where exactly did preterist beliefs orginate

Originally posted by jenlu
Hey Auntie...

Mr. West seems to think that Matthew 24:1-34 is past...are you changing your toon on this...or do you just agree with his consistent preterist view and ignore what he said about the rest...

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Hey jenlu -I wouldn't worry too much about any tunes being changed, running true to form it's just another in-depth response [which usually means: another cut n' paste] -probably read half and understood less

Originally posted by Acts6:5
The study ends with this:

"In summary, though it is often not taught from the pulpits, Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24 and the parallel passages of the Olivet Discourse are very adequately explained in preterist fashion as God's holy judgment against unbelieving Israel in A.D. 70."

Although the site does not support certain teachings in full-preterism, it does support partial-preterism (and it trounces dispensationalism).

This last quote from the site is especially telling:

"You don't often find scholarly books on eschatology in Christian book stores anymore. The booksellers are pushing "the world's going to end any moment" literature and have convinced bookstores into thinking that anything else is a departure from orthodox Christianity. These "chicken little" books are the prophetic equivalent of Christian romance novels: sensational, suspenseful, and highly questionable in terms of edification. Given the silliness of pop eschatology, I can hardly blame nonchristians for ridiculing those who profess Christ."

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Now aint that the truth! oopppss, another cut n' paste

davo

Originally posted by jenlu
I'm not a preterist...but prodigal...

Aren't you(man) reading into Jesus' words and twisting scripture to get a desired result...there is no evidence that he was "encouraging" them by saying the Day of the Lord was coming soon...within their generation...

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No evidence. You futurist seem to have your own man made Bible that does not contain Jesus' words. What other evidence did the disciples need other then Jesus' promise to return before they had gone through the cities of Israel (Matthew 10:23). Jesus liked to keep things simile. One of the more astounding facets of preterism is the necessity to tell Christians thatthe Bible means what it says.

It is a good thing that the saints unlike christians today believed the words of Jesus, because they to would have been destroyed in the Day of the Lord.

Originally posted by prodigal
Again, in 70 AD, Christ, according to heretical preterist views, came back and did what?

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We preterist must be on the right track. Why? Because when we tell the truth, our futurists brother go on the attack. This was true in Jesus'day and it is still true today. It feels good to be in the company of Jesus.

I am consistently so amazed at people of the likes of prodigal and auntie, who completely miss the point of Christianity. To them, it is a fideism that means only the belief system they've been taught. They have no real regard for the Truth, and do not love it, for if they loved it, they would know it's bigger than whatever cookie-cutter doctrine Fundamentalism has handed them.

The point of Christianity is a lifestyle of serving God and one another. It is being Jesus to everyone you come in contact with, especially other believers. It's not having all the right doctrines about eschatology or bibliology. I've disagreed doctrinally with some of the most godly men I've ever known, who conveyed this with their lives. R.C. Sproul is one man who is conservative on many issues, and is well-regarded among many Fundies, but he's a preterist. No, you don't have to agree with everything they say to act respectfully towards them.

Christianity teaches holiness of lifestyle, not perfection of doctrine. Futurists AND preterists believe that, and all accusation of heresy and apostasy are nothing more than a ploy of Satan to divide his believers. Let's learn together. There is absolutely not one biblical reason to launch those kinds of accusations at one another.

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I am consistently so amazed at people of the likes of prodigal and auntie, who completely miss the point of Christianity. To them, it is a fideism that means only the belief system they've been taught. They have no real regard for the Truth, and do not love it, for if they loved it, they would know it's bigger than whatever cookie-cutter doctrine Fundamentalism has handed them.

The point of Christianity is a lifestyle of serving God and one another. It is being Jesus to everyone you come in contact with, especially other believers. It's not having all the right doctrines about eschatology or bibliology. I've disagreed doctrinally with some of the most godly men I've ever known, who conveyed this with their lives. R.C. Sproul is one man who is conservative on many issues, and is well-regarded among many Fundies, but he's a preterist. No, you don't have to agree with everything they say to act respectfully towards them.

Christianity teaches holiness of lifestyle, not perfection of doctrine. Futurists AND preterists believe that, and all accusation of heresy and apostasy are nothing more than a ploy of Satan to divide his believers. Let's learn together. There is absolutely not one biblical reason to launch those kinds of accusations at one another.

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Aman. Well said brother

Manifestation...

I think you got my point messed up...while I am somewhat a futurist in your eyes...I can completely see how Matthew 24 is past events...

This also goes to a point that not only the dispensational futurist don't really read (on this forum) what is being said...my point actually goes in favor of the preterist argument in this thread...it's mostly people of different leanings just spouting off without anyone actually stopping to take a look at what is being said...

prodigal was trying to twist (IMHO) the scripture to say when Jesus told the disciple's he was coming soon...that it was only for encouragement...He didn't actually mean it...read prodigal's last post...it might help in your understanding of my post...

to many people on the attack...try not to take differences in opinion as personal attacks...we don't even know you...(should go for everyone)...

Originally posted by jenlu
...while I am somewhat a futurist in your eyes...I can completely see how Matthew 24 is past events...

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If this be so [and I have no reason to doubt you] where do you fit a future Parousia in Matt24 -do you split verses 35 from 36 and insert a typical dispensational "gap" -prior being Jerusalems end, and post being the worlds end? Trouble is [if that's how you see it] that kinda makes for a dispensational 3rd Coming -He comes and judges Jerusalem, then later comes again and judges the world.

It is untenable [and wrong] to insert a false gap in here. If you read Luke's account of the very same end-time event there are factors occuring in Luke as a whole [one event] that magically get divided into two by this gap theory of Matt24 -any thoughts?

davo

Originally posted by prodigal


Ask yourself why Jesus would tell them that the world hated them and was going to kill them and then say, "I'll be right back!" It is called encouragement. The world may destroy our flesh, but praise God, Jesus has overcome the world. Even Jesus did not know when he would return, but by saying soon he covered the bases.

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OK, So, what you are saying is that it's OK for Jesus to LIE as long as He does it to "provide encouragement" and "cover His bases"?

I must admit that I do agree with part of your interpratation, in that when Jesus used the the term "Soon" he meant it to be understood in the plain, literal, human sense of the term. Most futurists try to spiritualize away that meaning. You should be proud of yourself for holding firm to a "literal" interpratation about this.

Now, If we could just get you to re examine your assertion that Jesus Lied..............

davo

As of right now, the preterist view is bringing up some questions in my mind, but have yet to be convinced in scripture...So as of right now, I don't believe any of those verse's are talking about the 2nd Coming/Parousia...no gap...just not the 2nd Coming...

Originally posted by jenlu
As of right now, the preterist view is bringing up some questions in my mind, but have yet to be convinced in scripture...So as of right now, I don't believe any of those verse's are talking about the 2nd Coming/Parousia...no gap...just not the 2nd Coming...

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Jenlu, if I'm reading you correctly, your: "I don't believe any of those verse's are talking about the 2nd Coming/Parousia" are you talking about Matt 24 that I refered to -like for example:

Matt 24:30-31 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Or, are you saying "that" in reference to Luke's account of the same event [in which case you'd maybe be saying they are not the same events??]. If that's what you're thinking -what from the text tells you they are NOT the same event?

If neither in your opinion have to do with Christ's Parousia -but just the destruction of Jerusalem -what scriptures then tell you of a future physical coming of Christ? [I can appreciate you may say something like Act 1:11 etc -what I'm asking is how do you handle the above scriptures specifically].

Hope all that made sense

davo

Well davo...

First I see verse 30 as saying the Son of Man in heaven taking His seat at the right hand of the Father...because of the events of 70 AD with the destruction of the old covenant and the beginning of the already victorious covenant...then I see verse 31 as Jesus sending His messengers (angels) to preach to the nations...and progressively over time as we die of flesh we are gathered unto him...what do you think of these verses...

Originally posted by jenlu
First I see verse 30 as saying the Son of Man in heaven taking His seat at the right hand of the Father...because of the events of 70 AD with the destruction of the old covenant and the beginning of the already victorious covenant...then I see verse 31 as Jesus sending His messengers (angels) to preach to the nations...and progressively over time as we die of flesh we are gathered unto him...what do you think of these verses...

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Matt 24:29-31: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Looking at verse 29 I'd say "Immediately" means what it says, and isn't to be stretched out like the dispensational "soon" etc -i.e., it's pretty much straight away. The "tribulation" being the conflagation that engulfed Jerusalem -in particular the Temple, being the massive civil unrest as a result of the religious and zealotry factions warring against each other [many were killed at this time -at their own hands]. The "sun moon and stars" coming to nought being the Hebrew hierarchy crumbling under divine judgment -typifying the final hours of the Old Covenant -about to end, as per Heb 8:13 [1Cor 7:29; 1Jn 2:17] etc.

Verse 30 is the promised coming in their generation as Jesus and the apostles taught. "Earth" is equally translated "Land" -so is seen in the immediate context of Israel, and so matches with the 12 "tribes" etc. The coming is in line with over biblical references to Yahweh's divine judgments -"on the clouds of glory." The fact that this judgment was occuring was the "sign" that Jesus had indeed taken His place on the throne -as Judgment was given to Him. The "many" that saw Him coming again were Jesus' contemporaries -Mt 26:64, Mt 10:23; 16:28, and naturally others of the time etc.

Verse 31 recapitulates what's gone before in the chapter about "going into all the world [the known world of their day -the Roman empire] in the sense of the angels [messengers with the Gospel] reaping that harvest that was "ready and white." Seeing this in terms being fulfilled in the 1st century doesn't in any way diminish from our sharing the good news of salvation in Christ -the only difference being that what they were coming into i.e., "fulness" we now have -what a blessing! The gospel is eternal Rev 14:6.

You mentioned not seeing the Parousia in Matt 24 -where do you see it?

davo

Davo...here goes...

as for 29...Immediately after the destruction of the temple(Jerusalem, ie tribulation) the lights went out for the Jews being God's special people(ie moon, sun and stars language is plain to me as the coming down of the kingdom given to the Jews)...

as for 30...it happened immediately too...(we both know that it definitely happened in the ascension into heaven), but the final act of destroying the temple which was part of Jesus' first coming (in my humble opinion)...was the sign that Jesus was on the throne...so that is where Jesus refers (in my opinion that is why He uses the phraseology "Son of Man") to Daniel 7:13-14 where it describe's Jesus in a similar way as coming "with the clouds of heaven"...and as you can see Jesus was heading in the wrong direction for it to be a parousia...or coming to earth...In Daniel he was approaching "the Ancient of Days"...I believe Jesus was describing that in verse 30...
that is why all the tribes of the earth mourned...although all the tribes of the "land" should be how it is read and we know that means Israel...of course they were mourning...they had lost the covenential status under the Law and the Temple...So Israel is seen as mourning immediately after the tribulation of those days...

verse 31...also immediately after the tribulation of those days...began the time when Jesus would send forth His messengers (angels is commonly used for messengers) to sound the trumpet(call of the Gospel, with reference to Numbers 10:1-10 and the year of the Jubilee) for the great gathering of His people from the whole world...I believe this to be reference to the entire world due to the fact he described it differently then saying the earth...this to me has to be referring to the whole world...It began immediately after the tribulation of those days and continue's until today...

Jenlu, I'm inclined to think that Dan 7:13-14 deals with Christ's ascension and the time following as his receiving of the Eternal Kingdom from His Father.

Daniel 7:13-14 I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. 14Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.

His "coming to" isn't an action that gets suspended indefinitely in limbo -having received, He comes/returns, giving His saints the promised Kingdom [verses 18, 22 & 27]. And this is all in the time frame of that fourth kingdom -Rome.

This thought of Going [coming to] Receiving and Returning is reflected in Jesus' parable:

Luke 19:12 Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman [Christ] went into a far country [Heaven -to the Ancient of Days] to receive for himself a kingdom [authority] and to return [Parousia].

davo

Davo...

Don't you and I both put the events leading up to and including 70AD as part of the taking away of the kingdom from the Jew alone and giving it to a nation that produces fruit...but also you and I discern that in actuality this taking away, along with the defeat of his enemies including death, was definitely complete in the life, death, ressurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ...So we don't have a problem moving the time frame that cerainly did happen on the cross, at the tomb, and on the mount, to 40 years later...So allowing us to see that the destruction of the Temple was the "sign" of the Son of Man coming on the cloud of heaven... sitting at the Right Hand of God to recieve His Kingdom is applicable in my opinion for verse 30...

Though I do believe He came...just not in terms of the Second Coming...He came in judgement of the Jews and salvation of the true church...but, as of right now I do beleive there will be, if I can quote Chilton, "Paradise Restored"...that is as the growth of the Gospel throughout the age progresses, while he definitely conquered on the cross, in the tomb, and on the mount, He will conquer more and more and all His enemies will be His footstool...the last one being death...and by that I mean physical death...Like Adam was created not to die...I believe that will happen again on earth and Edenic Blessings will be restored to what they were before the fall...

Originally posted by jenlu
Don't you and I both put the events leading up to and including 70AD as part of the taking away of the kingdom from the Jew alone and giving it to a nation that produces fruit...but also you and I discern that in actuality this taking away, along with the defeat of his enemies including death, was definitely complete in the life, death, ressurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ...So we don't have a problem moving the time frame that cerainly did happen on the cross, at the tomb, and on the mount, to 40 years later...So allowing us to see that the destruction of the Temple was the "sign" of the Son of Man coming on the cloud of heaven... sitting at the Right Hand of God to recieve His Kingdom is applicable in my opinion for verse 30...

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Salvation came through the Cross, not at the Cross. The out-working of salvation/righteousness was the "hope" of the Church -which they didn't yet have [Gal 5:5] -it came to fruition when Christ came. So I'm wondering how you can see a coming, but not see it as it is THE Coming.

Jenlu, you'll have to excuse me -I feel like I'm not quite answering your question -I'm on a night shift here and my brain isn't cranking up too well .

I can understand where you're at -as you described your position early [I was there at one point].

PS: did you know that David Chilton embrassed "Full Preterism" some time before his death -he wrote "Paradise Restored" and "Days of Vengeance" as a partial preterist [futurist], and was rather scathing of the "full" postion to which he later subscribed.

davo

If you've been where I am, then you know how I see a Coming without it being The COMING...We both know God/Yahweh came many times in judgement/salvation in the O.T. in much the same way...

This is the first good discussion I've had with a full preterist that did not just blow me off...I just can't see how (like I did with the dispensational stuff...I mean it was like a light went off and I've thought this way forever...you know), at least right now, how your interpretation of those verses is correct...I'm not saying it isn't, but it isn't blasting me in the face like I said in parenthesis...It could be my lack of knowledge or it could be that I'm right...
I appreciate you conversing with me...I've got to head out for now too...hopefully will be able to continue this later today...

BTW...do you have any writing/tapes/any quotes of Chilton after his change in belief...I would like to see how he justified it...his books communicated well with me and it may help in my understanding of preterism...also, without these (not that I don't believe that you believe it) I would have no evidence of it actually happening...i know the "battle" between partials and fulls has been steamy and this would be a big hit to partials in my opinion...

Thanks again...

Originally posted by jenlu
If you've been where I am, then you know how I see a Coming without it being The COMING...We both know God/Yahweh came many times in judgement/salvation in the O.T. in much the same way...

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I'm just about to go home. I may have been a bit presumptuous saying "I can understand where you're at," because I came through amill>postmill>partial pret>full pret -mind you it wasn't blinding light stuff for me, more a case of finding the evidence becoming overwhelming where I felt I needed to "get serious" [not saying you're not]. So it was more a journey -my final decision though was still a leap, as I didn't have all the "T's" crossed etc, but I didn't have that before anyway. I just found there was more "for" than "against" -and lots of "little" mystifying scriptures started to make contextual sense -"started falling into place."

I'll catch you later -in the mean time someone else may also read our posts and make some contribution and sense

Blessings!

davo

tell me about those "little" mystifying scripture's...I believe I know what you are talking about here...thanks...

I know your heading home...my journey was disp/postmill(kinda partial...but like my story said I had become very disturbed with the time statements in the Bible for the last two years of my dispensational leanings...and when I found postmillenailism is was like a blast of light, but it did take much deliberation...talk to you later...

G'day jenlu -just passing, here's some links that might be of interest.

Foreword to ‘What Happened in AD70?’ By David Chilton:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/chilton-david_p_01.html

Email correspondence by David Chilton:
http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id88.htm

Mt 24 - Lk 17 comparative chart:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/images/Charts/im-luk17.gif

40 years in Typology:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/images/Charts/im-40yrs.gif

9 Preterist Audio Sermons by David Curtis:
http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/audioyears/library.htm

davo