Gays march through Jerusalem

seebs

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Originally posted by stillsmallvoice
Hi all!
Let's see, seebs asked about what other branches of Judaism have to say on homosexuality. Well, since I am an orthodox Jew, I can't & won't try to speak for other Jews. Traditional, normative Judaism is orthodox. (Regarding other so-called "branches" of Judaism, such as "Conservative", "Reform", "Reconstructionist", etc., I'll say that while most of their members may be Jews, what they practice is surely not Judaism.) Yes, the ancient Canaanites practiced both heterosexual & homosexual "sacred" temple prostitution, but the ban on homosexual acts in Leviticus 18:22 is both sweeping & definitive. And if the ban on homosexual acts is related to Canaanite practices, what of it? Leviticus 18:3 warns against against Egyptian & Canaanite practices. Leviticus 17:24-30 warns us that the Land of Israel "vomited out" the Canaanites for their abominable practices & that we must avoid those practices if we want to avoid a similar fate.

Yes. The tricky part, of course, is trying to understand whether God meant gays or temple prostitutes, just as we might wonder whether He meant *all* fabric combinations, or only specific combinations of fabric... I understand and respect the decision to say "since we can't be sure, we will read this broadly"; it's the same principle that goes from "do not steep a kid in its mother's milk" to separate pots for dairy and meat. And it's a *reasonable* principle - but it's not the way Christianity generally approaches moral questions.


You posted:
"As long as people are telling them that what they *ARE* is sinful..."

But Judaism believes that no one is sinful because of what they are, only because of what they may DO. The wording of Leviticus 17:22 is very precise & refers to homosexual ACTS.

Indeed. And, furthermore, arguably, only to some of them - for instance, it says nothing at all about lesbians. To make it say such a thing is to reinterpret it in the face of new data, and if we're doing that, it's open season on all sorts of things.

Still, I have friends who believe that homosexual acts are sinful, and who are otherwise fully supportive of non-discriminatory treatment of gays.

In the end, if we're to use Leviticus to show that homosexuality is sinful, we have to accept the whole of the Law; we can't just pick and choose. I have a lot more respect for Jews who choose to continue holding to the whole of the law than I do for televangelists who preach about "[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s" as a way to draw attention away from their scandals.

I still remember the first time I was exposed to that point of view, by someone who commented that, well, of *COURSE* it was a sin, just like mixing fabrics, eating cheeseburgers, or not honoring the Sabbath.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi seebs!

First, our Sages teach that the Torah's prohibition of lesbian acts is subsumed under Leviticus 18:3 ("After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein you dwelled, you shall not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, you shall not do; neither shall you walk in their statutes").

You posted: "Still, I have friends who believe that homosexual acts are sinful, and who are
otherwise fully supportive of non-discriminatory treatment of gays."

Am I one of these friends?

Cheeseburgers? Mmm...I remember eating those back before my movie-theater-epiphany in late 1985. (Qouth Homer: "Ahhhhhh......")

Be well!

ssv
 
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Sauron

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Originally posted by Susan
No! HE would not look out for people flaunting their sins.
He would only look out for them if it were a repentance rally.
How dare people unrepentantly practicing immorality defile the Holy City in such a way?
Why didn't they march through Ramallah instead. :mad:


Why would you say that?

If they live in Jerusalem, wouldn't they want to march where they live?
:confused:

They all deserve an eternity in you-know-where.

That's what I respect about christians: they're so full of concern and love. :rolleyes:
 
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Sauron

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Originally posted by Kristen
My sister is gay and I have 2 gay uncles...what makes you a expert on homosexuality Seebs? I know people are not born born to be homosexual. I have first hand knowledge.

No, you do not. You have family members that are gay; that means at most you have second-hand knowledge.

To get first-hand knowledge, you would have to be gay or lesbian. That's what "first-hand" means: to experience it yourself.

What do your family members say about being gay? Born that way, or did they just wake up one day and decide, "I'll try being homosexual today - sounds like fun"?
 
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Sauron

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams


Obviously out of context. Here is a more complete picture of what Adams thought about church and state:

We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be separated. Adieu. (John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825.
 
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chickenman

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"Dear B., You appear to be highly defensive at other message posters other then me, too. I understand because the atheist position is a difficult postion to defend, indeed.

Once again, I am not so inclined to post messages as you think I should nor am I to be lured into a confrontation with you for individuals supporting the atheist belief system have one heck of a time attempting to state what they belief and why, it is much easier to stand as a martyr and tell of how one is being bullied."

Its not hard to be an atheist, or to defend an atheist belief. Its not hard at all, and smug christians such as yourself make it even easier
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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"That's what I respect about christians: they're so full of concern and love."

My question is how can people that disobey God in all openess be loving? How is disrespecting God being loving? It's funny when a Christian wants to obey our Father we arn't loving but if we are willing to disobey God and say nothing about people flaunting their sin we become loving. Makes no sense.

Concern. Sure they didn't use the best words there but I'm sure they are concerned as other Christians are about their salvation. I don't want to see anyone going to hell. That's more concerned then someone that just keeps quiet and allows a person to suffer eternity in hell.

Now who's really showing no love and concern? Hmmmmmmm.
 
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