soul vrs spirit

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cougan

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I was trying to find the thread on this I couldnt find it so I will start this new one with this aritcle.

Soul and Spirit – What’s the Difference?

by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Questions
Tuesday, June 11, 2002
Description
What is the difference in the word “soul, ” and that of the “spirit, ” as these terms are used in the Bible? There is much interest in this question – and, indeed, considerable confusion in the minds of many. This article contains a brief survey of the biblical data relative to this theme.



What is the difference between the spirit and soul of a human being?
There is no simple answer to this question because the words, “soul” and “spirit,” are employed in varying senses within the different biblical contexts in which they may be found. The following represents a very brief summary of some of these major uses.


The Soul
The Hebrew term for “soul” is nephesh, found more than 780 times in the Old Testament. Because of the variety of contextual meanings, it is not always rendered by the English word “soul.” The King James Version uses 28 different words by which to translate the original term. Nephesh, therefore, signifies different things, depending upon the passage in which it occurs.

Similarly, in the Greek New Testament, the original word for “soul” is psuche, found 103 times. Our modern word “psychology” derives from this Greek term.

Here are some uses of “soul” in the Scriptures.


A Person
“Soul” may signify merely an individual person. The prophet Ezekiel declared that the “soul” (i.e., the person) who sins will surely die (Ezek. 18:20), or, as Peter would write centuries later, “eight souls” were saved by water in the days of Noah (1 Pet. 3:20). See also Exodus 1:5.


Life
In some contexts, “soul” simply has reference to biological life, the animating principle that is common to both humans and animals. All creatures have “life” (see Gen. 1:30; cf. ASV footnote). The wicked king, Herod the Great, sought to take the “life” of baby Jesus (Mt. 2:20; cf. Rev. 12:11). In one of the visions of the Apocalypse, certain creatures of the sea were said to possess psuche, or life (Rev. 8:9).


The Mind
“Soul” can have to do with that aspect of man that is characterized by the intellectual and emotional (Gen. 27:25; Job 30:16). It is the eternal component of man that is fashioned in the very image of God (Gen. 1:26), and that can exist apart from the physical body (Mt. 10:28; Rev. 6:9).


The Spirit
In the Old Testament, “spirit” is ruach, found some 378 times in the Hebrew Old Testament, and literally meaning “breath,” “wind,” etc. The corresponding Greek term is pneuma, occurring 379 times in the New Testament (the original form being found in our English word, pneumonia). Again, though, as with “soul,” the word “spirit” may take on different senses, depending upon its contextual setting.


The Air We Breathe
Ruach can literally denote a person’s “breath.” The queen of Sheba was “breathless” when she viewed the splendor of Solomon’s kingdom (see 1 Kgs. 10:4-5). The word can also signify the “wind.” For instance, some people, pursuing empty goals, are but striving after the “wind” (Eccl. 1:14, 17, etc.).


A Non-physical Being
The term “spirit” can be employed, however, in a higher sense. It also is used to depict the nature of a non-material being, e.g. God. God (the Father), as to his essence, is spirit (Jn. 4:24), i.e., he is not a physical or material being (Lk. 24:39; Mt. 16:17; cf. also the expression, “Holy Spirit”). Similarly, angels are “spirit” in nature – though they are not deity in kind (Heb. 1:14).


A Person
“Spirit” can be used, by way of the figure of speech known as the synecdoche (part for the whole, or vice versa) for a person himself. John wrote: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world (1 Jn. 4:1; emp. added). Note that the term “spirits” is the equivalent of “false prophets” in this text.


The Soul
“Spirit” may refer the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.” A sacred writer noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah” (Prov. 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth.

Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15), and Paul noted that it is man’s spirit that is capable of “knowing” things (1 Cor. 2:11). Paul also affirmed that church discipline is designed to save a man’s “spirit” in the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 5:5; see also, 1 Cor. 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; Jas. 2:26).


Attitude
“Spirit” sometimes stands for a person’s disposition or attitude – either for bad or good, e.g., the spirit of fear, etc. (2 Tim. 1:7), a meek and submissive spirit (cf. 1 Pet. 3:4), or a spirit of gentleness (Gal. 6:1).


Conclusion
From this brief discussion, then, it is readily apparent that the careful student must examine biblical words in their context. The context can override all other linguistic considerations, e.g., etymology and grammatical format. A Bible term, extracted from its original context, loses its divine authority.

One thing is for certain. An honest student cannot study the uses of “soul” and “spirit” in the documents of Scripture, and then conclude that humans are wholly mortal. And yet this is what skeptics contend, and some religionists allege as well (e.g., “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and Seventh-day Adventists).
 

celtic_crusader

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Hi Cougan,
This is my take on the diffrence between the spirit and soul. I find that if you read this through you will then understand clearly what the diffrence between the spirit and the soul is or at the very least , I would value your opinion on it.

this is long but I believe it is Revelation;

Hebrews 4:11-13 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"dividing asunder of soul and spirit"

so to address the soul I must address the whole makeup of a person.

The difference between the spirit and the soul. I'll do my best to explain how I see the difference. The human being is made up of 3 parts.

The body = (dust of the ground)
The spirit = (the breath of life)
The soul = (the unique individual comes to life through the combination of the body and the breath of life. Read gen 2:7)

The soul is the make up of an individuals thoughts, feelings and decisions. Every single soul is unique because of this. So, we all have a unique soul.
The soul is what needs salvation from sin. The fight is for our souls. We don't have a unique spirit but rather the spirit in us is in every thing and every one and it is the spirit of life. The spirit is the expression of
the soul. The soul thinks and feels and from that the soul will display a spirit according to how the soul is feeling or thinking. The spirit could be joy or depression according to the souls thoughts.

To follow the spirit successfully we must understand the difference between the spirit and our own soul. To walk in the spirit is to understand that our spirit is the expression of our own soul and there for we renew our mind
to the mind of Christ (by repentance and change) and change our soul to come inline with the spirits of the holy ghost and there for the soul expresses
the holy spirit (love, peace, joy patience, longsuffering, gentleness and the biggy, self control) thru the change that takes place in our heart and
minds because of the testimony of salvation for mankind through what Jesus
has done for use.

Spirits are eternally in the earth and can be expressed by any soul and are even produced by mans own wickedness or holiness. Example: the soul of Jesus, no one can become like because he is the only one with that
personality but we all can walk in his spirit (the holy ghost) by changing our soul and literally choosing to express the spirits of god (love ,peace, joy and so on.)


Another example of the soul expressing the spirit is:
We spend time in the presences of god and then we walk in his spirit of, lets say love, and then as our soul is generating the attitude and presence (spirit) of love, along comes the enemy of our soul (the serpent) and
through his angels he intimidates that spirit of love by speaking into our souls (usually by others) things to turn our soul from expressing this love
(as spirits are extremely cottages) so he provokes the soul with thought to produce the spirit of RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS AND JELOUSY, when he manages to steal this love from us and replaces it with these three spiritual forces,
so there soul express this instead. Once he has achieved this and destroyed this love he then sends stronger forces against us to bind us in hatred until he has his final work. Which is for that soul to commit murder.


THIRDLY: how to stay in the spirit.

1. If you understand what I've written then you will start to see how important it is to guard our hearts with all diligance and how important it is to identify and discern spirits.

2. . Pray and seek for spiritual discernment so you can identify the spirits
of the serpent from the spirits of the Holy Ghost because it is so easy to get drawn away from god by these spirits.

3. So many Christians start in the spirit and once the serpent steals their spirit they can't get into the spirit until the next assembly because they rely on other people to infect them again with gods spirit. This is normal
for babes in Christ but if done for to long and you don't learn how to come into god's presence on your own you become religious and even a counterfeit.

This is all done by the control and renewal of the mind and soul to bring about the mind of Christ so we can walk in the spirit of god and not the
spirit of this world.


Some more examples:

5a. In the Holy Ghost we achieve "JOY" but the serpent comes at that spirit with the spirit of DEPRESION, DISCOURAGEMENT AND DISPAIR until joy is gone.
Then he brings HOPELESSNESS until he commits his final work, SUICIDE.

5b. In the spirit we have peace but our enemy attacks with TENSION, WORRY AND CONFUSION until he brings about fear and his final work is that souls
insanity.

5c. In the spirit we have patience until the fallen one temps us with IMPATIENCE, TEMPER AND DISHARMONY, until he achieves the spirit of ANGER from that soul until it reaches VIOLENCE.

5d. THE BIGGY, self-control is a spirit of god and is attacked by SELF INDULGENCE, COMPULSIVE BEHAVIOUR AND GOSSIP AND SLANDER. Until the liar achieves EMOTIONAL INSTUBILITY and ADDICTION for that soul and then
ADDICTION makes him a MANIAC

I could go on forever on how to recognize the liar and his spirits at work but as you can see it is all up to us to choose between expressing gods spirits from our soul and obeying the spirits of the father in heaven (as in
omnipresence) and not the father of lies himself.

But to do this first it helps to no the truth, as Jesus said, the truth will set you free.
Then we need self-control to establish this truth.


A simple analogy of the human make up would be this:

A light globe (body) is plugged into electricity (the spirit of life) and the light comes on (the soul comes to life) and when the bulb brakes (body dies) the electricity can't flow through it (spirit) and so the light (soul)
perishes and goes out.

So, when we die our soul perishes and the spirit leaves the body and returns to god, our hope is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and will return to
raise the souls back to life in a reunion of body spirit and soul in the resurrection or the dead and the final judgment.

The bible says he has the book of life and the books of remembrance so he can recall every one and everything at the last day when he will raise those souls that sleep in the grave and we will be free from the spirit of this
world.

Let me know if you understood me hear Pam and I`m interested to know what your opinion of all this stuff is.

Does this help the ability to discern what things are going on in our minds at any given time for you?

Paul said," bring every thought into captivity and bring it into the obedience of Christ".

I find that these revelations helped me greatly to be able to understand god and be able to identify with the move of the holy ghost (or the wicked one).

Everything that I have shared with you was not taught to me, I didn't learn that. All this was revelation from god to me. This is my own personal doctrine and although Christians believe it on a small scale, it isn't
taught in general in the church.

It is scriptural though. Every time you see spirit in this context in the bible (as in the spirit of man) notice that it is always refering to the spirit he was offfff and not of his own selfsoulspirit or whatever they think
 
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Blackhawk

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I think Cougan hit the nail on the head in the first post really. There are so many definitions for Spirit and soul that are used in the Bible one either has to go to the Greek or just assign them certain definitions. It is like "heart." Somtimes it means your feelings. Sometimes it means your physical heart. Sometimes it means your thoughts and your mind. Since there is so many different uses of the same owrds in the Bible I think one has to go to the Greek to really know what they were trying to say and use that to understand the soul vs. Spirit answer.

BH
 
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celtic_crusader

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supose I would need to disagree with you there blackwing , I have a good understanding on what the spirit in man is and if you believe it is this that and the other thing I would suggest that your not shore what it exactly is.

I would challenge you to read the post I wrote and you will see what I mean because I get the impression you havn`t read it all yet.

peace

Celtic
 
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Blackhawk

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CC,

Well I was not really replying to your post but the Bible does use the "soul", "heart", and "Spirit" in different ways. That was really all I was saying. I have not read your post but I know that what I say is true.

And alos I ma not saying that " ...if you believe it (Spirit) is this that and the other thing.." What I am saying is that when you read your Bible and you run into the word "Spirit" or "Heart" or "Soul" you have to see what the Bible means by it. This is because it uses the same word to mean different things. Those things do not change but what thing the word "Spirit" is referring ot does change.

Oh and I am not Blackwing. He is the other black dude that is a staff member also.

blackhawk
 
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cougan

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Originally posted by celtic_crusader
Hi Cougan,
This is my take on the diffrence between the spirit and soul. I find that if you read this through you will then understand clearly what the diffrence between the spirit and the soul is or at the very least , I would value your opinion on it.

this is long but I believe it is Revelation;

Hebrews 4:11-13 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

"dividing asunder of soul and spirit"

so to address the soul I must address the whole makeup of a person.

The difference between the spirit and the soul. I'll do my best to explain how I see the difference. The human being is made up of 3 parts.

The body = (dust of the ground)
The spirit = (the breath of life)
The soul = (the unique individual comes to life through the combination of the body and the breath of life. Read gen 2:7)

The soul is the make up of an individuals thoughts, feelings and decisions. Every single soul is unique because of this. So, we all have a unique soul.
The soul is what needs salvation from sin. The fight is for our souls. We don't have a unique spirit but rather the spirit in us is in every thing and every one and it is the spirit of life. The spirit is the expression of
the soul. The soul thinks and feels and from that the soul will display a spirit according to how the soul is feeling or thinking. The spirit could be joy or depression according to the souls thoughts.

To follow the spirit successfully we must understand the difference between the spirit and our own soul. To walk in the spirit is to understand that our spirit is the expression of our own soul and there for we renew our mind
to the mind of Christ (by repentance and change) and change our soul to come inline with the spirits of the holy ghost and there for the soul expresses
the holy spirit (love, peace, joy patience, longsuffering, gentleness and the biggy, self control) thru the change that takes place in our heart and
minds because of the testimony of salvation for mankind through what Jesus
has done for use.

I would agree with most of what you have stated so far.
Spirits are eternally in the earth and can be expressed by any soul and are even produced by mans own wickedness or holiness. Example: the soul of Jesus, no one can become like because he is the only one with that
personality but we all can walk in his spirit (the holy ghost) by changing our soul and literally choosing to express the spirits of god (love ,peace, joy and so on.)


Another example of the soul expressing the spirit is:
We spend time in the presences of god and then we walk in his spirit of, lets say love, and then as our soul is generating the attitude and presence (spirit) of love, along comes the enemy of our soul (the serpent) and
through his angels he intimidates that spirit of love by speaking into our souls (usually by others) things to turn our soul from expressing this love
(as spirits are extremely cottages) so he provokes the soul with thought to produce the spirit of RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS AND JELOUSY, when he manages to steal this love from us and replaces it with these three spiritual forces,
so there soul express this instead. Once he has achieved this and destroyed this love he then sends stronger forces against us to bind us in hatred until he has his final work. Which is for that soul to commit murder.


THIRDLY: how to stay in the spirit.

1. If you understand what I've written then you will start to see how important it is to guard our hearts with all diligance and how important it is to identify and discern spirits.

2. . Pray and seek for spiritual discernment so you can identify the spirits
of the serpent from the spirits of the Holy Ghost because it is so easy to get drawn away from god by these spirits.

3. So many Christians start in the spirit and once the serpent steals their spirit they can't get into the spirit until the next assembly because they rely on other people to infect them again with gods spirit. This is normal
for babes in Christ but if done for to long and you don't learn how to come into god's presence on your own you become religious and even a counterfeit.

This is all done by the control and renewal of the mind and soul to bring about the mind of Christ so we can walk in the spirit of god and not the
spirit of this world.
Again I would agree with most of this. If you fall into sin and allow it to take you down the wrong road yes you could end up in death. However if you have heart fixed on God and are truely walking in the light you may stumble but God will not allow you to be tempted beyond your measure he will give you a out but it is up to you to take it.
Some more examples:

5a. In the Holy Ghost we achieve "JOY" but the serpent comes at that spirit with the spirit of DEPRESION, DISCOURAGEMENT AND DISPAIR until joy is gone.
Then he brings HOPELESSNESS until he commits his final work, SUICIDE.

5b. In the spirit we have peace but our enemy attacks with TENSION, WORRY AND CONFUSION until he brings about fear and his final work is that souls
insanity.

5c. In the spirit we have patience until the fallen one temps us with IMPATIENCE, TEMPER AND DISHARMONY, until he achieves the spirit of ANGER from that soul until it reaches VIOLENCE.

5d. THE BIGGY, self-control is a spirit of god and is attacked by SELF INDULGENCE, COMPULSIVE BEHAVIOUR AND GOSSIP AND SLANDER. Until the liar achieves EMOTIONAL INSTUBILITY and ADDICTION for that soul and then
ADDICTION makes him a MANIAC

I could go on forever on how to recognize the liar and his spirits at work but as you can see it is all up to us to choose between expressing gods spirits from our soul and obeying the spirits of the father in heaven (as in
omnipresence) and not the father of lies himself.

But to do this first it helps to no the truth, as Jesus said, the truth will set you free.
Then we need self-control to establish this truth.
I dont see any real problems with the above. Basically in a nutshell it is up to us to show peace and love etc. which are all qualities of christ to man kind, because we are the light of the world. Yes we can have sin make us go the oppiste way of all these christ like qualities. So we need to stay alert and not let our selves sink deeper and deeper into sin.

A simple analogy of the human make up would be this:

A light globe (body) is plugged into electricity (the spirit of life) and the light comes on (the soul comes to life) and when the bulb brakes (body dies) the electricity can't flow through it (spirit) and so the light (soul)
perishes and goes out.

So, when we die our soul perishes and the spirit leaves the body and returns to god, our hope is that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and will return to
raise the souls back to life in a reunion of body spirit and soul in the resurrection or the dead and the final judgment.

The bible says he has the book of life and the books of remembrance so he can recall every one and everything at the last day when he will raise those souls that sleep in the grave and we will be free from the spirit of this
world.
Ok your going to have to expand on this because it sounds like your talking about soul sleeping here. Are you stating here that when a person dies his or her thoughts die also. In other words they are not aware of anything when they die. Plese elobrate on this.
Let me know if you understood me hear Pam and I`m interested to know what your opinion of all this stuff is.

Does this help the ability to discern what things are going on in our minds at any given time for you?

Paul said," bring every thought into captivity and bring it into the obedience of Christ".

I find that these revelations helped me greatly to be able to understand god and be able to identify with the move of the holy ghost (or the wicked one).

Everything that I have shared with you was not taught to me, I didn't learn that. All this was revelation from god to me. This is my own personal doctrine and although Christians believe it on a small scale, it isn't
taught in general in the church.

It is scriptural though. Every time you see spirit in this context in the bible (as in the spirit of man) notice that it is always refering to the spirit he was offfff and not of his own selfsoulspirit or whatever they think

So are you claiming that the Holy Spirit gave you these words to write down and that it was a revelation? Are you claiming to have the same Miracelous Holy Spirit as found in the 1st Century? It appears from your last paragraph that you would agree that when the soul or when the spirit is mentioned in the bible you have to use the context to determine wheather or not it is refering to a persons being or if it is refering to something else. I look forward to your response.
 
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Andrew

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very interested post celtic crusader!

I understnd it as such:

I am a spirit (the real born again me), I have a soul (mind, will, emotions) and I live in a physical shell (human body).

You said the soul will also be raised on the last day. But the Bible only talks about resurrection of physical bodies -- uniting with the spirit. When that happens, -- we have a perfect glorified body and a perfect spirit, do we still need a soul? just wonderin,
 
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celtic_crusader

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Hi Blackhawk,
Sorry for getting your name wrong. I also understand were you are coming from. I suppose the spirit in man is only applied to in one context in scripture to me. That is the context of mans spirit being the expression of his soul. It always talks in the context of saying he was of the spirit of this or that. I can’t really recall a scripture that calls us spirits. It says god is a spirit but I don’t even recall angels ever being referred to as spirits. God is a spirit though.



Quoting cougan,
Ok your going to have to expand on this because it sounds like your talking about soul sleeping here. Are you stating here that when a person dies his or her thoughts die also? In other words they are not aware of anything when they die. Please elaborate on this.


Hi Cougan,
Yea, that is right, that is how I see it.We wait in hope for the resurection from the dead at the last day.



So are you claiming that the Holy Spirit gave you these words to write down and that it was a revelation? Are you claiming to have the same Miraculous Holy Spirit as found in the 1st Century?


I wouldn’t put it that way but rather it was given to me through revelation by prayer through the holy ghost and then I wrote the understanding I have due to the revelations given to me.

You also said, “Are you claiming to have the same Miraculous Holy Spirit as found in the 1st Century?”

Yes, I most defiantly am claiming that.
This revelation came through prayer in the name of Jesus to the Father by the power of the Holy Ghost. If I didn’t claim it was the Holy Ghost then it wouldn’t even be a Christian revelation as it is the Holy Ghost that reviles the truth to us as christians.


It appears from your last paragraph that you would agree that when the soul or when the spirit is mentioned in the bible you have to use the context to determine whether or not it is referring to a persons being or if it is referring to something else. I look forward to your response

I’m not exactly shore what you are saying hear cougan?? Could you elaborate on this??

I don’t believe we have an eternal spirit but rather god is eternal and he gives us the spirit of life and that, combined with the body, produces a soul. That individual soul can’t exist without the combination of spirit and body.

In the resurrection it will be a union of our body and the spirit of life, which will bring our souls back to life. It will be a union of body, spirit and soul in the resurrection.

This is why we are written in the books of life and the books of remembrance.

As for context, well, I think the word spirit is used in different contexts but when it is talking about the spirit of man it defiantly appears to put it in this context every time that I see in the bible.

The word Soul in the o/t can be used to describe the whole make up of man but I think genesis answers the question of our make up the best.

Genesis says,” god created man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living soul”.

It also says,” from dust thou are and to dust thou salt return.”

Every were in the O/T tells that they believed exactly that, except for the hope of the messiah that will bring about the resurrection of the dead at the last day.

Jesus said, “any man that believes in me will not “perish” but shall have ever lasting life, at the last day I will raise him up.”


Quoting Andrew
I understand it as such:

I am a spirit (the real born again me), I have a soul (mind, will, emotions) and I live in a physical shell (human body). ,

Hi Andy,
I think the born again experience was to be reborn in Christ and to walk in christs spirit , that’s why we were to be baptized in spirit..

Like I said, our spirit is not a personal spirit. We can all walk in Jesus spirit and are called to walk in his spirit but that doesn’t make us Jesus!! Jesus is an individual soul that no one can ever be like or even equal to but we can all have his spirit because his spirit is love, peace, joy, humility and so one. These are spirits that we all can walk in but we are all individual souls , so we must choose what spirit we will walk in.
So after repenting of sin and recieving forgiveness from god through Jesus Christ and we surrender our life to him, we become born again in our spirits as our soul is cleansed from sin.

The spirit is simply the expression of the soul, so if god wipes the slat clean and our soul is clean, we will then be free to express a “new spirit”, the spirit of Christ, so we have been born again.

You said the soul would also be raised on the last day. But the Bible only talks about resurrection of physical bodies -- uniting with the spirit. When that happens, -- we have a perfect glorified body and a perfect spirit, do we still need a soul? Just wondering {/quote]

I believe that it is the union of the body and the spirit that gives life to the soul. That is how it was originally when god created Adam, so I most defiantly believe that our soul will be reunited with our body and the spirit of life.

Our soul is what makes us uniquely individual not our spirits. If our soul doesn’t rise from the dead then I would say that we as an individual have perished and Jesus promises to save our souls from perishing.

When Jesus says,” any “man” that believes in me, well, he has to be talking about the soul of that individual when saying this as our spirits are not unique because we all have the ability to display the spirit of peace or frustration, love or hate, joy or depression due to how our individual soul is feeling or thinking and so chooses to desplay a spirit acordingly.

When we die, our body turns to dust, our spirit returns to god and our soul perishes or as the bible also says, the soul sleeps until god raises the dead at the last day”.

All of the Hebrew fathers were classed as asleep instead of saying they were “dead”. As job says,” if I die, god, you will seek me but I will be no more.

:wave:
Celtic
 
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cougan

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Hi Cougan,
Yea, that is right, that is how I see it.We wait in hope for the resurection from the dead at the last day.

Well, I find this very interesting. You are claiming that you received a revelation from God on the understanding of this topic. Now I ask the question, if I find a flaw in your view based off of Gods word, would'nt that make your revelation from God seem like it came from somewhere else?

I have several problems with your soul sleeping idea. That is that we have no thoughts or ideas or any type of knolwedge of what is going on after we die. Perhaps you could explain the following.

In Luke Chapter 16 you have the example of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus gets carried away to Abraham's Bosom. When you read this example you will note that Lazarus has comfort and the rich man is experiencing torment, thrist, and concern for his family members on the earth. Since you say that it is the soul that has thought and emotion then you have to say that this was their souls in operation here. You would also have to admit that theses souls do not cease to exist at death but that we can expeience all these things after our death and before Christ 2nd comming.

Another example for you to look at that destroys soul sleeping is found in Rev 6: 9-11. Here you will see these people that had died but yet they are vocal, curious, have memory, morally sensitive, received blessings, and they comprehend.

You will also not that Paul in Phil 1:23 had a desire to depart his life and be with Christ. Why would he make such a statement unless he knew that he would be with Christ when he died.

Again you will have to explain to me about Moses and Elijah on the mountain with Jesus. You have both Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus but yet they are dead. What is your explanation of this?

I could go on but I will stop here.

When you say that you have the same Holy Spirit as they did in the 1st century are you saying that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit like the Apostles on the day of Pentacost?
Do you claim to be able to do the things found in Mark 16: 17,18 and 20? If not why not? If you are wondering, I to believe that I have the 1st century Holy Spirit through the word. I do not beleive that anyone poseses the miracles indweling of the Holy Spirit found in the 1st century today. I will leave it at that for now. Please I emplore you to show me other wise. I would think it to be awesome to say the least to experince the Miracleous indwelling of the HS found in the 1st century. You wouldnt have to take thought of what to say because the HS would give you what to say. I will be the 1st in line for that type of an experience. So if you really do have that ability please show me the error of my ways as I know that if you truely have the HS guiding you that I will in not be able to easily deny what you say. I would love for you to correct me so let me have it. :)
 
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Andrew

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Cougan,

I just have to address one point you make. Are you saying that you are a cessationist? ie a Christian who doesnt believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as the working of miracles, still operate in believers today.

Also, r u saying that the Holy Spirit doesnt guide us today into truth? eg giving us 'insights' into a particular verse/passage to give us greater understanding/ revelation?
 
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celtic_crusader

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Hi Cougan,
I will try to address some of these things, I also have had to question some of these scripture and a lot of these things you have mentioned, I have had to look at.

I will give my opinion about what I found. Remember, I don’t claim that everything I say is revelation, so don’t take me wrong mate.

As for revelation, well, I think that all Christians are baptized in the Holy Ghost and able to receive understanding from god. I often wonder why Christians never really agree on much, even though we have the same book though. I am not a witness of the work of Christ or his resurrection like the apostles were but through them I have received Jesus as my lord and in so doing, received the holy ghost whom leads and guides me into all truth as the scriptures say. That is not to say that I have all truth cougan, but rather, there are things I believe god has reveled to me through the Holy Ghost and then it has been confirmed in the scriptures and by other Christians that also see and understand it the same way as I now do. At one stage I believed that when I die I will either go to heaven or hell but after praying and asking god about these things, he promised if I asked him for a fish that he wont give me a stone so I live by faith. I can’t see why you find that so strange mate, isn’t that a trait of a true Christian if the leading of the Holy Ghost is in their life.

To address some of the scriptural things you’ve mentioned, I will start from the easiest to what ever you bring up. For me the hardest of all was the rich man and Lazarus but I think I understand why Jesus talked in these terms. I would also like to mention that we are really only looking at a few scriptures (including those that you will most likely bring up) but there are multitudes of scripture that far out ways these scriptures concerning the revelation I have of the difference between the soul and the spirit.
That is my revelation in all this cougan, not the soul sleep as such but rather the difference between soul and spirit and in that revelation it wouldn’t leave room for a soul to exist without a body and spirit. So, yes, I believe that the soul sleep is unconsciousness, being one of death and non-existence or sleeping with your fathers, so to speak. (Could even be the parallel Jesus drew for Abraham’s bosom.)

I am open to different possibilities of soul sleep although I think I will never move from the truth I know about the difference between dividing between soul and spirit.


First, mosses and Elijah, well two things. Elijah didn’t die and mosses, I get the impression, was taken by Michael because be rebuked satan from mosses body but The most important thing is that if you read it carefully, it makes it very clear that they all saw a vision of Jesus future kingdom. Jesus had just told them a few days before that some of them would see him in his kingdom and this vision was what he meant.


Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

As for the book of revelations, well, Christians have a hard time agreeing with what it means in the easiest parts of it.
Rev 6: 9-11. To me is majorly symbolic. The altar is symbolic for the martyrs being sacrificed. That is what that symbolizes to me. There isn’t literally an altar were god keeps the souls of the martyr’s bro, not in my understanding??? Maybe you could elaborate on this but revelations are a hard source to try to prove doctrine from unless it is stated in other books of the bible. We all see things a little different to each other on this book, yet we all claim Jesus as lord and claim his spirit. Some have revelation on some parts while others have revelations on other parts of revelations and other books of the bible.

(IE, are they under the altar or in Abraham’s bosom???)

As for Paul and what he said in Phil 1:23, well, I agree with him. If I had run the race Paul did, I to would have welcomed death because I would know that the next thing I see would be the lord at the resurrection from the dead.

Now, the one about Abraham’s bosom and the rich man, this was a hard thing to understand for me at first but there was so much other scripture against this literal meaning in the bible. I will post another post after this post to you cougan with these many scriptures, that I thought I had better check totally to try to see were Jesus was coming from and this is what I found.



When you read before the parable to get the reason for Jesus telling it and then you look at his punch line of this parable, you see that he was talking about the fact that the pharesees and scribes wouldn`t believe , even if Jesus rose from the dead


In chapter 15 of Luke, there are a few parables all saying similar things. The parable of Abraham’s bosom was just on of them. Jesus tells these parables straights after he sees the Pharisees and scribes question the fact that he is eating with sinners. Jesus proceeds to tell several parables explaining to these Pharisees and the commoner that god will show mercy to the humble and meek but rebuke the wicked and proud.

The parable of abs bosom was only one of these parables and when this parable was finished, Jesus wraps it all up to say that even if he rose from the dead, the Pharisees would not believe. I believe that was his whole point to the parable.

I seem to believe that Jesus was trying to relay this message and using a story to do it. For example, we know the rich mans tongue wouldn’t have been cooled even if there was a gulf. At this point cougan I would have to ask you if you take this parable literally???
I do agree that this is one thing that still troubles and confuses me but there does seem to be other explanations for why this concept would be spoken of by Jesus when it would contradict Jesus whole purpose and mission. , Which was to bring about the resurrection of the dead at the final day, after he has opened the seals.

Abs bosom was not literal but rather Jesus was drawing from idealisms of resting in peace (R.I.P) or not.

This scripture was the punch line of Jesus parable and this was obviously his objective out of a story that will warn the wicked of judgment to come, after death.


31 And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither would they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
.

I do believe that god does receive our spirits although it is the spirit of Christ and life that goes back to god, not our soul. That is why there are books opened with records kept. Not that I am taking that literally either.

Cougan, I am not claiming revelation on these answers I am giving you although they are reasoning connected with the understanding that we perish through death and the purpose and hope of Christ is to save the souls of those who are perishing in death. Because of Jesus sacrifice, we have forgiveness of sin and salvation. Jesus rose from the dead and proved that he was the first of many brethren to come when he comes to reward those he has a place for.



Cougan, I am going to post some things to show that there are multitudes of scripture saying the same thing.

It is the resurrection of the dead every were in every explanation of eternal life if it is taken into the context of the chapters before and after it.

I think I covered everything in your post, pull me up if I missed anything.

Peace

Celtic.
 
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celtic_crusader

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these scripture make it clear that the promise is the resurection from the dead and that when we are dead we stay in the grave in the earth until jesus returns to get us.

My favourite is this one from job in the Old Testament

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity?
for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

why would job say to god , that god wont find him because he would be dead. If he would have been with god after death.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Always see how it says heavens as though it is talking of the sky or universe , not some spiritual place. It says heavenssss.

They are every were in every chapter of the bible but not once does it litraly say that we go to heaven or hell when we die.

The scriptures that we will need to look at after this can be explained so feel free to hit me with those scriptures that won`t fit after your reads this.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

This one in acts is way after jesus resurrection so jesus didn`t take david with him.

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(That was after the resurrection.)

John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, "I WILL COME AGAIN", and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

How come it says that we will be with Jesus after he returns to get us???
Wouldn't that be referring to the second coming and why come and get us if we are with him as soon as we die.

This is Paul's assessment on this good news about the coming kingdom and it sums this whole issue of going to heaven when we die up and makes it clear that we stay in the grave until jesus returns to defeat sin and death and raise the dead it`s also an excellent testimony on the authenticity of there testimonies (apostles).

1 Cor 15
12 Now if Christ were preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ were not raised, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he rose up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead raise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ were not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. " (watch that word perished)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ raised from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive?
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

V 23 litraly says" But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

And
Proverbs 30
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

NOW
Genesis 3
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And
Matthew 18
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

And
NOW concerning your questian of marriage? AND THE RESURRECTION(not heaven) notice that this conversation wasn`t about heaven but the resurrection.

Matthew 22
23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

NOW CONCERNING THE RESURECTION.
Notice that never once is man going to heaven when he dies ( that wasn`t the promise) it was the promise that god would raise the dead through Jesus like he did to Jesus.(also notice when heaven is mentioned it is talking about out there in space every time.)

Luke 14
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Rewarded at the resurrection and not heaven after death.

And
JOHN 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And
John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Notice marthas doctrine was not that lazarus was in heaven but rather that he will raise again on the LAST DAY. But because jesus is the resurrection and the life , he could raise him there and then.

And
Acts 24
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

We should hope to attain to the resurrection but we as Christians hope to go to heaven???

And
Philippians 3
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

THIS IS A PERFECT LOOK AT EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND THE THOUSAND YRS OF PARIDISE.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

V 5 "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

LIKE I SAID, CHRISTIANS MUST GET THIS HEAVEN IDEA FROM FATHER CHRISTMAS.
This is the hope of Christianity.

Paul writes to encourage those who have lost loved ones about the hope we have in Jesus, notice he doesn't encourage them by saying its o.k. He was a Christian, he's gone to heaven, notice there still in the grave when Jesus returns to raise them. (And that hasn't happened yet.).

1 Thessalonians 2
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now the apostle paul needed to explain to the thesalonians that jesus was not returning in there generation as some had miss understood the previous letter he had written to them and explains that first there need come a falling away first(of the roman empire) and the man of sin must then rule until Christ takes him out of the way on his return (this is the papacy rain)

Read the whole chapter if your interested in the fact that the antichrist is a false Christ not a Hitler.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hear are some old testament scriptures.
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest,(R.I.P.) and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Isaiah 26
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain

These are old testament prophecys about this paridise that jesus will rule for 1000 yrs when he returns.(still no sign of going to heaven.)

This is another scripture that christians say means when we die we go strait to heaven????? Notice that if it looks like we go to heaven, you just need to keep reading until you find that it is the resurrection that is the subject every time. Never do they link the word heaven with dying.

Matthew 22
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they wereastonished at his doctrine

The problem is they fail to read v 31.( as touching the resurrection of the dead).

This is talking about god raising the dead to not going to heaven again.
Mark says it better(And as touching the dead, that they rise)

Mark 12
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

there are scriptures that look like there is life straight after death but they can be explained and they are farout weighed with the resurrection of the dead being the hope of Christianity. The promise is That we wont perish but have eternal life through the resurrection.

to be continued
 
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celtic_crusader

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It was believed in the old testament too. Hear is just old testament scriptures.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the
ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust
shalt thou return.

Everyone loves to say ,"yea , that's just the body that goes to dust. The
thing is , the scripture doesn`t go on to say he receives our soul , it says
that he receives our spirit which is simply the omnipresent breath of life.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity?
for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning,
but I shall not be.

why would jobs say to god , that god wont find him because he would be dead.
If he would have been with god.

Job 17
15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in
the dust.

Job 34:15
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they
die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall
return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is not the soul of a man but rather the breath of life that god
puts in a body and that creates a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake
and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the
earth shall cast out the dead.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I
will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and
I will establish his kingdom.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall
not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the
sleep of death;

I would be interested to see how you went with all that, even though I could
probably double the scriptures hear but I don't think I need to because it
is everywhere you read. let me know about things that don't make


Celtic
 
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cougan

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Celtic you have presented a lot of material. I can apreciate the study time you put into it. It seems you have studying this topic for a while and that would make sense how it is you came to your revealtion. I still want you to talk more about this revealtion you received. When you prayed for the understanding of this topic did it just come to you as a thought or did you hear voices? If it was a thought then how do you not know that you didnt think it yourself? Lets say that I study the bible at least 3hrs a day. Then lets say that I start studying a topic like baptism. Now I start focusing my thoughts on that topic. I can be going down the road and I can start having verses come to mind that work very well together to give me a deeper understanding of the subject of baptism. Now I ask was it the Holy Spirit that gave me this understanding directly or did it come from me. I beleive that when you begin studying a topic that it stays on your mind and even when you are not even really thinking about it your brain is processing the information. Then when you least expect it a thought will come to your mind and you will say yeah that make sense now. This is very common occurence with all aspects of life.

Now I'm not going to comment on every single thing you have presented because it would take to long. But I will reply on what can for now.

Did you over look this in my 1st Post.
The Soul
“Spirit” may refer the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.” A sacred writer noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah” (Prov. 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth.

Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15), and Paul noted that it is man’s spirit that is capable of “knowing” things (1 Cor. 2:11). Paul also affirmed that church discipline is designed to save a man’s “spirit” in the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 5:5; see also, 1 Cor. 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; Jas. 2:26).

You claim that the spirit of man is not the part that has emotion or is the part that is to be saved. Notice in my above quote that the spirit of man can be grieved. Here let me provide this verses that also says that it is a mans spirit that is to be saved. 1Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I do beleive that God has the power to divide the soul and spirit but it does not say that he will. The soul and spirit are meant to be togther as bone an marrow are. So whereever the spirit goes the soul goes also. Now as far as I know I have not claimed that we go directly to heaven when we die. I do believe that we in our spirit/soul will be in his presence in Paradise. 2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I disagree that Christians receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But this is a different discussion then the one at hand.

In regards the OT proof text you provided you seem to fail to recognize the principle of progressive revelation. In this case, you appear to be unaware of the fact that those of the Old Testament era did not have nearly the insight into the subject of the state of the dead as was revealed later by the illumination of the New Testament.

Paul speaks to this very point when declares that Christ, by means of his redemptive mission, “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10).
While the hope of immortality was not completely absent in earlier ages, it was shrouded in considerable obscurity.
First, mosses and Elijah, well two things. Elijah didn’t die and mosses, I get the impression, was taken by Michael because be rebuked satan from mosses body but The most important thing is that if you read it carefully, it makes it very clear that they all saw a vision of Jesus future kingdom. Jesus had just told them a few days before that some of them would see him in his kingdom and this vision was what he meant.

Well just when you think you have heard it all someone surprizes you. I have never seen anyone interpret these verses this way. Do you think that some of those people standing there died in that few days time. The scripture says that some of you will not taste death until you see the son of man comming in his kingdom. I belive that this scriture is pointing to the day of Pentacost when the kingdom/church began. Now the word vision used here just seems to mean what they saw. They had just woke up from a deep sleep and saw this. It doesnt say they were in a trance but they were awake and saw it. Not only does this show that our souls dont sleep it also shows that we have some sort of recognition after death.

I wold agree with you that one should not base a doctrine soley off the book of Revelation. Now the alter is very good symbolism since they had been sacrificed because of their proclaiming Christ. But what I really want you to understand is that this chapter in Rev 6 is clearly showing that theses souls were not asleep but were aware of their surroundings.

I do not think that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. If it is a Parable its the 1st and only one where he gives a name to a person. Even if it is a parable a parable represents and a similar truth. Yes I do agree with you that he tell them this story to point out that they would not even beleive if someone were to come from the dead. But Jesus here gives us insight to what happens to us when we die. Angels take our soul/spirit to Pardise in Abrahams Bosom. There we will be conforted. We will see this great gulf and apparntly you can see those that were wicked on the other side of this gulf. Now you asked do I think the rich man could of had his tongue cooled from a drop of water. No I do not but that is what he was wanting and hoping for. He just wanted something other than the torment he was in even if it were a drop of water that would by no means cool his tongue. Again you can not dismiss the points I have made because I believe they are solid.

Paul writes to encourage those who have lost loved ones about the hope we have in Jesus, notice he doesn't encourage them by saying its o.k. He was a Christian, he's gone to heaven, notice there still in the grave when Jesus returns to raise them. (And that hasn't happened yet.).

1 Thessalonians 2
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

By the way it 1Thes 4:13-18.

Notice in verse 14 that god will bring the saints with him. Here it is talking about the soul/spirit. He will bring them with him and they will be united with their bodies 1st.

Thats enough for me for now I must sleep now I spent to much time on this. Please try not to dismiss what I am saying here by saying that you can provide tons of scriptures against it. You surely can see that we find out from the verses I have provided that we do not soul sleep when we die. Our body sleeps but not our spirit/soul.

One last thing I would just like to say that its ok if we dont agree on what happens to us when we die or the distinciton of the body,soul, and spirit. These paticular topics are fun to look into but are by no means going to put ones salvation in jepordy.
 
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celtic_crusader

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Cougan
The revelation that I believe was from God was simply this;

“The spirit is the expression of the soul.

From there, I did become aware of a lot more as I prayed studied and searched for the understanding I now have, as you have explained.

The reason that I believe that I have a revelation from God through the Holy Ghost concerning dividing between soul and spirit is because of the way it happened to me. I can see that you have little tolerance for those who claim all sorts of things but all I claim to do is try to live my life by faith and that has paid of better than any other thing I have done.

I know my posts were long but like I said in them, there are far more scriptures that suggest otherwise cougan. I understand that you have your way of seeing things and I have mine and I also agree that these issues wouldn’t affect our salvation or position with the lord

I enjoyed reading your post, it leaves a lot of things I could say in return and I may reply on some of it soon but I can see that you have your own way of seeing these things. I know for one that I haven’t died and come back to know the truth about soul sleep and god has never told me personally that it is the way it is so I am not saying I am right and you are wrong hear.

This is the revelation that I believe god gave me:

To follow the spirit successfully we must understand the difference between the spirit and our own soul. To walk in the spirit is to understand that our spirit is the expression of our own soul and there for we renew our mind
to the mind of Christ (by repentance and change) and change our soul to come inline with the spirits of the holy ghost and there for the soul expresses
the holy spirit (love, peace, joy patience, longsuffering, gentleness and the biggy, self control) thru the change that takes place in our heart and
minds because of the testimony of salvation for mankind through what Jesus
has done for use.

Spirits are eternally in the earth and can be expressed by any soul and are even produced by mans own wickedness or holiness. Example: the soul of Jesus, no one can become like because he is the only one with that
personality but we all can walk in his spirit (the holy ghost) by changing our soul and literally choosing to express the spirits of god (love ,peace, joy and so on.)


Another example of the soul expressing the spirit is:
We spend time in the presences of god and then we walk in his spirit of, lets say love, and then as our soul is generating the attitude and presence (spirit) of love, along comes the enemy of our soul (the serpent) and
through his angels he intimidates that spirit of love by speaking into our souls (usually by others) things to turn our soul from expressing this love
(as spirits are extremely cottages) so he provokes the soul with thought to produce the spirit of RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS AND JELOUSY, when he manages to steal this love from us and replaces it with these three spiritual forces,
so there soul express this instead. Once he has achieved this and destroyed this love he then sends stronger forces against us to bind us in hatred until he has his final work. Which is for that soul to commit murder.

this is how it came to me;

I was repeatedly told by christians that the soul was the mind, emotions and will and to teach me that I am an eternal spirit man???

I never understood this concept so I read a few short books on it and it still made no sence. I am a person that needs to understand what I believe. I have spent long periods of time in prayer with god at stages in my life and at this particular stage I was praying alot and asking god what these christians meant by a spirit man because I wanted to understand the make up of the human being.. I began to question christians about what they believed our spirit was. I very quickly learned that allot of them simply spoke what they had heard and once investigated, every single one of them finally was honest enough to tell me that they didn’t really understand what it was or what it meant.

I went back to god and told him this and asked him if he could show me. I said word for word,” father, you said, if any man lakes wisdom, let him ask you, who gives to all that ask, if they ask in faith”. I went on to tell the lord what I had learned so far and how Christians don’t even understand the spirit man enough to explain it to me so I could understand and I told him some of the things they said to me.

While I was doing this and expecting god to do something about my lack of understanding I had a revelation that blew up like a balloon until it burst inside me.

It is a little hard to explain, I will try though. I had a realization in my mind concerning the fact that we as individuals express ourselves and that is our spirit, but at the same time I saw (not like a movie screen) what it meant beyond words so that I fully understood that we express ourselves and that is the spirit.

I am a fairly rational person and I am used to rationalizing something but this day was different. This came from out side to me. This wasn’t my reason that reveled this to me. I know what reason is, as you have well explained cougan but this time it was like, one minute I was expecting god to teach this to me and the next minute, I had the awareness of the truth of who I was and how I work.

There was no doubt that it was god to me ,once I had got down and studied in the bible and talked to others, the revelation was confirmed many times to me.

Cougan, it is a shame that out of my first post, you missed this for the sake of something I said about soul sleep.

you most likely would disagree with me concerning what the spirit is, considering a couple of your scriptures but if you read all of my posts (sorry there so long) you would see that I have got a legitimate case , a lot of other Christians agree with it for confirmation also.
I respect your views though, as I am aware that Christians have a real hard time on agreeing on much at all, which makes me wonder sometimes.

I will get back to you on some things you have bought up soon.

Peace

Celtic
 
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