Yeshua in the Tanach?

EchadHashem · Mar 28, 2004

Has anyone in this forum considered the question about the name of King Moshiach...i.e. Yeshua. How can we be sure that when the word "yeshua" appears in the Tanach that it should be translated as "salvation" instead of the proper name "Yeshua"? Here are a few examples that I have wondered about.

Psalms 38:22 Make haste to help me, O L-rd my salvation.

Which is a translation of:
chuwsh 'ezrah Adonay Yeshua

Wouldn't it be more correct to translate this:
Make haste to help me, L-rd Yeshua

I note that there is not a LXX version of this verse. In fact, there appears to be no LXX version for many of the verses that I have questions about. I find this interesting in light of the fact that the LXX was made (and amended perhaps?) with the guiding principle of showing that HaShem is one. I wonder if some of the verses that show that HaShem is one as in echad and not tachid were left out in an effort to not confuse the Egyptians who believed in a patheon and would have had difficulty with the concept of echad.

Anyway, here are a short list of other verses that one can check:

2 Sam 22:47
1 Chron 16:35
2 Chron 20:17
Psa 14:7 (a really great verse in my opinion)
Psa 18:46
Psa 24:5
Psa 53:6 (this verse seems to suggest that Yeshua will bring back the captivity!!)
Psa 69:29
Psa 78:22 ("...because they trusted not in Yeshua"??)
Isa 17:10 ("shakach Elohim Yesha...)

This verse brings of the question of Yesha vs Yeshua...need help with my Hebrew :scratch:

Isa 26:1 Does this verse state that Yeshua will appoint walls and bulworks?

Isa 46:13 This is a great one as well...

I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory. KJV

A better translation?

I bring near my Tsadaqah, it shall not be far off, Yeshua will not tarry: and I will place Yeshua in Tsiyown for Yisra'el
tiph'arah.

This verse is particularly interesting given the phrase "shall not be far off, Yeshua (or salvation?) shall not tarry"...one could do a whole thread on this phrase alone.

Anyway, this list goes on and on. If you have an electronic search capability just search the word "salvation" in the KJV and then look at the Hebrew and see what you think...

I would be interested in any thoughts that anyone has on this...

:help:

debi b · Mar 29, 2004

The beauty of Hebrew is that you can look at it in many ways. It is the most efficient language to communicate Biblical principles. There is good reason for the saying "it is lost in the translation".

Beyond the actual words themselves, there is so much to be gleaned by the construction of the language that does not come across. Consider that there is no past, present, or future as we understand them. Participles function differently than they do in English. Rarely is a jussive or a cohortative (that indicates intent or desire) given justice in an English translation. And then there is the vav. One little letter that says so much. So much more than a conjunction! Perhaps one of the most valuable aspects of learning the language is that you have to slow down (when you are first learning) and you see things in a new way and things you never noticed.

I think you would really enjoy learning Hebrew!

YatzivPatgam · Mar 30, 2004

How can we be sure that when the word "yeshua" appears in the Tanach

It wouldn't, since your using a Aramiac rendering of the name

The name (Joshua) should be pronounced Ye-hau-SHOO-ah for a correct biblical pronunceation of Joshua.

First, take a look at the word "Ya-SHOO-ah-ta"- it's femmine. It wouldn't be used as a male's name.

Nuances in hebrew can lead many a people to mistakes. Others make them on purpose.

debi b · Mar 30, 2004

Yeshua is a Qal masculine singular passive participle with a furative patach (Hebrew)

YatzivPatgam · Mar 31, 2004

The name "Yeshua" is Aramiac.

Words meaning"Salvation/Freedom/Freedom from bondage" are are femmine in Hebrew.

End of story.

YatzivPatgam · Mar 31, 2004

Quick follow up post to clarify;

yeh-SHOO-a (Jeshua) i.e Son of Nun

is grammatically diffrent then

ye-shoo-AH i.e deleverince,help,salvation

So substituteing ye-shoo-AH ( Or in the case above Ya-SHOO-ah-ta ) with yeh-SHOO-a is grammaticly incorrect. It simply isn't done.

EchadHashem · Apr 1, 2004

Thanks for the input

I certainly am not one that wishes to read things that are not there. In equal measure, I am not one to want to miss things that are there. Thus, I appreciate the lessons in the Hebrew language.

However, I must admit that I have some difficulty (albeit contextual in nature) with your statements about the name(?) Yeshua.

Beresheit 5:29
And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. KJV

Here we see the common practice of naming someone by a characteristic of their life. In this case Noah (i.e. comfort) is named because he will comfort. There are many examples of this in the Tanach (i.e. Jacob = heel). We find in the Brit Chadeshah the following:

and thou shalt call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

This says to me that the name Yeshua was chosen based on its relationship to the word salvation. Thus, it seems hard for me to accept that the name is not derived from salvation or to fault the (seemingly) obvious midrash on all the verses in the Tanach. On the other hand, whether it should be applied to Yeshua ben Yosef min-Natzeret as apposed to the many other Yeshua's in that time period seems to be in question. Am I wrong here?

Help me with this:
In Ezra 3:2 we find the name Yeshua belonging to the Cohain HaGadol

Is this largely different to all these other examples from the Tanach...

Thanks.

PS The fact that Jacob means heel is a great ref to the original promise of the Seed I think

JewishHeart · Apr 1, 2004

Echad Hashem,

You said, "Help me with this:
In Ezra 3:2 we find the name Yeshua belonging to the Cohain HaGadol"

Not only is it that in Ezra 3:2 the name of the Cohen HaGadol is Yeshua, but also in Zech 3:1 it mentions the same Cohen HaGadol, but with the name Joshua (Ezra says his name is Yeshua - so there was a misunderstanding of names between Ezra and Zechariah of the Cohen HaGadol at that time).

Anyways, listen to what it says about this Yeshua/Joshua Cohen HaGadol at the time of Ezra.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at(the Hebrew says A Sign): for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Again in Zechariah 6 about this same Yeshua (Ezra 3)/Joshua Cohen HaGadol

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Branch means Messiah... so the name of Joshua/Yeshua Cohen HaGadol is the same name as Messiah. This Yeshua/Joshua is a sign to Israel that the L-rd will forget the sins of Israel IN ONE DAY!!!!

Wow, this is too good.

Daniel 9 prophecies about the timing of the coming of Messiah.

Zechariah/Ezra even gets to the name of Messiah and purpose
!!!

JewishHeart · Apr 1, 2004

Oops forget to add verse 11 in Zech 6 to show its talking about this Yeshua/Joshua Cohen HaGadol

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

JewishHeart · Apr 1, 2004

Ezr 3:2 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

YatzivPatgam · Apr 1, 2004

Thanks for the input

I live to serve :hug:

However, I must admit that I have some difficulty (albeit contextual in nature) with your statements about the name(?) Yeshua.

Beresheit 5:29
And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. KJV

First things first. The KJV is not exactly the most precise when it comes to accuretly translating Hebrew. If you ever get a chance, Stay away from KJV and Strong's Hebrew dictionary stuff when studying "OT" and Hebrew a bit more in-depth then finding a basic meaning.

Here we see the common practice of naming someone by a characteristic of their life. In this case Noah (i.e. comfort) is named because he will comfort. There are many examples of this in the Tanach (i.e. Jacob = heel).

Indeed! But you'd never say, "Oh Bill, will you [noah] me! " The names are derived from a root word.

We find in the Brit Chadeshah the following

Until you show me a orginal document of the Greek New Testament written in 1st Century Aramiac/Hebrew, you shouldn't apply Semetic grammar rules to a document written in Kohine greek

This says to me that the name Yeshua was chosen based on its relationship to the word salvation. Thus, it seems hard for me to accept that the name is not derived from salvation or to fault the (seemingly) obvious midrash on all the verses in the Tanach. On the other hand, whether it should be applied to Yeshua ben Yosef min-Natzeret as apposed to the many other Yeshua's in that time period seems to be in question. Am I wrong here?

I'll touch on it again.

yeh-SHOO-a is a males name

ye-shoo-AH- is the word for Salvation and is femminne.

So in short, you can't swap out ye-shoo-AH for yeh-SHOO-a becuase they are not the same word and are constructed diffrently. Yes yeh-SHOO-a is a name derived from ye-shoo-AH, but they are not the same and cannot be used interchanglebly.

And if you can find me a Midrashic passage that says MOshiach ben Yosef of Ephraim is supposed to be named yeh-SHOO-a becuase he'll bring salvation, I'll kiss Yafet right on the nose.

EchadHashem · Apr 1, 2004

YatzivPatgam said:
First things first. The KJV is not exactly the most precise when it comes to accuretly translating Hebrew. If you ever get a chance, Stay away from KJV and Strong's Hebrew dictionary stuff when studying "OT" and Hebrew a bit more in-depth then finding a basic meaning.

Yeah....no question there. You might be amused to know that the KJV suggests that the Mashiach will come from Sion (i.e. the north country) as apposed to Zion. Pretty messed up. Learning Hebrew continues to be a process for me....I take to math much easier than to language ... but I am working diligently on it. Thanks again for the help.

YatzivPatgam said:
Indeed! But you'd never say, "Oh Bill, will you [noah] me! " The names are derived from a root word.

You are correct here...in English this whole idea fails....most of the time. My last name is Stout....it has been said to me, "you are stout"...referring to my remarkable physique I am sure

Anyway, as you say...English is not the question here. Hebrew is. I am still learning Hebrew....I will happily take your word for it until I get a good handle on it myself.

YatzivPatgam said:
Until you show me a orginal document of the Greek New Testament written in 1st Century Aramiac/Hebrew, you shouldn't apply Semetic grammar rules to a document written in Kohine greek

I guess I need to get one thing straight here. Do you not believe that the Brit Chadashah is the writing of a 1st Century Jewish sect (even if you feel their beliefs are incorrect). It seems that the idea of naming someone based on a characteristic is a Jewish idea and the structure of how this is recorded is a Jewish construct that comes through even though we only have the Greek version. In fact, it is these types of findings that strongly suggest to me that the document was written by a Jewish sectarian. It seems highly unlikely that a goyim would have enough knowledge of the Tanach to use this word pattern. Am I wrong here? :help:

YatzivPatgam said:
And if you can find me a Midrashic passage that says MOshiach ben Yosef of Ephraim is supposed to be named yeh-SHOO-a becuase he'll bring salvation, I'll kiss Yafet right on the nose.

On the nose no less...is that Kosher????

First let me say that is a very, very fair question. However, isn't this a fair question too...if you where to give one word to describe Moshiach ben Yosef Ephraim what would it be? My point was that this naming was actually a Midrash of sorts on all these verses. After reading all Tanach verses wouldn't one choose a word very much like salvation? :help:

Perhaps you would choose Immanuel

By the way, isn't Salvation one of the 72 names of HaShem? I could be very wrong here....I have just heard this. Correct me here please.

All in all, my point is that what is obvious (perhaps not obvious to all, just my thoughts so don't take offense) shouldn't be expunged from Jewish heritage just because some believe that it does not apply to Yeshua. In other words, if my last name was Bush it wouldn't mean that I was president or even related to the president. It seems to me that the linkage between these verses about Salvation in the Tanach and the Moshiach is very strong. I feel that there is no need to deny this even if one believes that Yeshua of the Brit Chadashah is not the Moshiach.

hmmm....

EchadHashem · Apr 1, 2004

JewishHeart....WOW!!! I am digesting this!!! I will respond in a while. That is an incredible find.

Hey Debi b

thanks!!

debi b · Apr 1, 2004

JewishHeart · Apr 2, 2004

Echad,

I can't take credit for this "find", but one of the people who mentor me, Asher Intrater, taught us this.

Yeshua in the Tanach?

I Serve Echad YHVH

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