How Preterism Changes our Mindset

How Preterism Changes our Mindset

I would like to start a thread on a slightly different matter. Instead of preterists presenting proofs that the preterist view is correct, I would like us to ask “What is next?” If we embrace Preterism, how should it change our mindset and indeed our lives? And an even greater question, “How can covenant eschatology change the mindset of the church?”

I would like to present several areas for discussion, and all are welcome to add others. How can fulfilled eschatology change our minds concerning:

1. The presence of God

2. Satan

3. Kings and Priests (Could Preterism help restore the fact that we are both priests AND kings to the church? Could it change our mindset from those waiting for the reign of the Anti-Christ to one of those who reign upon the earth? And what does it mean to reign with Him? Don’t you dare tell me it means that we get whatever we want or the prosperity gospel. Try the Colossians 1:16-17 viewpoint.)

4. Striving and Rest (Could fulfilled eschatology take us from a “Pentecost mindset” or a “there but not yet” view concerning the kingdom to a “Feast of Tabernacles mindset” or a viewpoint of current triumph and rest? Could it change our mindset from obtaining to having the kingdom?)

5.Maturity (According to Paul in I Corinthians 3:1-4 the difference between being mature and immature in the Lord is the difference between being carnal and spiritual. Could Preterism help the church “grow up?”)

Have fun.

Ozark

One of the advantages to starting a new thread is that you get to have first crack at it. I would like to examine Preterism and the presence of God. I know I am probably going to catch it for some of the things I say, so it is probably good that we cannot through rocks over the internet.

In the churches I have attended in the past, we viewed God more as one who visits us rather than one who abides constantly with us. In other words, we viewed His presence as something that comes and goes or as a place we come into and go out of. We may have said otherwise, but our actions showed this is what we believed about God in our hearts.

I have seen people use many methods to “get the Lord to come down.” I have used such methods myself. For example, I have seen repentance movements that seem to imply that Christ doesn’t want to be associated with us in our current state. Therefore, we have to repent and confess our every sin. (I have actually heard people teach that if we forget to confess one, God will withdraw Himself!) If we do this well enough then Jesus will come and be with us for awhile. He is a Holy God and we must become holy if we are to be with Him. Never mind that true holiness is not a behavior but a Person who dwells in us and the fact that we are holy because we have Him!

I have seen movements where worship was the necessary ingredient to get into God’s presence. If we worship the Lord for long periods of time, He will “show up” and do wonderful things among us. After all, we are to “Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise.” Never mind the context of such a statement, and that using it as we do implies that under the New Covenant God presence is still a place we come into and go out of.

I have seen and been involved in movements where prayer was considered the key to God’s presence and favor. If we have very long hours of prayer (around the clock 24 hrs is especially good.) and have large numbers of people praying, then God will take notice and come down. I remember studying the Welsh Revival. Its boast was that as people prayed “heaven came down.” It was a great revival, but it quickly faded.

I am not saying the above works are bad or should not be done. I am saying there are better works to trust in to gain God’s presence. What if God’s people came to realize the works it took to get God not only to visit us but also to abide with us already happened? And they are not our own works but Christ’s finished works. Jesus said,

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25 through John 11:26 (NKJV)

Oh that the church would get over the carnal understanding that this has anything to do with the physical body. Death in God’s eyes has always been separation from Him. Nothing more, nothing less. Death was abolished at the cross, and the victory of the cross was fully realized at the Parousia (I Corinthians 15). This means separation from God has been abolished for all who will believe on Him. Far from God is a place we never go, and in His presence is a place we always are.

Where is God? An Old Testament Jew would have answered that question by pointing at the Tabernacle. This was the house of God. It was known to the Jews as the place where heaven touched earth. We know now that God has destroyed the earthly Tabernacle so that His new creation Tabernacle which is the church can become preeminent.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God… (Revelation 21:9-11 NKJV).

What was John beholding? Was it some literal cubic city floating in the air. No, it was in the angel’s own words “the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” This holy city is here today—the city that has the glory of God, and this holy city is us, his church. There is a new place where heaven touches earth. The Christian sees it every time he looks in the mirror.

Moreover, we, by God’s own doing, are in Christ seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6). Therefore, because we are the new creation, God is where we are always. Because we are in Christ, we are where God is. Should we ever again wonder about the presence of God?

Ozark

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Ozark,

Is this the place to ask why partial preterists and futurists cannot agree with your post? My church is teaching what you said almost word for word, but they're also studying Revelation in Sunday School from a futurist standpoint. (Truth is, they probably have never heard of preterism!)

Click to expand...

Didaskomenos,

You make a very good observation. I do believe it is possible to hold all the above conclusions and still be a futurist. In fact, I know some futurists who would agree whole heartedly with everything I said. Not too long ago I had the opportunity to teach about how Jesus has abolished death both for the living and the righteous inhabitants of Sheol, defeated the Devil, and established His kingdom on the earth to a group of strangers. One gentleman in the back got so excited that I thought he was going to get up and do a dance. Afterwards, that same gentleman came up to me and started to talk about how wonderful Hal Lindsey is. I only smiled.

I think the only way a person can hold both beliefs is perhaps to compartmentalize his eschatology and his views on salvation and then never try to mix the two. If someone holds a completed view of salvation and the kingdom of God and then tries to mix those beliefs with futurism which relegates the kingdom of God to a future dispensation, he can end up a bit schizophrenic. Moreover, it leaves one in a quandary about the Devil. He is defeated yet not really according to the futurist view. If the Devil is crushed beneath the feet of the church, why are we so confident in him? Futurism leaves us with the fact that we are priests to God, but it seems to take away the fact that we are also kings (Rev. 1:4-6). These are only a few of the problems that arise. The futurist view leaves us with a somewhat anemic salvation.

Personally, over the years I came to conclude that our salvation is complete, and it is most glorious. Yet, when I combined this with completed eschatology the result was like dynamite.

Ozark

Humblejoe,

As you probably know Preterism is one of the four major schools of thought concerning the interpretation of prophesy. The four majors are futurism, idealist, historistic, and preterist. The preterist viewpoint is on the opposite end of the eschatological spectrum from futurism. While futurism states that all prophesy concerning the end times is yet to be fulfilled, Preterism says it all has already been fulfilled including the book of Revelation. Preterists believe that the end times are not the end of the world but the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant. It concludes that Satan is crushed beneath the feet of the church, Death has been abolished for all who believe (Spiritual death or separation from God.), and yes, Jesus has returned and is now enthroned in the midst of His new Israel which is the church and now reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the earth. It is the most joyous and victorious of the major eschatological viewpoints, and it is the least kind to Satan. Its other names such as Covenant Eschatology, fulfilled eschatology, or completed eschatology help us understand what it is all about.

Because it is so different than futurism, it is a shock to most people. I was on my third book on the subject before I embraced it, and I found it to be a life changing experience. Most are not as stubborn as me, but I wanted to be sure. When we study the time reference passages in the New Testament, Preterism is simply hard to deny. It becomes obvious all the apostles expected and were earnestly awaiting a first century return of the Lord. Jesus Himself said in many places that those who stood before Him would see His kingdom come and the Lord's judgment upon Old Covenant Israel. Plus, when we look at the time statements of the book of Revelation and realize that this book is apocalyptic literature similar to that of the Old Testament, it becomes clear that this book is not about the end of the world, and that its conclusions are largely spiritual realities not carnal.

If you really want to understand preterism, it will take some effort on your part. You probably won't grasp it in an evening. Yet, I believe it is well worth the effort. I can give you some resources if you want. This link is a good outline of the reasoning behind preterism. Hope this helps.

http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

Ozark

I once knew a brother in the Lord who said “While some people see a demon behind every tree, I see ten.” This same guy said that he once cast a devil out of his dishwasher, and it started working again. (I wonder if I should try that with Windows ME?) We can probably see how fulfilled eschatology can change this mindset.

While some preterists disagree on the status of the Devil towards the unbelieving, all agree that the Christian’s victory is utter and absolute. In fact, he cannot touch us. As our own brother Davo says “Salvation is not a battle but a banquet.”

I have Manifestation1*AD70’s permission to quote some marvelous posts he made on another board concerning the current status of Satan. See what you all think. By the way, Happy Birthday brother!

Manifestation wrote:

Here is my in put. Lest go back in the book of beginnings, after man sinned, where we will see the terms of the curse placed on Satan as stated by God. He speaks first to the serpent saying...you are cursed more than all cattle, and beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and "you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Genes 3:14)NKJV Emphasis mine. The "dust that Satan is cursed to eat all the days of his life is not the sand of this material planet, for he is a spiritual being. Then the question is what other dust on this earth could a spiritual being be cursed to eat?

God formed "man of the dust" of the ground", Genesis 2:7,3:19 and it is this dust that the serpent is cursed to `eat' all the days of his life. But is there any scripture to support that idea? Let's now turn to the prophet Isaiah and look at an astounding passage of Scripture. In chapter sixty-five, beginning in verse seventeen, the prophet extols the glories of the new covenant, which is known as the heaven and earth. It is highly figurative language showing the blessing of the "new covenant" in contrast to God's Judgment (as seen in the preceding verses). It is in the last two verses that we find our scriptural support which reads.

`It shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, "and dust shall be the serpent's food." They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,' says the LORD. (Isaiah 65:24.25) These glorious statements that symbolize peace and joy in God's presence under the new covenant, also include a phrase that would seem unrelated. It says,....and dust shall be the serpent's food.

How can we reconcile this statement with the glories of the heavenly city? Notice it says they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,' says the LORD. These Scriptures testify that Satan, and the curse,pain,sorrow, and crying have on part of the new heaven and earth. They are forever removed! Isaiah tells us that Satan is still under the edict of the Genesis curse even after the consummated new heavens and new earth.

The only place left to him then is where there is "dust." Remember, God told the serpent he had to eat dust all the days of his life (existence). (Gen.3:140) Because Satan is a fallen angel (a spirit),he is immortal.

While it is true! Satan endures the torments of the lake of fire and brimstone which means he is out of the presence of God removed forever. And can never again have any influence on the inhabitants of the holy city which is a "burning, eternal torment to him. It is equally true, as foreseen by the prophet Isaiah, that dust shall be the serpent's food. We see Satan's influence on the unsaved in this material world, and we will continue to see this as long as we wear these flesh and blood bodies.

And on the other hand because of mans sin nature, he does not need any influence from Satan to kill his brother because unsaved man is wicked in his heart. The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. Psalms 37:32

Christ crushed Satan beneath the feet of His saints long ago (Romans 16:20). All we have only to walk in the Spirit on that victory ground.