Suicide - Fatal Sin?

The vast majority of Protestant churches teach eternal salvation.

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As a matter of Doctrine, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Assemblies of God, all teach a falling from grace is possible. In the Catholic view, eternal life, which is irrevocable, is the inheritance that we recieve in Heaven. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given freely by grace through Christ, is what allows us to enter into Heaven and get the inheritance that is ours as adopted sons of the Father through Christ, the only Son.

Romans 11:17-23
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

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Galatians 5:1-4
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

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Notice that in both cases Paul is addressing people who have a faith in Christ, a faith that has freed them from their bonds of slavery and has grafted them into the vine of their salvation. Yet, Paul tells even those with a faith that has given them new life that they can be cut off, that they can fall from grace.

But this is off topic...would you mind starting a new thread for that, or maybe reading a few of the other OSAS / OSNAS threads that have been active lately?

My Fiancee's brother killed himself about three years ago. It was ruled accidental, but due to his mental state there was some debate. He was manic depressive / bi-polar and on heavy medication at the time of his death. Since her family had moved around a lot during her youth, he was my fiancee's best friend, as well as brother. His death effected her greatly.

During the short weeks after his death, she began hearing from members of the congregation of the Baptist Church she attended. Nice little comments like, "I'm sorry you're brother is in Hell," almost drove her over the edge. She left that congregation and never returned. I am glad she had the faith to leave, instead of sticking around to be tortured like that.

I find it odd that while her Baptist Church condemned him, my Catholic Church offered prayers for his rest with Christ. Growing up a Protestant I would have guessed it would be the other way around. I was pleased it was not.

Let us all remember those who have taken their own lives in our prayers tonight.

Neal

To Neal:

Let's remember in prayer not only those who have taken their own lives, let us also ask for comfort to the ones they left behind.

In my mind, the person who is so depressed, so despondent, to the point where he or she feels no other option besides death.... at the moment they leave this life, I believe that Jesus meets them with open arms, and says, "You don't have to hurt any more."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

As a matter of Doctrine, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Assemblies of God, all teach a falling from grace is possible. In the Catholic view, eternal life, which is irrevocable, is the inheritance that we recieve in Heaven. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given freely by grace through Christ, is what allows us to enter into Heaven and get the inheritance that is ours as adopted sons of the Father through Christ, the only Son.

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If eternal life is irrevocable, then how can you lose your salvation?

Once you die and are in heaven, your salvation is irrevocable. You can not be sure of salvation until you get to heaven (or Purgatory) (according to Catholic teaching).

Originally posted by s0uljah
You are confusing eternal life with salvation. Salvation means that we go to Heaven, instead of Hell. But in either place, we are always alive.

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I believe you are confusing eternal life with eternal death. Life in hell is no life at all. Surely, everyone receives eternal existence, but that's not the same as eternal life. Besides, I was responding to this:

In the Catholic view, eternal life, which is irrevocable, is the inheritance that we recieve in Heaven.

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He seems to indicate that eternal life is something you receive in heaven, something that can never be taken away. Therefore I say, if eternal life can never be taken away from you once you're saved, how do you lose your salvation? From the Catholic viewpoint, that is.

To Jetman:

Paul lists deadly sins in Galatians, chapter 5. He tells members there what sins of the flesh will cause them to lose the Kingdom of God.

God can never reject us, however WE can reject him. The same "Free Will" which gains us salvation can also be used to reject it. Even Paul talks of salvation as a journey, that he hopes to persevere until the end.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

The Catholic viewpoint is that our salvation depends on the state of our souls at the moment of our death. If someone were to die (God forbid) in a state of Mortal sin, we believe that soul would be condemned. If someone dies with venial sins, they take a detour in Purgatory, then go to Heaven.

Originally posted by VOW
To Jetman:

Paul lists deadly sins in Galatians, chapter 5. He tells members there what sins of the flesh will cause them to lose the Kingdom of God.

God can never reject us, however WE can reject him. The same "Free Will" which gains us salvation can also be used to reject it. Even Paul talks of salvation as a journey, that he hopes to persevere until the end.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

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The verses I've seen being quoted to support this idea do not, in my opinion, refer to Christians. In Galatians 5, Paul describes a number of sins and says that people who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. People, not Christians. Christians DON'T live like this unless their faith is false and they were never true Christians to begin with. Paul is talking about apostasy, a clear indicator that Christ has never dwelled in someone, rather than the loss of salvation. That is my take on it.

It seems to me that a salvation that can be lost is no salvation at all. What that says to me is that Christ's sacrifice wasn't great enough to save a person who accepts him once and for all, that Christ's power wasn't enough to overcome our sinful nature. After all, if what God has given can be taken away in the blink of an eye, what was the point of Christ's death?

P.S. VOW, feel free to use the quote button in the middle top of the post instead of writing "To namehere:" every time, it's a lot easier

This link may help. It explains things from the Catholic's point of view, and is kind of odd, but it is very comprehensive and should answer most questions you may have.

Assurance of Salvation????

Pax Vobiscum

Edit: Never mind, this isn't the odd one (I was thinking of a different article)

To Jetman:

I know how to use the "Quote" button, LOL.

And Paul is talking to the churchmembers in Galatians. Think of it this way. If they are NOT churchmembers, then EVERY sin is a deadly sin! The ONLY people who would be in jeopardy of losing the Kingdom of God are the ones who are on their way already!

If you are a sinner, you can forsake ALL the sins of the flesh, live a most-saintly life, and you still will not achieve Heaven. You CAN'T. Paul's remarks therefore are directed to the present Church members, telling them, "If you do these things, you WILL NOT ATTAIN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
To Jetman:

I know how to use the "Quote" button, LOL.

And Paul is talking to the churchmembers in Galatians. Think of it this way. If they are NOT churchmembers, then EVERY sin is a deadly sin! The ONLY people who would be in jeopardy of losing the Kingdom of God are the ones who are on their way already!

If you are a sinner, you can forsake ALL the sins of the flesh, live a most-saintly life, and you still will not achieve Heaven. You CAN'T. Paul's remarks therefore are directed to the present Church members, telling them, "If you do these things, you WILL NOT ATTAIN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

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I wouldn't equate being a churchmember with being a Christian. Certainly there are many who don't go to church who are saved while many who do are not.

Paul doesn't say "if 'you' do these things". He doesn't even say "if 'Christians' do these things". What he says is "those who live like this" will not inherit the kingdom of God. He is clearly referring to people outside the faith, and warning the churchmembers against such people and sins which might even be present in their own church. But I think it's a far stretch to use these verses to indicate that Paul is saying that whoever commits them will lose their salvation.

I suppose there's not much point in debating this further. If verses like these weren't wide open to interpretation, there wouldn't be a debate over the permanence of salvation. I will go my way, and you will go yours. But I can never accept a belief that tells me a good man can accept Christ as his savior, live his entire life for God, commit a single sin before he dies and be condemned to hell for it, mortal sin or not.

Originally posted by JeTmAn

...I suppose there's not much point in debating this further. If verses like these weren't wide open to interpretation, there wouldn't be a debate over the permanence of salvation....

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Which demonstrates the need for a central authority in the interpretation of scriptures...

To Jetman:

But I can never accept a belief that tells me a good man can accept Christ as his savior, live his entire life for God, commit a single sin before he dies and be condemned to hell for it, mortal sin or not

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According to your definition of a Christian, though, he's not able to commit that mortal sin, for you say he was never a Christian to begin with.

And let us remember that the ULTIMATE decision rests with God, for only He will know any extenuating circumstances behind the "mortal" sin. God knows what is in your heart, and will judge accordingly.

Consider this, Jetman: just as you have a problem with the "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" position, *I* have a problem with the "Once Saved, Always Saved" thought in that your "saved" individual can do ANYTHING after salvation, and just simply wave towards Heaven and say, "Hey, God, remember, I'm SAVED."

In the Catholic Church, when a person sins (after being "saved"), ALL SINS are offensive to God, and they hurt Him. It is our duty as His Children to apologize for those sins, and to repent. Repentance doesn't mean we do works to earn forgiveness; the forgiveness is always there. Repentance means we show our sorrow for grieving God, and we are remorseful for our wrongs.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

According to your definition of a Christian, though, he's not able to commit that mortal sin, for you say he was never a Christian to begin with.

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No, I was working from the Catholic definition...that's what I have the problem with.

And let us remember that the ULTIMATE decision rests with God, for only He will know any extenuating circumstances behind the "mortal" sin. God knows what is in your heart, and will judge accordingly.

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Very true, and this ties in with what I'll say next.

Consider this, Jetman: just as you have a problem with the "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" position, *I* have a problem with the "Once Saved, Always Saved" thought in that your "saved" individual can do ANYTHING after salvation, and just simply wave towards Heaven and say, "Hey, God, remember, I'm SAVED."

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I don't see it as a "Get out of hell free card". I believe a lot of people who say they have been saved and even act like it for a while, maybe even a long time, are not. A person who has been saved by God has the Holy Spirit in him/her. That person WILL follow God for the rest of his/her life. That's not to say the person will never falter or stumble, but a truly saved person will be a slave to the Lord for the rest of that person's life. If I said a prayer when I was 10, and lived a life of sin ever after, that means nothing. It's lip service. True faith bears fruit.

In the Catholic Church, when a person sins (after being "saved"), ALL SINS are offensive to God, and they hurt Him. It is our duty as His Children to apologize for those sins, and to repent. Repentance doesn't mean we do works to earn forgiveness; the forgiveness is always there. Repentance means we show our sorrow for grieving God, and we are remorseful for our wrongs.

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From what I understand, the root of the definition of the word "repentance" means literally "to go the other way", to turn away from sin. Now, I do believe that God grieves when we sin, even after we are saved, but I do not believe that our salvation is so paper-thin that it can be taken away because we make a mistake. A true Christian WILL eventually repent of their sins, and get closer to God whereas while they are in sin, they are not as close to God. But their salvation is still intact. I believe that, once saved, sins do not affect God's ETERNAL outlook concerning the sinner, merely the temporary one.

Jetman, both Romans 11 and Galatians 5 that I quoted earlier refer to people who have been set free from the bonds of slavery, which we know can only be done through Christ. The NIV I quoted doesn't translate Galatians like the RSV which says, "you have been severed from Christ." To be severed, you must have once been a part of Him, and Him you, just as Romans 11 says those who do not endure faithfully will be cut off from the vine that they have been grafted into. We were grafted in through Christ, and if we remain faithful we will get the fruit of that vine.

Therefore I say, if eternal life can never be taken away from you once you're saved, how do you lose your salvation?

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We can only enter Heaven if we are in a State of
Grace, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Through Mortal Sin, we can deny that Spirit and reject it and the gifts which go with it, the most important being communion with Christ. Hence Galatians 5:4 "you have fallen from grace." Without communion with Christ, we cannot claim to be adopted sons of the Father, and upon our death we will not have any claim to the inheritance that was once ours, Eternal Life in Heaven.

Your statement that you receive eternal life when you are saved is not a part of the Catholic Faith. We believe you claim that life only at death. Grace and Communion with Christ can be experienced in this life, though, through the Sacraments and other means. The Catholic sees life as a growth in Holiness after our conversion, a groth that doesn't stop, and in fact can reverse if we allow it.

Neal

But I can never accept a belief that tells me a good man can accept Christ as his savior, live his entire life for God, commit a single sin before he dies and be condemned to hell for it, mortal sin or not.

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Didn't Adam and Eve, who were sinless and communed with God, only commit one sin to banish them from Paradise?

Neal

To Jetman:

Paul is talking about apostasy, a clear indicator that Christ has never dwelled in someone, rather than the loss of salvation. That is my take on it.

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Actually, this is true, but the definition of apostacy is ABANDONMENT of your religion. You have to have something before you abandon it.

I am also deeply troubled by your reasoning that a person who is truly saved cannot experience this severance from faith. If you were to talk to a Death Row prisoner and find out that he had been "saved" as a child, but had been led away from his religion by bad company, to tell him that he hadn't "really been saved" to begin with is telling him his original feelings were not real. How can you possibly KNOW that they weren't?

People are NOT logical. In a perfect world, yes, they would stay the course, they would live sincere lives and reflect their relationship with God, and let the Holy Spirit shine through their lives. But people are basically STUPID. They will throw away opportunities and abandon wonderful lives, for ridiculous reasons. All you have to do is look around you for examples!

The idea of being able to reconcile after we admit to doing foolish things which jeopardize our relationship with God is one of the most human, most compassionate teachings of the Catholic Church.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by isshinwhat


As a matter of Doctrine, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Assemblies of God, all teach a falling from grace is possible. In the Catholic view, eternal life, which is irrevocable, is the inheritance that we recieve in Heaven. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, given freely by grace through Christ, is what allows us to enter into Heaven and get the inheritance that is ours as adopted sons of the Father through Christ, the only Son.

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I should have differeniated between what is taught as doctrine and what people actually believe. My Church is Lutheran and I know OSAS is rejected--but I know people who go to my Church who believe that salvation can never be lost.

I personally don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that falling away isn't possible. I'm glad to know that as a matter of doctrine OSNAS is widley taught. Thanks for correcting me, Neal.

Michelle