Not sure where we fit... (same)

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OnederWoman

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OK everyone, we've kinda been on this merry-go-round before... but, in case there is any new insight out there... well, I always love to hear the opinions and ideas you guys and girls give.

So... even after living here for 16 months now we have still not found a church home. Back home we went to a non-denominational church, which though not perfect (because no church is perfect) was a wonderful place for us where we could learn and grow and were we knew we were (and still are) loved (as we are, with our good points and our flaws). Our latest experiance has kinda gotten us down a little... not that we don't still know who we are in the Lord, just that we're finding it hard to think we'll ever find a church where we'll fit.

This time I'm just going to lay out our basic beliefs... (note: none of the comments made are meant to put down anyones beliefs, not at all, just stating where we are at in our beliefs and where we aren't).

God: We believe in the one triune God who is infinite, eternal, almighty, and perfect in holiness, truth and love. The trinity is made of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are co-existant, co-equal and co-eternal. Each person of ht etirnity is completely unique, yet the 3 are 1.

Jesus: is the only begotten son of God, the eternal Word made flesh, supernaturally conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He is both fully God and fully man. He died on the cross for all mankind, was burried and rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father where he intercedes for his people and rules as Lord of all. He will return and the dead shall rise and the those alive in Christ will be transformed. He will judge with just and the unjust. Etc.

The Bible: We believe the Bible is true, literal and infallible. The creation story as well as other stories are literal.

Communion: Was instituted by Jesus at Passover. The elements are symbolic. The Lord's supper is open to all who believe Jesus is the Christ.

Salvation: We lean towards Calvinism in this area. We believe that God chose those who would be saved, the elect, before the foundations of the world. We believe all the elect will be saved and that the elect cannot lose their salvation. However, while we believe in predestination... it is mostly concerning Salvation. We do recognize scirptures that speak of making choices... we believe that these scriptures are speaking to the elect, that once saved there is a degree at least of free will, where we have to choose to serve God and show the fruits of our salvation. Salvation though is not by free will, if it were our choice it would be a work and we are not saved by works.

Eternity: We believe that the Bride of Christ will reign with Jesus forever... there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Satan, the fallen angels and those who didn't believe in Christ during their earthly lives will be eternally seperated from God (we lean towards a literal hell which is eternal, though we've heard some interesting arguement that the punishment is for a time and then they just cease... but, this is a mute point for us as beleivers).

Baptism: Is to be of the believer, by immersion. Not of infants. Those it should be open for children who have reached the age of understanding (which may or may not vary from child to child, not sure) and who have come to know the Lord Jesus as their savior (basically saying you don't have to be an 18 or older adult to be baptised, just a believer, old enough to understand salvation).

Gifts and Miracles: We believe neither have ceased, but are alive today. (we do see the gifts abused and faked often though and therefore tend to steer away from "overly" pentecostalish type churches, churches that are disorderly (God is a God of order, not chaos). (We also avoid churches that are into the "name it claim it"/word of faith/kingdom now kind of stuff). Saying all that... we have witnessed the gifts in action and know that they are NOT all faked, but the the Holy Spirit can and does truely move through His people to bless and edify indiviuals and the body of Christ. (Oh, and whereas Tongues are fine... they are not an absolute requirment to "prove" one is Spirit Filled).

Men and Women: were both created in Gods image and have equal value and worth in Gods site. However, we lean towards women not being in leadership positions, such as Pastor, which places them in authority over men. My Mom is a minister, and I basically leave that as... God spoke to her as to what He wanted her to do with her life, He has not told me otherwise, so I have been loving and supportive of my Mom. We do visit her church when we are visiting them. But, when finding a church home for ourselves, we would not choose a church with a woman as pastor.

On social issures:

Homosexuality: Is a sin and not an acceptable lifestyle... especially for church leadership. Those who live the homosexual lifestyle are just sinners, like the rest of us. And like other sinners, we should treat them with the love of Christ and pray for their repentance and salvation.

Divorce: Is not Gods best for us. But is permissable when for reasons such as given in scripture... though it should still be as a last resort. Still, God does not love the divorcee any less. And the person can be forgiven and restored. Those who have been divorced and remarried can still love and serve God and be mightly used by Him for His glory, just as the rest of us.

Birth control and Fertility treatments: Non-abortive methods to avoid pregnancy are fine, though couples should be cautious of their motives behind limiting the size of their families. Children are a gift from the Lord. Couples who have to seek medical help to conceive should do so. But, methods that would require the destruction of a baby at any stage beyond conception (when the sperm fertilizes the egg) should be avoided. If a large number of multiples aren't wanted, a method that could create them should be avoided.

Abortion: All life is precious and should be protected from conception through old age. Aborting a baby for convienance is murder (though we must remember that women who have gone through an abortion are hurting and need forgiveness and salvation). In a case where both Mother and baby will die and there is a chance to save the Mother... the case should be looked at on it's own basis and prayed over (though quick prayers may be needed)... the life of both Mother and Baby is precious and all that can be done to save both should be done.

and personal issues: (though we do not judge those who do otherwise, we have personal convictions concernign the following and it is how we do things for our family)

As a family we have made the personal decision to not celebrate Halloween, though we have participated in church sponsored events such as Hallelujah Night and Fall Fest... make-believe and dress-up is not a sin and neither is having fun in the Lord... the main thing for us is not giving any glory to Satan and not promoting things that are scary or gory.

We do not do the Easter Bunny, Santa or the Tooth Fairy. While make-believe is ok an a good imagination is a healthy thing... we choose to keep make-belive what it is, fiction. We do not call something that is fiction the truth. God is true, Jesus is real... these other things are not. We do presents and even a tree at Christmas, and Santa cartoons are allowed... we are just clear on the fact that Santa is a story. We have begun to incorporate Hanukah into our December activities and use it to teach about how Jesus is the Light of the World. We do not celebrate "Easter" and feel that there is scriptural evidence for this. We do however celebrate Passover and the Resurrection of Jesus... we avoid the Bunny and things that are pagan in origin that have been incorporated into tradtional "Easter" celebrations. (we are still working this out for our family since our extended famiyl still does "Easter"). While we have been studying the Jewish festivals for ourselves and our family and have been slowly incorporating them into our lives... we do not feel led to attend a Messianic church and we are fine with going to a church that does Easter (for we know that born again Christians are right in their hearts and celebrating the resurrection of our Lord to the best of their ability and they don't Have to Have the same convictions as we do).

Well... that's the basics for us.

Anyone know where we would fit in?
 

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Well, I'd say you have a pretty sound set of beliefs, though I will say that I personally disagree with one of them (Not that you were asking for disagreements though ;)).

As far as where you'd fit in best, I may come across sounding a bit biased but being that you're not wholly adverse to the idea of God sovereignly odaining and ensuring the salvation of His elect my suggestion would be to try to find an othodox Presbyterian church (PCA, not PCUSA). I will tell you that while I am in full agreement with their beliefs I personally struggle a bit with the traditionalistic form of praise music. Some are very traditional, i.e., little or no musical accompaniment, and some are a bit more contemporary in their inclusion of musical accompaniment, but still tend to limit it to a piano or organ. And, most of the PCA type churches I've been to stick almost exclusively to singing traditional Psalter hymns. If this is not a problem for you I encourage you to check them out. In my experience they have the most biblically reliable doctrinal position of any particular denomination, which is clearly the most important thing about a church.

God bless and good luck,
Don
 
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Momzilla

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I was also going to suggest Presbyterian, and if there is an orthodox branch of the Presbyterian church, then you might try that first.

May I make a suggestion? You and your husband clearly know where you stand on matters of faith and morals, and that's wonderful. You may have trouble finding a church that meets all those criteria, however. You might want to consider making a list of "non-negotiables"--beliefs your church must absolutely share. Then, rank the others in order of importance. For example, you don't believe in infant baptism, but could you stomach a church that practiced it, if it had all the non-negotiables and some of the others?

Good luck in your search.
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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I would suggest an Othodox Presbyterian church as well. I assume that Orthodox and reformed are basically the same. I'm not fully convinced of infant baptsism, but their doctrine is rock solid. The particular RPC I attend, demographically speaking, tends to be highly conservative, intellectual people who are eager to study doctrine and are geared towards a strong fellowship with the Lord. The pastor's doctrine is very much reformed, his sermons are wonderful. I'd suggest anyone who enjoys listening to good reformed sermons try our website at rpc.sermonaudio.com
 
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OnederWoman

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Oh... I want to add these...

We are not into leagalism...

While dh is trying to quit smoking... I'm not sure whether it's a sin. I definatley think smokers can and are used by God and should not be excluded from being involved in church ministries.

We believe drunkness is a sin and drinking too much should be avoided for sure... but, it is NOT a sin to have a glass of wine with a meal (or beer, or whatever drink you might like for that matter).

While we think we should have standards for how we live our lives, and those being according to the Word of God... we do not care for signing a contract of any sort stating we will live by a set of rules and standards that are clearly manmade (see recent thread on protestant board).

We have made choices in what is acceptable entertainment for us as a couple and then for us as a family. We do not agree with basing choices for say... movies... on things such as ratings. There are R movies that we think are ok for adults to see, including Passion of the Christ... and then there are G, PG and PG-13 movies that we do not find acceptable for us or our children. We have made the personal choice to listen soley to Christian music on the radio... and the majority of of CD purchases are Christian in genre (though we do have some movie sound tracks... and well, I have the Beatles 1 CD. lol). I don't fault those who listen to secular music... for one I don't think it's all bad or inappropriate... though I think Christians and definately parents should screen the lyrics on albums for themselves and their children.

And... on healing... we believe God can heal most definately. However... we believe it is wrong to tell someone that they are not healed because they lack faith. I know people with disabilities who may never be physically healed on this Earth... but who probably have more faith than I will ever have. Disabilities and illnesses can be used to the glory of God in multiple ways. We think that the focus on healing should be more on healing people first spiritually and them emotionally, and when it's Gods will, physically. We also believe that God can bless in so many ways other than through material things... and while we certainly accept and praise God where we have been blessed in material ways, He is not required to do so in order to gain my faith and love for Him.... I would much rather focus on blessings that will be for eternity than ones that will only be temporary on Earth.
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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It sounds like you are very well grounded in the Bible. May I again suggest trying some of my pastor's sermons. Here is a link, the other one is wrong, http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...urrSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Mark^Gibson

As to the smoking and drinking issue, the sermon titled Liberty of Conscience may give you an idea of where most Presbyterian churches stand on the issue. Its actually quite hilarious.
 
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OnederWoman

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lol I have considered the PCA Presbyterian church... (after all, we prefer that type of church gov't... the non-denominational church we went to back home actually didn't have a single "Pastor" over the church, but believes in plurality of Elders and currently has 3 Elders... and then a bunch of Decons). But, so far I haven't been able to convince DH to become one of the "Frozen Chosen" lol as my SIL puts it (she grew up Presbyterian). Also... dh is afraid they might be overly traditional.

-------------------------------------------

Our absolutes for a church are:

They are Bible believing... believing that the Bible is true and literal, with beliefs on creation and social issues being based on what the Word says... so basically, creationist, pro-life, conservative in general and believing homosexuality is a sin (but with a positive "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality... and not the "hate all homosexuals" kinda thinking).

Must share the core beliefs concerning the Trinity and the deity of Christ... and that Jesus will come a second time.

Communion considered symbolic (we would not be comfortable having our children taught otherwise).

And a male Pastor (at least over that church, even if the denomination allows women pators).

CANNOT be into Name-it-Claim-it, Word of Faith or Kingdom Now.... OR Legalism (we'll never see a glass of wine as a sin, and I like wearing pants! lol)

Preferrable things would be:

Believer Baptism or at least hold the option to let parents choose to have their children wait for Baptism until they themselves are believers.

The church doesn't have to be predominately Calvinist... but having an acceptance that there are scriptures that lean in the direction of predestination or at least being accepting of those who believe that way would be best.

Spirit-filled would be nice, but again... as long as they don't shun those who believe the gifts have not ceased we'd be ok (and better still, if there is at least a few other spirit-filled believers, even in a small minority, that would be nice).

The biggest thing about attending a church that may not beleive 100% as we do on the small things is that there are people like us that don't mind that others have differing opinioins. Where people can discuss their beliefs (backing them up with scripture) and not get mad, upset, or offended because they can't swing us their way. We dont' expect everyone to believe as we do just because we've told them so... and we prefer they don't feel we need "converting" either. However... we know we are not perfect... and if God can use someone else to show us, through scripture a new truth (or where we might be wrong)... then PRAISE THE LORD! And the same goes if God uses us to show, through scripture, His truth.
 
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Reformationist

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Still sounding like a orthodox Presbyterian church is the way to go for you. Just as a heads up, OP churches tend to encourage the baptism of infants. They are reformed in their doctrines so they are NOT of the belief that baptism is our works based way of God imparting His grace, i.e., salvation by water baptism. They just believe it is part of the covenant between God and His people, much the same way circumcision was in the Abrahamic covenant. They profess the biblical truths of reformed Christianity and all that I have been priviledged to attend are grounded in the same truths that John Calvin taught.

Though they are generally conservative I have not encountered any legalistic teaching, though, of course, all people are occasionally prone to that type of mindset.

I pray that the Lord will bless you in your search and that He will light your path and guide you to some good, sound teaching.

God bless,
Don
 
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Wilfred of Ivanhoe

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To add to what Reformationists has said, which is always well founded in Biblical truth, the OP or RPC look upon infant baptism as a continuation of the covenant of circumcision. Being circumsised, as noted above, is merely showing a covenent with God and his people, it does not imply salvation. I am not 100% sold on infant baptism but I almost consider it a matter of indifference since RPC does not claim infant baptism necessary for salvation.

onederwoman, does your husband (which is I assume what DH means) consider Calvanistic doctrines to be as you state, frozen chosen? I've heard this term before but only related to "hyper-Calvanism", a belief that God simply saves apart from his means of grace. This belief states that you could be elect and not even know it.
 
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Bulldog

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I also would suggest an Orthodox Presbyterian church, as it sounds the closest to what you believe. I believe the two largest ones are The Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Prebyterian Church in America. You can be assured that both will be conservative, since they both broke off of other Presbyterian Churches (who united and became the liberal PCUSA) because of theological liberalism.
 
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Lotar said:
Doesn't the OPC and PCA believe in spiritual presence, as opposed to purely symbolic?


Sounds to me like she's a Reformed Baptist. ;)

Yes they do. I would say that most people's hesitancy is due to their lack of knowledge about Calvin's teachings on the Eucharist. Luther himself is reported to have said (though I cannot cite the text off the top of my head) that if Calvin's view on the Lord's Supper had been presented twelve years earlier there would never have been any disagreement amongst the reformers on this issue, which leads me to believe that he would have had no trouble submitting to it himself.

Just out of curiosity, do most Lutherans submit to consubstantiation as the proper biblical interpretation?

Thanks,
God bless
 
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Bulldog

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Reformationist said:
Just out of curiosity, do most Lutherans submit to consubstantiation as the proper biblical interpretation?

Consubstination. But then again, Lutherans aren't known for being biblical. ;) :D

I do not think thre is a Lutheran church that does not teach consubstination.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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I always interpreted the term "Frozen Chosen" to mean very rigid in worship...you know, no hands in the air, traditional hymns vs. foot-tappin' contemporary worship music, no clapping...during singing (doesn't work all that well with hymns anyway ;) ) or after the choir performs, only the most polite laughter even if the pastor says something hysterical during the sermon.

I worship with the Frozen Chosen. Not my preference but it works for most in the congregation. (But sometimes I rebel...I may utter an impromptu Amen during the sermon. I laugh out loud when something intentionally funny is said and at the very end of the service...when the Pastor says "Go in peace loving and serving the Lord" and we respond "Thanks be to God" I raise my hands in praise. It only mildly freaks out the rest of the brethren. :D )

Rose
 
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