What you will do and feel if there's no rapture ?

How will you react if there's no pre-trib rapture ? (Be realist)

  • I will keep faith and trust in God

  • I will keep fait but will be very scare

  • I will lose (a part of all) my faith

  • God deceived us, pre-tib rapture was wrote in the Bible !


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Nigmeister

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TasManOfGod said:
Christians are in this world to carry on the victory of the Cross and to share that victory with Jesus Christ. Resurrection has always been considered eminent. If this was not so Jesus would have taught otherwise. It is not escapism and certainly will not be for those whom Jesus chooses to return with Him in the midst of great calamity stirred up by Satan himself. I would remind you that you are in the training ground for that now so even those who are waiting for the "rapture" should be well prepared for what is to come.

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Tas
While i agree with a lot of what you say, the rapturing teaching is certainly escapism.
You say that "in the midst of great calamity stirred up by Satan himself", jesus effectively 'pulls out'.
For starters, "satan himself" implies that satan is remotely competition for God, although i'm sure that you don't mean that.
Next, pulling out as a result of some calamity satan causes can only be described as escapism.
What's more, satan cannot cause a single act of destruction without the will of our father - read the book of Job for an obvious example. Satan's power is limited by god's control. So why would jesus run from a act that he willfully allowed to happen?
Finally, the whole rapture theory is based on a separate christianity waiting out the downward spiral of man. This is contrary to everything that the bible teaches.
 
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Sirunai

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I feel that we shouldn't even be debating this topic. The bible says that only God knows the time and place and that it is not our job to to discuss the things that only God can understand. The bible tells us not to worry about tommorrow so as Matthew 34 would say

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Your perceptions will not change reality, simply colour it.
 
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TasManOfGod

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Sirunai said:
I feel that we shouldn't even be debating this topic. The bible says that only God knows the time and place and that it is not our job to to discuss the things that only God can understand. The bible tells us not to worry about tommorrow so as Matthew 34 would say

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Your perceptions will not change reality, simply colour it.
I would say you were right on track except Jesus did not say what you are saying in response those trying to understand endtime events. So important is it to our Lord that He returned specifically to give us the whole of Revelation. This was in addition to what had already been given to Daniel and other OT prophets. Don't you think God is actually trying to tell us something so maybe we ought to listen and "rightly divide it".
 
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postrib

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Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #120 in this thread:
". . . If there's no rapture . . . "
There will definitely be a rapture, for the English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin word "rapiemur," which is the Latin Vulgate translation of the original Greek word "harpazo," translated as "caught up" (KJV) in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The saints will definitely be "caught up" or "raptured" when Jesus returns. But some have mistakenly come to believe that this will happen before the tribulation, instead of after the tribulation, at the second "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; Matthew 24:29-31).

From post #120 in this thread:
". . . the All powerful God i believe in is not an escapist . . . "
While the Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation, but says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers from all around the earth (Mark 13:27; compare 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the clouds to meet Christ at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), we are still commanded to pray always that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
 
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postrib

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Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #121 in this thread:

". . . I couldn't find anything about 'antichrist' in any of the passages above that you attribute to 'antichrist' . . . "
The Apostle John did not deny that a singular Antichrist will come (1 John 2:18), even though he emphasized that the spirit of antichrist is already working in the world (compare 2 Thessalonians 2:7) and that anyone who denies the Father and Christ or who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist (1 John 2:22; 4:3; 2 John 7), so that there are also many antichrists (1 John 2:18).

The Apostle John subsequently shows the singular Antichrist who will rule the world in Revelation 13:5-18, where he calls him "the first beast." The Apostle Paul had previously shown this singular Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, where calls him "that man of sin," "the son of perdition," and "that Wicked." The prophet Daniel had previously shown this singular Antichrist in Daniel 7:8-25; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; and 11:21-45, where he calls him "a little horn," "the beast," "a king of fierce countenance," "the prince that shall come," "a vile person," and "the king of the north." Therefore, simply because the Antichrist is called by many different names throughout the scriptures other than "the Antichrist" doesn't mean that he will not come, just as the fact that Jesus is called by many different names throughout the scriptures other than "Jesus" (e.g. Isaiah 9:6; Revelation 19:7; 19:13) doesn't mean that Jesus will not come again (Acts 1:11).

The singular Antichrist who will come will be a man who reign for three and a half years and blaspheme God and physically overcome the church (Daniel 7:20-21; 7:24-25; 8:24; 11:32-36; Revelation 13:5-7); he will then be cast into the lake of fire at the second coming (Daniel 7:11; 8:25; 11:45; Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

From post #122 in this thread:

". . . Resurrection has always been considered eminent. If this was not so Jesus would have taught otherwise . . . "
Do you mean "imminent"? If so, Jesus never taught imminence. Instead He taught that the apostles would preach the gospel throughout the known world (Acts 1:8); He told Paul that he must preach also in Rome (Acts 23:11); He foretold that all nations on the earth would hear the gospel (Matthew 24:14). Jesus would not have prophesied any of these things if imminence were true.

None of the scriptures related to Christ's future coming teach or require an imminent coming of Christ; they refer only to the second coming and to our continual looking forward to that event. In fact, the Bible expressly teaches the opposite of imminence, for 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 says that Christ can't come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which can't occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem; Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13 shows the church in the tribulation; and Matthew 24:29-31 says that Jesus will come to gather together the church after the tribulation.

From post #124 in this thread:

". . . The bible says that only God knows the time . . . "
Are you referring to Matthew 24:36-37? If so, there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.

Jesus didn't say that no man will know the day, only that no man knows the day, which is still true. Compare the Apostle Paul's use in 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 of the same "the things of God knoweth no man" idea that Jesus expresses in Matthew 24:36. There Paul explains that by the Holy Spirit it is now possible for believers to know the things of God, just as other scriptures leave open the possibility that in the future the Holy Spirit will reveal the day to believers (John 16:13; Amos 3:7).

From post #124 in this thread:

". . . The bible tells us not to worry about tommorrow . . . "
We certainly shouldn't be anxious about the future, but the scriptures do include a great deal of eschatology, and we are to take heed to it so that we might know beforehand everything that we will have to face (Mark 13:23; Revelation 1:1). The Apostle Paul was very concerned when a church was receiving false eschatological teachings as it was causing many in that church to be shaken in mind and troubled (2 Thessalonians 2:2).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
 
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*Song Bird*

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I've studied quite a bit of the Bible re-garding end times, and I am conviced of a Post-Trib. Rapture :) I could write alot about it, but for now, I just wanna adress the Restrainer issue. The Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, or the Church.

1Thessalonians. 1:2-6. “Let no one deceive you, for that day (the day of the Lord, tribulation, Jacobs Trouble etc…) shall not come unless the falling away come first, & the man of sin, (antichrist) be revealed […] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time[….] only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the Lawless one (antichrist) will be revealed…”

Now, this means, there cannot be an imminent return of Christ that the Pre-Tribs teach, because something has to happen before the day of the Lord! But, who is the restrainer? This passage has been an important passage for Pre-Tribs, because it’s the only one that’s really held weight in their argument for a Pre-Trib Rapture. This is because this verse tells us their’s something, or body that’s holding back the Anti-Christ. They believe that this has to be the Church, or the Holy Spirit, or Man’s Laws. That’s the basis for us not being here. But, I don't believe this is implying the Holy Spirit or the Church or any sign of a rapture. First of all the Holy Spirit cannot go, because it is the Holy Spirit who call men to Salvation, and obviously there will be Christians during the Tribulation because we are told repeatedly throughout Revelation and Daniel, “ Here, is the Patience of the Saints…Blessed are the overcomers…he shall make war against the Saints…etc…” I also do not feel it is the Church, because there will still be believers here on Earth. The only logical explanation of who the restrainer is, is found in Daniel 12. The“restrainer” that must be taken out of the way for the Antichrist to come, is Michael, the Arc-angel & protector of God’s people. Look in Daniel 12: 1, It states,

“And at that time Michael shall stand up. The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered everyone who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . Some to life & some to shame[…] go shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end.” Now, why was it even mentioned that Michael stood up before the Time of Trouble? From then on it says nothing about him. The Hebrew word for “stand up”(amad) means to “stand still, or stand aside” Strong’s Concordance,also says “cease” So, if he stands still, he’s not restraining the powers of darkness anymore, and the Antichrist is free to come!

I see that Postrib has already covered lots of ground on the issue of the Postribulation rapture, but If any of you have other questions about biblical support for post-tribulationalism, feel free to ask me, and I shall try to answer it. :)
 
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FreeinChrist

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*Song Bird* said:
I've studied quite a bit of the Bible re-garding end times, and I am conviced of a Post-Trib. Rapture :) I could write alot about it, but for now, I just wanna adress the Restrainer issue. The Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, or the Church.

1Thessalonians. 1:2-6. “Let no one deceive you, for that day (the day of the Lord, tribulation, Jacobs Trouble etc…) shall not come unless the falling away come first, & the man of sin, (antichrist) be revealed […] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time[….] only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the Lawless one (antichrist) will be revealed…”

Now, this means, there cannot be an imminent return of Christ that the Pre-Tribs teach, because something has to happen before the day of the Lord! But, who is the restrainer? This passage has been an important passage for Pre-Tribs, because it’s the only one that’s really held weight in their argument for a Pre-Trib Rapture. This is because this verse tells us their’s something, or body that’s holding back the Anti-Christ. They believe that this has to be the Church, or the Holy Spirit, or Man’s Laws.
No - we don't believe Mans Laws restrains the Antichrist.


That’s the basis for us not being here. But, I don't believe this is implying the Holy Spirit or the Church or any sign of a rapture. First of all the Holy Spirit cannot go, because it is the Holy Spirit who call men to Salvation, and obviously there will be Christians during the Tribulation
We don't believe the Holy Spirit is gone. We beleive His role returns to the prePentecost role. The Spirit was always everywhere:
Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. So the Spirit will always be here. And in the Tribulation, mankind will have to make a choice - take the mark or not. If they take the mark - and then regret, there is still no hope for them. :(

And I don't believe that Michael is the Restrainer.

The Hebrew word for “stand up”(amad) means to “stand still, or stand aside” Strong’s Concordance,also says “cease” So, if he stands still, he’s not restraining the powers of darkness anymore, and the Antichrist is free to come!
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05975&version=kjv
Here is an explanation of 'amad'. From the context of the passage, I beleive Michael stands up - as it is translated. I see this as midtrib, and then comes the Great Tribulation.

And Michael is an angel - works under God. He is not omniscient, omnipresent.
What II Thes. 2:6-7 is referring is that the Holy Spirit - the Restrainer - will stop restraining. Not leave.
 
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*Song Bird*

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No - we don't believe Mans Laws restrains the Antichrist.

Who is 'we' pretibbers? Because, I am speaking from my experience and I have talked to some who do bleleive that.

We don't believe the Holy Spirit is gone. We beleive His role returns to the prePentecost role.

Ok...The Holy Spirit wasn't retraining any evil until the day of Pentecost?Sorry ,too-many verses go against that...also you propose a probelm...that mean man cannot call upon Christ and be saved during the Tribulation. Pre-Pentecost world did not have the opportunity...if we return that way...how will their be saints in the Tribulation?

And Michael is an angel - works under God. He is not omniscient, omnipresent
. Who said he has to be omnipresent? Satan is not, demons are not...we are told that angles fight the power of Satan and his demons . Michael is in charge of keeping Israel safe. So, God would have to releave him of his duties, for a ruler(possesed by Satan) to be able to come after his chosen people. So, why is Daniel standing up, or stepping aside?
If he's not the restrainer, ...what else is so important that he's doing that it has to be mentioned before talking about the tribulation?
 
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*Song Bird*

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Just thought of another problem w/ the Pre-Pentecost theory...
Joel Chapter 2. Read it. It's speaking about the last days...more specifically the Tribulation. This is obvious by the signs in the Sun moon and Stars etc... vs 28 " And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon ALL flesh; and your sons shall prophesy, you old men shall dream dreams, your younge men shall see visions;...I will pour out my Spirit. And I will show wonder in the heavens and in the Earth ; Blood, and Fire, and Pillars of Smoke. THe sun shall be turned into blood, before the Great and terrible Day of the Lord come. and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delievered; For in Mt Zion and in jerusalem, is delieverence, as the Lord hath said, and in the REMNANT who the Lord shall call." The Cosmic disturbances are seen in almost all end times passages such as...Isaiah 13;Joel 2; Zechariah14; Matthew24; Luke21, Mark13, Rev 6:12-15; Rev 11:15-19; Rev 16:17-21 And these signs happen at the End of the Trib.
So, the Holy Spirit is Not in a Pre-Pentecost state, because we see in these latter times of trouble that he's pouring out his Spirit like he did do on the Day of Pentecost. :clap:
 
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FreeinChrist

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*Song Bird* said:
Just thought of another problem w/ the Pre-Pentecost theory...
Joel Chapter 2. Read it. It's speaking about the last days...more specifically the Tribulation. This is obvious by the signs in the Sun moon and Stars etc... vs 28 " And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon ALL flesh; and your sons shall prophesy, you old men shall dream dreams, your younge men shall see visions;...I will pour out my Spirit. And I will show wonder in the heavens and in the Earth ; Blood, and Fire, and Pillars of Smoke. THe sun shall be turned into blood, before the Great and terrible Day of the Lord come. and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delievered; For in Mt Zion and in jerusalem, is delieverence, as the Lord hath said, and in the REMNANT who the Lord shall call." The Cosmic disturbances are seen in almost all end times passages such as...Isaiah 13;Joel 2; Zechariah14; Matthew24; Luke21, Mark13, Rev 6:12-15; Rev 11:15-19; Rev 16:17-21 And these signs happen at the End of the Trib.
So, the Holy Spirit is Not in a Pre-Pentecost state, because we see in these latter times of trouble that he's pouring out his Spirit like he did do on the Day of Pentecost. :clap:
Those passages do not conflict with any I have written, Songbird.
Do cosmic disturbbances HAVE to be caused by the Holy Spirit? Don't think so! God the Father is perfectly capable! :clap:
 
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FreeinChrist

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*Song Bird* said:
Who is 'we' pretibbers? Because, I am speaking from my experience and I have talked to some who do bleleive that.
Pretribbers. And some do believe that - but usualy not well versed ones, in my experience.

Ok...The Holy Spirit wasn't retraining any evil until the day of Pentecost?
You are making a strawman. The Holy Spirit didn't retrain evil through the church until the Day of Pentecost.

Doesn't mean that God didn't restrain evil prior to the making of the church.

Sorry ,too-many verses go against that...also you propose a probelm...that mean man cannot call upon Christ and be saved during the Tribulation. Pre-Pentecost world did not have the opportunity...if we return that way...how will their be saints in the Tribulation?
The Holy Spirit will still be here. I already stated that, Songbird. Man will still be able to call on God..and will need to refrain from taking the mark and worshipping the Antichrist and his image. If they do - they are doomed and the Holy Spirit will not help them.

. Who said he has to be omnipresent? Satan is not, demons are not...we are told that angles fight the power of Satan and his demons . Michael is in charge of keeping Israel safe.
So ONE angel is restraining all the workings of Satan and his demons. Looking into the Greek - I don't see the reference to the restrainer as an army but as One. Michael is overseeing Israel - not all the workings of Satan and his efforts to bring in the antichrist. And it doesn't necessarily say in scripture that Michael is to keep all of Israel safe. If you see the Tribulation as a reconciliation of Israel to God, this is easier to understand.
And consider this - is 'amad' is standing down', and Michael has been standing up all this time, why hasn't history been kinder to the Jews? Go find a good history of the jews - the facts will astound you. You will see that the Holoaust was just a cummination of a series of actions over centuries - of labeling, removing property, killing them, restricting where they live, theInquistion, crusades (1200 burned to death in the Synagogue there), various laws and decrees that were meant to make them less than human...then finally the Holocaust.


So, God would have to releave him of his duties, for a ruler(possesed by Satan) to be able to come after his chosen people.
Another strawman. As Michael is the the Restrainer, this makes no sense. It doesn't make sense in any way that I can see.

So, why is Daniel standing up, or stepping aside?
I assume you mean why is Michael standing up in Daniel 12 - corresponds will to Rev. 12 - which is at the midpoint of the 7 year trib, before the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble. Michael stands up - makes war with Satan and his angels. This fits with the definition of 'amad' very well.
If he's not the restrainer, ...what else is so important that he's doing that it has to be mentioned before talking about the tribulation?
I find it curious that people feel a need to reject God the Holy Spirit as the one who is able to restrain the workings of Satan and his demons until the time that GOD Himself has decided will be the Tribulation. Only God knows the time. Only God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. As Michael dared not contend with Satan on his own over the body of Moses (see Jude), how is it that Michael could restrain?
 
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Brain Damage said:
Well I for one won't be surprised if there's no pre-trib rapture , considering that the christians 2000 yrs ago all thought the end would happen in their time and yet they never expected to be raptured prior to any tribulation they went through , they knew and expected that they would have to die from persecution and they did .



What gave them the idea that it was to happen in their life and why did it not happen?
 
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Just The Facts

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Quote

What you will do and feel if there's no rapture ?

End Quote

[font=&quot] I will feel like God's words to the Prophets have been fulfilled.

Hi freein Christ

Why do you think the Holy Spirit is he who restrains there are no verses saying the Holy Spirit now restrains the AC.

What restrains the AC is Chains of Darkness. This is very simple to see.
here is the AC in the Pit

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

WHO IS HE?

11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

HE IS THE KING OF THE PIT........THE KING OF THE FALLEN ANGELS.

WHY IS HE IN THE PIT?

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

WHEN DOES HE GET OUT?

1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2: And he opened the bottomless pit;


See very simple you just have to believe and trust God's Word..
[/font]
 
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diantha

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FreeinChrist said:
:rolleyes: Amazingly enough, all the pretribbers I know have their faith in Christ, and are not basing their salvatation on a pretrib rapture! And pretrib isn't even the focus of our lives.....it's Christ!
I really, really get tired of the subtle and not so subtle attempts at questioning our faith just because of our endtime view!! :( It is truly offensive to pretribbers!
:bow: You are so right! It's wrong to say we believe the devil because we are pre-trib!
You are right,we adore Jesus,not a rapture view,and how can anyone claim to be a true christian and not want to be with Jesus as soon as possible?
Isaiah 26:19-21 seems to clearly indicate that the dead rise first before the tribulation.Romans 5:9 we are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Our robes are already white in Christ,but the tribulation saints in Rev had to make their robes white. The last trump in Rev indicates more woe's to the world,but the last trump with a voice indicates great blessing and we are told to comfort one another with it.
The bible tells us so many times to be ready to meet Christ,not antichrist,and there is a mystery between Christ and the church.
The holy Ghost must be the restrainer! Only God can restrain such evil,amen.
The believe the Holy Ghost will once again work as he did in the old testament times before the pentecost when we are taken out of the way.
I have been verbally abused because I'm a believer in the pre-trib view so many times,and we know it cannot be from God what they believe when they show so much hate and aggression! It's wrong to say we are not christians over our position about the rapture!
satan would love for us to miss it! I hope those left behind won't feel unloved or rejected by God when they see that the rapture did happen before the tribulation. We have already been purified by Jesus,only the trib saints need to be purified,because God's holy would says be ready to meet Christ,not antichrist!
the 24 elders are all men redeemed from the earth,and they are from every nation,kindred and tongue it says in Revelation,and they will be priests and kings and will reign on earth,this shows that the Bema judgment happens before the antichrist comes and before the tribulation,not even the first seal is broken yet.
satan has more to gain by causing christians to miss the rapture,because if there is no rapture,we will believe that we mis-understood,and try to be strong,but those who miss the rapture,who had no faith in it,may feel rejected by God!
thats just how satan wants them to feel!
If you want to see if pre-trib believers are hated,visit The Mountain Retreat message board and tell them you are a pre-tribber in a kind and loving way,and see what you get,and how fast they jump all over you! Just a test!!!
They really get angry,to put it mildly.They say we are not true christians just over our belief in the pre-trib,just over the rapture,the say these things!
be careful to all pre-trib believers,the world is out to take your view away from you,and they are aggressive about it!
The rapture should have no place in deciding who is a christian or not.Our faith is in Jesus,who bought us with his life,his blood!!!
We should agree it's the Lord Jesus who saves,not what we believe about the rapture,amen.
To all who believe in the pre-trib,out of love,I say be very careful in this world today!!! Remember,satan is the ruler right now of the world,and what he believes,we should be totally against,and there will be a great falling away in the last days,and most will be lovers of themselves and money,love will be rare,and most will fall away from the true faith,so this proves that there won't be many true believers left,they will just have a form of godliness but they won't believe in the power of it! remember,what is most popular in the last days is most likely not of God!!! Be strong out there,and be careful!
Don't be rude to those who say evil about you,be like Jesus,and be nice while they are being mean.Give no appearrance of worldliness. Jesus too,was called a rebel by the religious groups of his days on earth before he died on the cross and rose the 3rd day! If the world loves you,then you cannot be of God,but if the world hates you,remember it also hated our Lord Jesus too!
Many will say they are christians in the last days,but they won't believe in the holy power of it!!!
May God keep all of you safe,and hold on to what you know,o.k?
 
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diantha

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[COLOR=Indigo said:
undefined[/COLOR]undefined :scratch: I have heard the oposite,most pre-tribbers know what to expect if they miss the rapture or if it doesn't happen.many who don't believe in the rapture before the trib are not ready for Jesus to return and at least one told me this.The pre-trib view can produce much cleaner living and a purer life.The pre-trib view makes people want to live better.
It surely does not hurt anyone.
Many people don't want to focus just on Jesus,and don't really want to live for just him,or surrender their lives 100% to him,but thats the only way to live! We must let Jesus live through us.Those ready to meet Jesus are not as afraid of death as those who are not ready!
many,people,and I am not accusing you,just many people out there are too concerned with the cares of this one life,and many people love the world more the Jesus.
Enoch did not die,he was taken to heaven,and Elijah.
Noah was not an escapist,and God rescued Lot.But many today act like Lot's wife who don't want to leave the wicked city.
Many people don't understand the parable of the ten virgins and why God likens it to his kingdom! All ten virgins were christians because they were all virgins.5 were wise and five were not.
God tells us to be ready many,many times to meet Jesus CHrist not antichrist.
Romans 5:9 says we are justified by the blood of Jesus.
The saints in Revelation had to make their robes white,but our robes are already white. In the last days people will be lovers of money,and lovers of themselves,just having a form of godliness yet denying it's power. There will be a great falling away of the faith.
The pre-trib view was taught by the early church,Ephraem the Syrian A.D. 373,and Clement and Polycarp also taught it among others.
We should hate what satan is for,and be against it. Popular world opinion is normally not from God,because the bible says he who loves the world is not a friend of God.The world will hate you,like it hated Jesus!
Be careful of the new trends,and remember,it's not what you believe about the rapture that counts most,it's what you believe about Jesus Christ.
in his love,amen.
 
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*Song Bird*

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The Holy Spirit didn't retrain evil through the church until the Day of Pentecost.
Site you verses.
Man will still be able to call on God..and will need to refrain from taking the mark and worshipping the Antichrist and his image. If they do - they are doomed and the Holy Spirit will not help them.
Withouth the power of the Holy Ghost, they will not be able to resist
And consider this - is 'amad' is standing down'
Why should I consider it difffernt then what it means? "Stand up, stand still, cease"

What is coming on this Earth will be far greater then the Holocaust.
Strawman? Maybe what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you, because you will not let it.
God is over charged everthing, but he gives jobs and positions to his angles.
 
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*Song Bird*

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Diantha,

It's wrong to say we believe the devil because we are pre-trib!
You are right,we adore Jesus,not a rapture view,and how can anyone claim to be a true christian and not want to be with Jesus as soon as possible?
I am a postribber, I don't think someone's not a Christian for beleiving in Pre-trib Rature, nor have I ever conversed with someone who did. I do however beleive that They will be decieved easily when there is not a Rapture and the AntiChrist comes on the stage all peaceful etc...
I want to see Jesus as soon as I can :clap: But, I'm not going to make up a whole Theory that's not Biblical, just because I want to see him sooner.
Isaiah 26:19-21 seems to clearly indicate that the dead rise first before the tribulation.
Oh really...

"In that day ( Day of the Lord's wrath) shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust[...]
Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.( This analogy is often used, in end time passages, and in Revaltion)
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

Verses 3 and 4 are quoted so oftern, and yet alomst know one knowns the Lord was talking about during the Tribulation! So we enter chambers too...


there is a mystery between Christ and the church.

Revelations10:7 says that, “In the days of the voice of the seventh angle when he’s about to sound, (the seventh trumpet), then the mystery of God is finished”

I hope those left behind won't feel unloved or rejected by God when they see that the rapture did happen before the tribulation
I know that there will be many who will feel that way, after the Rapture did not happen. They'll be apart of the 'Great Falling Away.'

Many who don't believe in the rapture before the trib are not ready for Jesus to return and at least one told me this.The pre-trib view can produce much cleaner living and a purer life.The pre-trib view makes people want to live better.
It's harder to exsept the fact that we'll be here, and therefore we need to be livin righ tand doin a whole lot more to be pre-pared, so that day will not over take us as a Theif! To make it through the tribulation , we will have to be 100 % sold out to Christ, and filled with his power. I don't think many proclaiming Christians today are.

Many people don't understand the parable of the ten virgins and why God likens it to his kingdom! All ten virgins were christians because they were all virgins.5 were wise and five were not.

No, many don't understand it. They were all Christians, but half weren't prepared. They didn't have the Oil ( Holy Ghost power) to make it through the night( Tribulation).

The pre-trib view was taught by the early church,Ephraem the Syrian A.D. 373,and Clement and Polycarp also taught it among others.
( See next post)


Popular world opinion is normally not from God

Pre- Trib. rapture view is the Popular View. It has all the best-selling books and videos, and TV preachers...etc. I only know of one TV evangelist that teaches post, and I've only met other post-tribbers over the web. Pre-tibbers are everywhere.
 
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*Song Bird*

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Great Quote by Corrie Ten Boom, a great women of God who withstood the Nazi Persecution and hide jews...

"I have been in countries where that saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China the Christians were told 'Don't worry, before the Tribulation comes, you will be translated-raptured' Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. later I heard a Cishop from China say sadly,' We hhave failed. We should have made the people strong for persecutionrather than telling them Jessus would come first.'
"Turning to me he said, 'You still have time. Tell the people how to be stronge in times of persecution, how to stand when the Tribulation comes-to stand and not faint.'
" I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be stronge in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the Tribulation..." Since I have gone already through prison for Jesus sake, and since I met that bishop from China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think 'hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation' Then I write it down and learn it by heart."



Also, concerning other men and women of God, Here's a list of notable studied Postribbers:

Jay Adams-William Albright-Archibald Alexander-J. A. Alexander-Henry Alford
Oswald T. Allis -S.J. Andrews-Matthew Arnold-Francis Asbury-G. L. E.Bachmann -H. A. Baker-Glen Barker-David Baron-Freeman E. Barton-Don Basham-Clarence Bass-Walter Bauer-J. Sidlow Baxter-Richard Baxte-W. J. Ern Baxter-George Beasley -I. T. Beckwith-J. A. Bengel-Donald E. Benson-G. Fred Bergin-Louis Berkhof-G. C. Berkouwer -J. H. Bernard-Robert Besancon-Peter Beyerhaus-E. H. Bickersteth-W. E. Biederwolf -R. V. Bingham-Del Birkey-T. R. Birks-C. Y. Biss-J. Allen Blair-Friedrich Bleek-Horatius Bona-William Booth-David Brainerd-Al Brickner-Thomas Brightman-Michael Brigmond-J. A. Broadus-Charles Brokenshire-J. W. Brooks-John Bunyan-Thomas Broughton-David Browl-Lionel Brown-W. G. Brown-F. F. Bruce-William Burgh-Clarke Burkhalter-Herbert W. Butt-John Calvin-Robert Cameron-Edward J. Carnell -B. H. Carroll-Buddy Carroll-Johnny Carroll-Alexander Carson-Thomas Chalmers-Robert Chapman-R. H. Charles-T. K. Cheyne-Thedor Christlieb-John Chrysostom-W. W. Church-Adam Clarke-Dwayne Clymer -Edmund P. Clowney-Harry Conn-W. J. Conybeare-Charles T. Cook- Ed Corley -J. J. Van CosterzeeJay Adams, Randy Alcorn, Henry Alford, Matthew Arnold, J. Sidlow Baxter, David Brainerd, F. F. Bruce, John Bunyan, John Calvin, B. H. Carroll, William Cowper, John Gill, Robert Gundry, Hank Hanegraaff, Carl F. H. Henry, William Hendriksen, Matthew Henry, Herschell Hobbs, Adoniram Judson, John Knox, George Eldon Ladd, Hugh Latimer, C. S. Lewis, J. B. Lightfoot, Harold Lindsell, C. S. Lovett, Martin Luther, Walter Martin, Dave McPherson, Jack McAlister, Alexander McLaren, John Warwick Montgomery, Doug Moo, G. Campbell Morgan, H. C. G. Moule, George Mueller, Andrew Murray, Sir Isaac Newton, John Newton, Harold J. Ockenga, J. Edwin Orr, Ian Paisley, Bernard Ramm, Paul Rees, A. T. Robertson, Marv Rosenthal, Francis Schaffer, Oswald J. Smith, Charles Spurgeon, John R. W. Stott, A. H. Strong, Merrell Tenny, J. H. Thayer, B. B. Warfield, Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, John Wesley, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, Ulrich ZwingliNathaniel West-H. L .Lindsay Young-Jonathan Edwards-Charles Finney-Don Montgomery etc... the list goes on...
 
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