Jetman, both Romans 11 and Galatians 5 that I quoted earlier refer to people who have been set free from the bonds of slavery, which we know can only be done through Christ. The NIV I quoted doesn't translate Galatians like the RSV which says, "you have been severed from Christ." To be severed, you must have once been a part of Him, and Him you, just as Romans 11 says those who do not endure faithfully will be cut off from the vine that they have been grafted into. We were grafted in through Christ, and if we remain faithful we will get the fruit of that vine.
Well, once again we interpret those verses differently.
We can only enter Heaven if we are in a State of
Grace, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Through Mortal Sin, we can deny that Spirit and reject it and the gifts which go with it, the most important being communion with Christ. Hence Galatians 5:4 "you have fallen from grace." Without communion with Christ, we cannot claim to be adopted sons of the Father, and upon our death we will not have any claim to the inheritance that was once ours, Eternal Life in Heaven.
I do not believe that Paul's reference to grace means salvation. True, it can be construed to mean that, but God graces us in many ways. Just as He may become distraught with us and we get further away from Him as we sin, we fall a little away from His grace.
Your statement that you receive eternal life when you are saved is not a part of the Catholic Faith. We believe you claim that life only at death. Grace and Communion with Christ can be experienced in this life, though, through the Sacraments and other means. The Catholic sees life as a growth in Holiness after our conversion, a growth that doesn't stop, and in fact can reverse if we allow it.
Yes, I didn't realize that before. One more thing I've learned.
Didn't Adam and Eve, who were sinless and communed with God, only commit one sin to banish them from Paradise?
Indeed they did. And it only takes one sin for a person to fall under God's condemnation, but it only takes one commitment to bring yourself under God's eternal salvation, I believe. In the Old Testament, holiness and salvation were based on works. You had to live the correct way and make regular sacrifices to be considered right in God's eyes. With Christ's sacrifice, we have a new convenant; accept what He did on the cross and your sins are washed away forever, God will live in you and give you the power not to sin.
Actually, this is true, but the definition of apostacy is ABANDONMENT of your religion. You have to have something before you abandon it.
It is true that you can practice "religion" without actually being a Christian. Like I said before, there are many who go through the motions outwardly, yet eventually they commit apostasy and live COMPLETELY in sin, exposing their false faith.
I am also deeply troubled by your reasoning that a person who is truly saved cannot experience this severance from faith. If you were to talk to a Death Row prisoner and find out that he had been "saved" as a child, but had been led away from his religion by bad company, to tell him that he hadn't "really been saved" to begin with is telling him his original feelings were not real. How can you possibly KNOW that they weren't?
I wouldn't know. And I don't stand in judgment against that man, only God can truly know if he was genuinely saved. But it certainly stands to reason that if someone says a few words when they are a child and goes on to live a life of utter lawslessness, it is pretty certain that there was no real commitment. At a young age I "said the words" and thought I was a Christian, but as I got older I realized that I had never really made a true commitment. At the age of eleven, I asked my mother to lead me to Christ. She did, and I have had a true relationship with Christ ever since.
People are NOT logical. In a perfect world, yes, they would stay the course, they would live sincere lives and reflect their relationship with God, and let the Holy Spirit shine through their lives. But people are basically STUPID. They will throw away opportunities and abandon wonderful lives, for ridiculous reasons. All you have to do is look around you for examples!
The idea of being able to reconcile after we admit to doing foolish things which jeopardize our relationship with God is one of the most human, most compassionate teachings of the Catholic Church.
Reconciliation is not absent in the belief that salvation is permanent. I always find myself making mistakes and repenting of them, returning to God's good will for my life, but my salvation is never in jeopardy, just my relationship with God.
Well it's been a good discussion folks, seems like we've been able to converse and make good points without getting heated about it. We should probably stop here, because this could go on forever and it seems like every time I reply I have to respond to more people and quotes
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