT be compared!!

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People, please stick to the topic of this thread!

A. believer said:

I defended you first. How come you didn't thank me?

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Actually, I was going to. So then, I will give you a belated thank you.

A. believer said:

Your post implies that, because you consider your conclusions "obvious" and he doesn't agree, he must be deliberately lying.

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What else would you call it? It's not like we were addressing some obscure passage garbed in cryptic phraseology. The issues were very clear.

How do you know he was deliberately twisting the Scriptures?

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You just had to be there to see the arguments. In fact, he even contradicted himself by saying Judas was removed from the book of life, and then stated later on that none of the names of the wicked are recorded in the book of life!

And then he had the nerve to tell me that I was being dishonest.

But you've said things in subsequent posts to me that confirm to me that you don't seem to recognize or fully appreciate the role presuppositions play in informing our interpretation of various passages of Scripture and the inescapability of employing an overarching presuppositional framework in interpreting anything.

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I agree that we often take what we believe to the Bible and interpret the scriptures according to what we already hold to be true. My point however, is that we shouldn't do this. We, as did the Bereans, should take what we know to the Bible for scrutiny, but not to prove that what we know is so. The Bible must prove itself; and if what we believe is true, it will measure up to what is written in it, as it is weighed in the balances of Holy Writ.

And if we don't approach the scriptures in this way, then we really aren't taking an honest look at what is written in them. We should lay aside our theological biases before studying the scriptures, and thus become selfless, so that we might pale into the heart of Christ's righteousness, and actually learn something.

You seem to think this is inescapable. Well, I have to disagree with you. Hard? Yes! Inescapable? No. That is, not if you will allow the Holy Spirit to "guide you in all truth". Jn. 14:26

cygnusx1 said:

hi A. believer

these are the posts wobadooba is referring to ...........

There are three types of people on this earth

1. The believer

2.The Unbeliever

and

3. The false believer

Judas was called a devil by Jesus , he was stealing money from the common purse long before he took 30 pieces of silver , he was destined to betray Christ , Christ called him "unclean" , he is called the "son of perdition" , and he was blotted out of the book of life (the book of the living)

Your analysis fails at every point.

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The Lord said "get thee behind me Satan" , it is clear Satan is being spoken to , or do you think that there was once a guy called Legion ..........

Judas was blotted out of the book of life ............. his days were ordained , his life was written in a book , and his end was predicted .......... do your homework

....................

So you think Judas and Peter are of the same spirit .............. Jesus said all were clean except one .(Judas) but you will not have it so ......... and there is a reason for that.


The Treasury of David





EXPOSITION

Verse 28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Though in their conceit they wrote themselves among the people of God, and induced others to regard them under that character, they shall be unmasked and their names removed from the register. Enrolled with honour, they shall be erased with shame. Death shall obliterate all recollection of them; they shall be held no longer in esteem, even by those who paid them homage. Judas first, and Pilate, and Herod, and Caiaphas, all in due time, were speedily wiped out of existence; their names only remain as bywords, but among the honoured men who live after their departure they are not recorded.

And not be written with the righteous. This clause is parallel with the former, and shows that the inner meaning of being blotted out from the book of life is to have it made evident that the name was never written there at all. Man in his imperfect copy of God's book of life will have to make many emendations, both of insertion and erasure; but, as before the Lord, the record is for ever fixed and unalterable. Beware, O man, of despising Christ and his people, lest thy soul should never partake in the righteousness of God, without which men are condemned already.

"you shall know them by their fruits" means what to you ?

Judas was called a devil ................. Peter was never called a devil .......... Christ spoke to Legion and Satan (using the cover of men) in two seperate cases.

Peter was clean , Judas never was , and you still mix it all up ........ for your own agenda .

"They shall never perish" ............. if it doesn't fit that clear statement then you have contradicted God's word.

*are the wicked in the book of life ?



EXPLANATORY NOTES AND QUAINT SAYINGS

Verse 23-28. He denounces ten plagues, or effects of God's wrath, to come upon them for their wickedness. David Dickson.

Verse 28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. All the Israelites who came up out of Egypt were put down in a muster roll of the living, called "the writing of the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 13:9), and "the book of life." Those who had died were excluded when the names were written out afresh each year. They were, thereby, consigned to oblivion (Proverbs 10:7). Hence, the book of life was used as an image for God's book of predestination to eternal life (Psalms 139:16Exodus 32:32Psalms 87:6Daniel 12:1Philippians 4:3Revelation 17:8 13:8 Revelation 21:27; Luke 10:20). The book of life, in the human point of view, has names written in it who have a name to live, but are dead, being in it only by external call, or in their own estimation, and in that of others. But, in the divine point of view, it contains only those who are elected finally to life. The former may be blotted out, as was Judas (Revelation 3:5Matthew 13:12 25:29 7:23 Exodus 32:33); but the latter never (Revelation 20:12,15John 10:28-29Acts 13:48). A. R. Fausset.

Verse 28. Let them be wiped out, etc. This verse alludes to the ancient Jewish practice of recording the names of the inhabitants of every division, or tribe, of the people, in a volume somewhat similar to the Dom-boc of the Saxons. See Luke 2:1. The names of those who died were blotted out or wiped out, and appeared no longer on the list of the living. Such a book is attributed to God in Psalms 139:16: and the blotting out of Moses from God's book, in Exodus 32:32, is a figurative expression, for depriving him of life. Richard Warner. Verse 28. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, etc. We come to the question, Whether to be written in heaven be an infallible assurance of salvation; or, whether any there registered may come to be blotted out? The truth is, that none written in heaven can ever be lost; yet they object against it this verse. Hence, they infer, that some names once there recorded are afterwards put out; but this opinion casteth a double aspersion on God himself. Either it makes him ignorant of future things, as if he foresaw not the end of elect and reprobate, and so were deceived in decreeing some to be saved that shall not be saved; or, that his decree is mutable, in excluding those upon their sins whom he hath formerly chosen. From both these weaknesses St. Paul vindicates him (2 Timothy 2:19): "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his." First, "The Lord knows them that are his;" this were not true if God's prescience could be deluded. Then, his "foundation stands sure;" but that were no sure foundation, if those he hath decreed to be his should afterwards fall out not to be his.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commenta...r=069&verse=028

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Then Jesus should have said "get thee behind me PETER!!! "

but He didn't did He ?

your interpretation smacks of legalism , a misuse and abuse of scripture to martial a point ........

it neglects the whole counsel of God and wants to argue over semantics ......but to no avail.

remember "we fight not against flesh and blood " that is why Jesus was addressing Satan ........ who was speaking through a CLEAN Apostle , not Judas an unclean one.

and if anyone disagrees with you , you go write a thread condemning them as liars!

such are your tactics ..........

http://www.christianforums.com/t2478942-once-saved-always-saved.html&page=12

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The sad thing about all of this is that you still don't see that you are embarrassing yourself.

1. No where in scripture does it say Judas was removed from the book of life. And I still challenge you to produce just one verse to substantiate this false claim of yours.

2. The verse says, "But He turned and said TO PETER, "Get behind Me, Satan" Matt. 16:23, thus implying that peter was manifesting the same characteristics of the devil.

Now, you have two choices:

1. You can admit that you are wrong

2. You can persist in being wrong

But no matter what your choice is: You do not have my permission to come here and derail my thread.

P.S. Spurgeon was a great preacher, but I wouldn't follow him on this one. By the way, thanks for substantiating the point of this thread.

cygnusx1 said:

I see so if i attempt to defend my position against your character assasination I am derailing your thread .........

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Character assassination? I didn't even mention your name once in this thread. You are the one that came in here and confessed.

Don't blame me for you errors!

I didn't intend to hurt anyone by starting this thread. I sarted this thread to make a point: that we need to be honest in our approach to the scriptures.

cygnusx1 said:

you don't have to mention my name to call me a liar ........ I can read your posts , and it isn't so difficult to place the person you seek to malign.

You said I denied any wicked person is in the book of life .......... I asked you to substantiate that claim .

Do you see any difference between the wicked and the righteous being written in a book ?

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that by asking the question, "Are the wicked recorded in the book of life?", that the implication is that they aren't.

cygnusx1 said:

........that is the same mistake you made when you read Revelation 3:5


read post #132 and #133 for clarification.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2478942-once-saved-always-saved.html&page=14

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For those who are interested in seeing exactly what was said in the discussion, here is the link:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2478942-once-saved-always-saved.html