Should Christians totally abstain from alcohol? (2)

Cliff2 said:

The "not" has been left out of the post.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Cliff2, for making that correction. Sometimes you eyes don't pick up every word until afterwards.

little_tigress said:

where does it say we will drink grape juice show me a specific reference.

have you taken my advice and read post number 5?

Click to expand...

In Luke 22:15-19 is desribes the last passover that Jesus celebrated with his disciples, note where Jesus said: "For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes". The bread that was used in the passover was unleavened, because it represented the pure nature of Jesus' character, without sin. Therefore it would make sense that wine was the pure juice of grapes that were not feremented to be consistent in the representation of Jesus' blood which was pure as well.

That is why I said what I said in my earlier post.

BrightCandle said:

In Luke 22:15-19 is describes the last passover that Jesus celebrated with his disciples, note where Jesus said: "For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes". The bread that was used in the passover was unleavened, because it represented the pure nature of Jesus' character, without sin. Therefore it would make sense that wine was the pure juice of grapes that were not feremented to be consistent in the representation of Jesus' blood which was pure as well.

That is why I said what I said in my earlier post.

Click to expand...

Why do you assume drinking wine (fermented) is a sin? Alcohol cleanses grape juice does not. If you're looking for symbolism try that. Don't you see you are imputing your mind set on God's Word? If you want to discuss sin and the temptation to sin how about the temptation to bend and twist the word of God to fit our own ideology, despite the overwhelming preponderance of evidence to the contrary?

If you want to see Jesus in a position to get tempted look at him letting the prostitute wash his feet with her hair. Now I'd need a drink to deal with that! In fact, I'm celibate, and alcohol has the effect of turning down certain flames. But if some woman was washing my bare feet with her hair, well lets just say I might be set ablaze.

Jesus didn't have a problem with it though. What do you think the religious people today would say if some so called holy man let a street prostitute kiss his naked feet and clean them with her hair?

I'll tell you, Jesus would be rejected because of the self righteous piety of the religious people today, just like he was back then. Taste not, touch not, handle not, etc., etc.

BTW just like the unleavened bread wine has no yeast in it. Though yeast and the sugar of the grape are what create the alcohol, the sugar is consumed, and the yeast falls to the bottom and is separted from the wine.

BrightCandle said:

The bread that was used in the passover was unleavened, because it represented the pure nature of Jesus' character, without sin. Therefore it would make sense that wine was the pure juice of grapes that were not feremented to be consistent in the representation of Jesus' blood which was pure as well.

Click to expand...

Typology is based on similar themes, not circumstances that are exactly the same. Jesus is the Passover Lamb, and yet he was scourged, even though the Torah says that sacrifices could not have any physical blemishes. Just like the wine Jesus drank at the Last Supper need not be "pure grape juice" to symbolize his blood.

And BTW -- Jesus's body was subject to decay like ours are.

BrightCandle said:

In Luke 22:15-19 is desribes the last passover that Jesus celebrated with his disciples, note where Jesus said: "For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes". The bread that was used in the passover was unleavened, because it represented the pure nature of Jesus' character, without sin. Therefore it would make sense that wine was the pure juice of grapes that were not feremented to be consistent in the representation of Jesus' blood which was pure as well.

That is why I said what I said in my earlier post.

Click to expand...

The Hebrew word (pronounced) yah-yin used in the Old Covenant is translated as "wine." This Hebrew word means fermented.

It is the same word used for the substance Noah drank and got drunk with, yah-yin.

God commands the use of fermented wine (yah-yin) in sacred ritual as shown below.


Exd 29:38*- 40*
Now this [is that] which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine (yah-yin) [for] a drink offering.

Here we have some serious symbolism going on: we have a lamb being offered in sacrifice and wine also (yah-yin). Definitely fermented wine, and definitely not simple grape juice.

Why argue with God's Word to support your opinion?

In the NT you have the same problem, there is no time where the word for wine means anything but fermented. The same word is used which is pronounced oy-nos for wine in every single instant and the meaning is fermented.

Why argue with God's Word to support your opinion?

It is the Word of God that protests your opinion. Do you think I practice celibacy because I'm in favor of it? I'd give up a drink to have the other if God gave me a choice. No I'm celibate because, I'm not in marriage, therefor according to God's word I have no choice. I don't like it one bit, especially at certain times, but God's Word is God's Word.

Before you go accusing people of being weak and self-indulgent because they drink moderately you should more deeply ponder what you're saying, in light of God's Word, and who you might be talking to.

bloom said:

The Hebrew word (pronounced) yah-yin used in the Old Covenant is translated as "wine." This Hebrew word means fermented.

It is the same word used for the substance Noah drank and got drunk with, yah-yin.

God commands the use of fermented wine (yah-yin) in sacred ritual as shown below.


Exd 29:38*- 40*
Now this [is that] which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine (yah-yin) [for] a drink offering.

Here we have some serious symbolism going on: we have a lamb being offered in sacrifice and wine also (yah-yin). Definitely fermented wine, and definitely not simple grape juice.

Why argue with God's Word to support your opinion?

In the NT you have the same problem, there is no time where the word for wine means anything but fermented. The same word is used which is pronounced oy-nos for wine in every single instant and the meaning is fermented.

Why argue with God's Word to support your opinion?

It is the Word of God that protests your opinion. Do you think I practice celibacy because I'm in favor of it? I'd give up a drink to have the other if God gave me a choice. No I'm celibate because, I'm not in marriage, therefor according to God's word I have no choice. I don't like it one bit, especially at certain times, but God's Word is God's Word.

Before you go accusing people of being weak and self-indulgent because they drink moderately you should more deeply ponder what you're saying, in light of God's Word, and who you might be talking to.

Click to expand...

Bloom: Check out this analysis of "yayin" the word used for fermented and unfermented wine in the O.T., by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi. You may need to re-think your position regarding wine.

1. Yayin as Fermented Wine

Frequent Use. The noun yayin is the most frequently used word for wine in the Old Testament, fully 141 times. As already noticed, there is an apparent inconsistency in the use of this word, since sometimes it receives God’s approval and sometimes His disapproval. The reason for this will become apparent by looking at some examples where yayin obviously means fermented, intoxicating wine and at others where it means unfermented grape juice.

According to Robert Teachout’s tabulation of the 141 references to yayin in the Old Testament, 71 times the word refers to unfermented grape juice and 70 times to fermented wine.36 This tabulation may not necessarily be accurate, since in certain instances the context is unclear. The actual ratio in the two usages of yayin is of relative significance, because for the purpose of our study it is important simply to establish that yayin is sometimes used in the Old Testament to refer to the unfermented juice of the grape.

Examples of Intoxication. No one doubts that yayin frequently refers in the Old Testament to intoxicating wine. This fact is clearly established both by the many examples of the evil consequences of drinking yayin and by the divine condemnation of its use.

The very first example of the use of yayin in Scripture describes the intoxicating effects of fermented wine: "Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine [yayin] and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent" (Gen 9:20, 21).

Another sordid example in which intoxicating wine played a leading role is that of Lot’s daughters. Fearing to be left without progeny after the destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities, the older daughter said to the younger: "Come, let us make our father drink wine [yayin], and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father.’ So they made their father drink wine [yayin] that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose" (Gen 19:32-33). The story continues relating how the following night the younger daughter repeated the same strategy.

The story of Nabal provides another example of the evil effects of intoxicating wine. Nabal was a wealthy man who had benefited from David’s protection. Yet he refused to give any food in return to David’s men. When David organized his men to kill the ungrateful Nabal, his wife, Abigail, acted hastily on a tip received and brought provisions to David, apologizing for her husband’s foolish behavior. After David accepted her apologies and provisions, she returned home, only to find her husband drunk: "And Abigail came to Nabal; and, lo, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she told him nothing at all until the morning light. And in the morning, when the wine [yayin] had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him and he became as a stone" (1 Sam 25:36-37).

Among the many other stories of intoxicating wine, we could refer to Ammon, who was murdered by the servants of his brother Absalom while he was "merry with wine [yayin]" (2 Sam 13:28). Also King Ahasuerus who, when his heart "was merry with wine [yayin]" (Esther 1:10), tried to subject Vashiti, his queen, to the gaze of the inebriated nobility of the royal court.

The examples cited suffice to show that yayin in the Old Testament often refers to fermented, intoxicating wine. Further indications are provided by the explicit divine disapproval of the use of wine.

Disapproval of Yayin. The classic condemnation of the use of intoxicating wine and a description of its consequences is found in Proverbs 23:29-35. After warning against some woes caused by wine, such as sorrow, strife, complaining, wounds without cause and redness of eyes, Solomon admonishes to refrain even from looking upon wine: "Do not look at wine [yayin] when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder" (Prov 23:31-32).

A similar warning against intoxicating wine is found in Proverbs 20:1: "Wine [yayin] is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise." Such warnings, however, were largely ignored. By the time of Isaiah, drinking fermented wine had become such a universal problem that even "the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink; they are confused with wine [yayin], they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment" (Is 28:7).

Other passages which clearly indicate that yayin refers to fermented, intoxicating wine, will be mentioned in the following chapter, where we shall examine more closely some of the reasons that Scripture admonishes not to use fermented wine.

2. Yayin as Unfermented Grape Juice

No Self-explanatory Passage. The use of yayin in the Old Testament to denote unfermented grape juice is not always as evident as its use to describe alcoholic wine, because the former does not come under condemnation like the latter. There is no single passage which clearly defines yayin as unfermented grape juice. If such a passage existed, there would be no controversy over this subject and no need to write this book.

The Bible, however, is not a lexicon which defines its words. The meaning of its words must often be derived from their context and from their comparative usage in other passages and/or related (cognate) languages. In the case of the word yayin, we believe that there are passages where the context clearly indicates that the word designates unfermented grape juice.

Isaiah 16:10. One of the clearest passages is Isaiah 16:10. The context of the passage is God’s judgment upon Moab for its pride. The judgment is manifested, as often is the case throughout the Old Testament, through the removal of the divine blessing from the vineyard and the grape juice: "And joy and gladness are taken away from the fruitful field; and in the vineyard no songs are sung, no shouts are raised; no treader treads out wine [yayin] in the presses; the vintage shout is hushed" (Is 16:10).

The important point which this passage clarifies is that what the treaders tread out in the pressing vat is called yayin. This is obviously unfermented grape juice, since fermentation is a time-controlled process. Some people wrongly assume that if one just lets grape juice alone, it will automatically ferment into a "good" grade of wine. Such an assumption is wrong. Pressed grape juice (must) allowed to ferment without a controlled environment becomes spoiled grape juice (vinegar) which no one wishes to drink.

Kenneth L. Gentry objects to this interpretation by arguing that "the poetic imagery so common in Hebrew poetry will allow yayin here to be alcoholic."37 His argument is that in poetry sometimes the end results are attributed to the substance which causes the result. Gentry’s objection has two major weaknesses. First, it fails to recognize that the poetic imagery of Isaiah 16:10 deals with the joy of the harvest and the treading of the grapes. The yayin flowing out of the press is seen not in terms of what it could become, fermented wine, but in terms of what it is at harvest time, "wine in the presses."

Second, Gentry ignores the fact that the pressed grape juice, prior to fermentation, was called by the Jews, as shown earlier, "yayin mi-gat—wine from the press." Being unwilling to accept the fact that pressed grape juice could be called yayin, Gentry and a host of moderationists are forced to interpret as alcoholic wine the very yayin flowing from the press. Normal interpretation of Isaiah 16:10 does not require interpreting yayin as a poetic reference to the finished product, fermented wine, since the plain reference to fresh grape juice makes good, understandable sense in the context. A parallel passage is found in Jeremiah 48:33.

Jeremiah 40:10, 12. Another clear example of the use of yayin to designate the unfermented juice of the grape is found in Jeremiah 40:10, 12. In verse 10, Gedaliah, the Babylonian governor, tells the Jews who had not been taken captive: "Gather wine [yayin] and summer fruits and oil, and store them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that you have taken." This order encouraged those Jews who had fled to neighboring countries to return to the land of Judah "and they gathered wine [yayin] and summer fruits in great abundance" (Jer 40:12). In both of these verses we find the term yayin used in a matter-of-fact construction to refer to the fruit of the vine. Alcoholic wine is not gathered from the fields. Such usages negate the assumption that yayin can refer only to fermented wine.

Nehemiah 13:15. In Nehemiah 13:15 we find another example where yayin is used to designate freshly pressed grape juice. "In those days I saw in Judah men treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in heaps of grain and loading them on asses; and also wine [yayin], grapes, figs and all kind of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day; and I warned them on the day when they sold food." Here yayin is most probably the pressed grape juice, since it is mentioned together with the treading of wine presses on the Sabbath. The fresh juice was sold on the Sabbath along with fresh grapes and other fruits.

Lamentations 2:12. In Lamentations there is a vivid description of the physical anguish suffered by Judah during the great famine caused by Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Jerusalem. In famished distress the little children cried out to their mothers: "‘Where is bread and wine[yayin]?’ as they faint like wounded men in the streets of the city, as their life is poured out on their mothers’ bosom" (Lam 2:12).

In this passage the nursing infants are crying out to their mothers for their normal fare of food and drink, namely, bread and yayin. It is hardly imaginable that in time of siege and famine, little children would be asking their mothers for intoxicating wine as their normal drink. "What they wanted as they were dying on their mothers’ breast," notes Robert Teachout, "was grape juice (yayin) which has a tremendous nourishment and which had been part of their normal diet."38

Genesis 49:11. In Genesis 49:11 the blessings of God upon Judah are prophesised through the imagery of an abundant harvest of yayin: "He washes his garments in wine [yayin] and his vesture in the blood of grapes." The idea expressed by this imagery is that the harvest is so copious that the garments of the grape treaders appear washed in the abundance of juice.

In this passage we also have a striking example of Hebrew parallelism where two clauses express the same thought with different words. In this instance, the "garments" of the first clause correspond to the "vesture" of the second clause, and the "wine" (yayin) to the "blood of the grapes." "Blood" is a poetical name for "grape juice," and its usage in parallelism with "wine" suggests that in Bible times grape juice was called yayin, prior to its fermentation.

Song of Solomon. Other examples of the use of yayin referring to unfermented grape juice are found in the love poem written by Solomon, King of Israel. In several verses the enjoyment of pure love is compared with yayin: "O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine [yayin], . . . We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine [yayin]; . . . How sweet is your love, my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine [yayin]" (Song of Solomon 1:2, 4; 4:10).

In these verses yayin can hardly refer to fermented, intoxicating wine, since the author of this book condemns fermented wine as a "mocker" and a stinging "adder" (Prov 20:1, 23:32). It is evident that Solomon is comparing the sweetness of pure, undefiled love with sweet grape juice. Such a comparison is most appropriate, because, as Teachout observes, "just as grape juice was given explicitly by God for the purpose of rejoicing the heart of man (Psalm 104:15), so too is the love between a man and a woman."39

The foregoing examples clearly indicate that, contrary to prevailing opinion, yayin was used in the Old Testament, as in rabbinical literature, to designate either fermented or unfermented grape juice.

Jesus said He came eating and drinking. What is everyone arguing about?

God Bless

Bright Candle

I couldn't read the whole of your document, it's too late in the day. I am familiar with Dr. Bacchiocchi however, and at this time will not go in depth regarding my opinion of his speculations, except to say, I believe he uses his expertise to furthure his opinon as do those who wrote the "CLEAR WORD" the SDA VERSION OF THE BIBLE, and also those who wrote the JW's VERSION OF THE BIBLE. Both which, in my opinion are nothing less then attempts to further the cause of their already biased opinion.

Sorry to respond so negatively, because the sense I get from you is sincerity. In the end I think that is the most important issue... are we true to what we truly believe, or are we sold out to a belief becuase it's convienent.

I don't want to discourage your fervor, and thank you for your thoughtful response, this may sound strange but I've grown fond of hearing your replies, there is something innocent and pure I think coming from you.

Keep me in your prayers, I hope to see you there in heaven at the wedding feast, fermented or not!

God Bless!!!

Asinner said:

Jesus said He came eating and drinking. What is everyone arguing about?

God Bless

Click to expand...

Religion!

The tragedy is that on both sides of this issue are good hearted, well meaning people.

Bright Candle

BTW there is nothing greater than innocense and purity. These are things I long for and am in continual prayer that I might have renewed innocence and the purity of SALVATION that I might walk in the fevor of my first love!

God Bless!!!

So was this grapejuice wine always freshly squeezed, or what kind of refrigerator did they use to keep it, just juice? I bet it was a maytag. Or only juice drinkers could live by a very cold stream, like the ones so prevalent in Palastine and the surrounding areas. Maybe it was only a winter treat, like when it dips down to a frigid 50 degrees.

Theophorus said:

So was this grapejuice wine always freshly squeezed, or what kind of refrigerator did they use to keep it, just juice? I bet it was a maytag. Or only juice drinkers could live by a very cold stream, like the ones so prevalent in Palastine and the surrounding areas. Maybe it was only a winter treat, like when it dips down to a frigid 50 degrees.

Click to expand...

The tradition of Jews is that, if grape juice was under three days old then it was unfermented.

BrightCandle said:

The tradition of Jews is that, if grape juice was under three days old then it was unfermented.

Click to expand...

Freshly squeezed then. I guess that would mean only drinking and weddings and stuff at harvest time. Passover would present a problem though. And the last supper...

bloom said:

Bright Candle

I couldn't read the whole of your document, it's too late in the day. I am familiar with Dr. Bacchiocchi however, and at this time will not go in depth regarding my opinion of his speculations, except to say, I believe he uses his expertise to furthure his opinon as do those who wrote the "CLEAR WORD" the SDA VERSION OF THE BIBLE, and also those who wrote the JW's VERSION OF THE BIBLE. Both which, in my opinion are nothing less then attempts to further the cause of their already biased opinion.

Sorry to respond so negatively, because the sense I get from you is sincerity. In the end I think that is the most important issue... are we true to what we truly believe, or are we sold out to a belief becuase it's convienent.

I don't want to discourage your fervor, and thank you for your thoughtful response, this may sound strange but I've grown fond of hearing your replies, there is something innocent and pure I think coming from you.

Keep me in your prayers, I hope to see you there in heaven at the wedding feast, fermented or not!

God Bless!!!

Click to expand...

Thank you, Bloom, for your kind words. I can tell that you seeking God's will for your life, and as Jesus said: "Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you".

BTW, the Clear Word is not the authorized translation of the SDA church. We don't have one. The SDA just recommends that its members study a boni fide translation in whatever language they happen to speak. The Clear Word is a paraphrase very much like "The Message" by Eugene Peterson. I have one edition of the Clear Word in my library, but I rarely read it. And I don't use for doctrine. The three Bibles that I use for study, are the three most literal English translations, the NASB, the ESV, and KJV.

Theophorus said:

Freshly squeezed then. I guess that would mean only drinking and weddings and stuff at harvest time. Passover would present a problem though. And the last supper...

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not an expert in that area. I'll have to do some more research into Jewish custom and traditon.

I want to apologize for my zeal in this debate, in review I've been self righteous about my opinion. I'm not changing my opinion, but I see the need for growth in learning to express my views with love. I've judged those opposing my opinion as trying to twist God's word to meet their own opinion.

Obviously this is not necessarily the case for any of us. If we are mistaken it can be honestly mistaken, or misinformed. I'm going to prayerfully attempt to move forward in these discussions in that light rather than make negative accusations regarding motive.

That is the same thing I object to regarding some things said about my opinion. I've become guilty of being self-righteous about my own opinion and judging others as having false motives for their opinions. WHEW!!!! what a dope!!!!

Judge not so you'll be not judged, right? And if we judge others we find ourselves guilty of the same thing, right? Well, I just made myself a perfect example of the truth of God's Word.

I get ticked because people don't understand what seems clear to me regarding the word, and they accuse me of being a nominal self indulgent "Christian" (as if I don't love the Lord and seek to serve Him with my life) all because I have a glass of wine. So what do I do? I turn right around and tell them "you're a self righteous hypocrite like the pharisees!"

The truth is those of us who drink need to take care not to become self-indulgent and nominal in our walks, which alcohol can do to us.

The truth is also those who abstain and have strict rules for themselves regarding eating and drinking need to be careful not to become self-righteous and pharisaical which also compromises their witness as much as alcohol might.

The man who does not offend with words the same is a perfect man. Since that's not me, please forgive me whoever I may have offended with my words.

bloom said:

I want to apologize for my zeal in this debate ...snip...The man who does not offend with words the same is a perfect man. Since that's not me, please forgive me whoever I may have offended with my words.

Click to expand...

friend bloom,

perfection escapes all of us. all of us are guilty of this. if not here in this discussion, then in other discussions. if our beliefs were not passionately held and defended, we would be easily swayed by untruth.

god bless,
lh

Isaiah 16:10. One of the clearest passages is Isaiah 16:10. The context of the passage is God’s judgment upon Moab for its pride. The judgment is manifested, as often is the case throughout the Old Testament, through the removal of the divine blessing from the vineyard and the grape juice: "And joy and gladness are taken away from the fruitful field; and in the vineyard no songs are sung, no shouts are raised; no treader treads out wine [yayin] in the presses; the vintage shout is hushed" (Is 16:10).

The important point which this passage clarifies is that what the treaders tread out in the pressing vat is called yayin. This is obviously unfermented grape juice, since fermentation is a time-controlled process. Some people wrongly assume that if one just lets grape juice alone, it will automatically ferment into a "good" grade of wine. Such an assumption is wrong. Pressed grape juice (must) allowed to ferment without a controlled environment becomes spoiled grape juice (vinegar) which no one wishes to drink.

Click to expand...

The above analogy doesn't make sense to me at all because a wine press is used to press wine, right? And, yes, it takes time to create the wine but obviously that's what is being referred to. Otherwise wouldn't God use the Hebrew word to denote unfermented juice?

There are other words in Hebrew that mean unfermented juice, if that's what the author meant he would have used the word descriptive of His intent, right?

It doesn't make sense to me at all that God wouldn't use the word descriptive of His intention and meaning. Why would God say wine (fermented) when it's not what He meant? I'd rather just think God says what He means and means what He says.

That's why I believe you can't take an isolated text and create a doctrine out of it. You have to look at the whole book and determine the end from the beginning and everything in between.