The NATURAL MAN cannot receive SPIRITUAL THINGS

nobdysfool · Mar 27, 2004

No one is disputing that understanding of spiritual things happens after receiving the Spirit, which happens after saving belief.

But the issue here is what is it that allows the man to believe savingly where before he did not?

That is the issue. That is the question.

The natural man is spritually dead,

unable to hear or understand that he is lost,

condemned already,

destined for Judgment.

In order for him to believe savingly, something must happen to his spirit to enable him to exercise saving faith.

What happens is that God revives, regenerates, resusitates, makes alive his dead, stone cold spirit (heart), so that the words of the Gospel produce a response in his newly revived heart, in order to believe and receive. It cannot be the words themselves, otherwise every person who has ever heard, hears, or will hear the Gospel would immediately be saved. So it must be something that happens to the individual heart, the individual spirit of that man, which changes how he perceives those words, which he may have heard several times before with no effect on him, no response other than indifference or derision.

The change is in his heart, and that change is wrought by God, not by the man himself.

It is the perception of the Gospel as not being folly that causes the man to respond with belief, where before he responded with indifference or derision. He doesn't believe, and then see the Gospel as not being folly, he hears the Gospel, and because it is no longer folly to him, he believes. That is the work of God in his heart, the regeneration that I speak of. Resusitation, if you will. It is not the indwelling of the Spirit, it is the quickening of the heart so that the man may hear and believe.

That is utterly and solely the work of God, done BEFORE BELIEF, in order that the man becomes enabled to believe.

The man is the one who believes, AFTER he is quickened SO THAT HE CAN believe.

Symantics, Ben. Your definition of regeneration is not the same as mine. Therein lies the confusion, and the misperception on your part of what I am saying.

This is where your theology breaks down, Ben. As long as the preaching of the Cross is foolish to him, he WILL NOT believe. In order for him to believe, he must see the preaching of the Cross as not being foolish, but rather as being the Power of God to him.

To believe savingly, his heart must already be regenerated in order to believe, because as I have said,

and you agreed,

saving faith resides in the regenerate heart.

Are you now denying that?

Do you now say that a man can believe savingly while his heart is still unregenerate?

In essence, saying that saving faith can dwell in the unregenerate heart?

What happens in a man's heart that causes him to believe whereas before he did not?

Is it his mood?

A chemical imbalance in his brain?

A change in his lifestyle?

A new haircut?

New clothes?

A new girlfriend?

Winning the lottery, putting him in an exceptionally good mood?

Or, is it God reviving, resusitating, quickening his heart to hear the Gospel differently than he did before, this time responding with saving faith, resulting in his salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, opening his heart and mind to the things of the Spirit of God?

Regeneration, as I use the term, (which I have explained well enough that you should understand that I am not using the term as you insist on defining it), comes first, which enables the man to respond with saving faith to the Gospel.

You agree that saving faith is only present in the regenerated heart.

Then how can a man exercise saving faith before he is regenerated?

You have contradicted yourself.

Again, Answer the question, Ben:

Can an unregenerate man have saving faith in his heart?

Yes or No?

dnich163 · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
.....And contradicted is the idea that "God regenerates us and makes us spiritually aware BEFORE we believe, and SO THAT we CAN believe." Paul says, "we received the Spirit, that we might KNOW spiritual things; we receive the Spirit AFTER BELIEVING."

It is "BELIEF-IN-CHRIST that makes us alive". It is NOT "alive-in-Christ that makes us believe"...

This sounds too much like a limitation to the ability of the Holy Spirit(God) to me.
I don't agree here.
David

rnmomof7 · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
That's exactly the point, RnMom. The Spirit indwells those who BELIEVE. I cited two verses that say "you received the Spirit, AFTER BELIEVING. 2Cor2:14 says, "we RECEIVE the Spirit THAT we might now the things given to us by God."

Believe-Jesus-RECEIVE-SPIRIT => become SPIRITUAL => understand spiritual things

Ben do you know that the Holy Spirit did not indwell men in the OT ?

That does not diminish His power to work on and in men .

We only read of an indwelling presence one time (an artisan that worked on the making things for the temple )

Other than that the Holy Spirit rested on them, to empower or lead.
The indwelling of believers did not begin until Pentecost .

So Scripture supports that The Holy Spirit ca lead and guide without being indwelling..so you point is moot

In other words, usage of this passage to assert "the natural man CANNOT undersatnd spiritual things, so he MUST be regenerated FIRST" --- is now disproven.

Not really Ben.

If the natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit he would have to be " Not natural" to understand them.
What would make him not natural so that he could receive them?

Can one believe something he can not hear or understand ?

Mar 4:9
And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 4:10
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mar 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Mar 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Conviction. The NATURAL MAN listens, understands, is convicted; believes, receives the Spirit, and becomes spiritual --- becomes able to understand spiritual things. Can this be disputed? How?

My question exactly

How can one that can not see a message or hear it or desire it or understand it be convicted by it?

There's really only one thing that makes sense, RnMom. If God reveals Himself to ALL MEN, "helkuo-dragging-drawing ALL to Himself" (Jn12:32), then each is free to BELIEVE, or to DISBELIEVE. Undeniably it is BELIEF that RECEIVES the Spirit, and RECEIVING the Spirit is what makes him spiritually aware.

As I just pointed out above , God does not give a SAVING revelation of Himself to all men.

Even in the physical presence of Christ they did not believe

Jhn 12:37**
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

2Ti 2:25**
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

Ben ,

Salvation is all of God 100%.

That is a very humbling knowledge, there is not one thing we desire to do , or can do to be saved

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jhn 6:65no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

CCWoody · Mar 27, 2004

Ben, you do realize that your view has been denounced by the church as the Pelagian heresy, don't you?

frumanchu · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
It's not a question of either grace OR faith --- the entire phrase presents a CONCEPT. As the Greek instructor said, "that fact". The concept is SALVATION, which is represented by ALL the words: "by grace through faith have you been saved". THAT is not of yourselves.

You clearly did not bother to actually read and think through what was written above, Ben. Four possibilities were put forth:

Grace is antecedent of the demonstateive pronoun 'touto' (that) (meaning "and that grace not of yourselves it is the gift of God")
Faith is antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun...frumanchu's interpretation (meaning "and that faith not of yourselves it is the gift of God")
The concept of grace-by-faith-salvation is anticedent of the demonstrative pronoun, in keeping with the first citation of Wallace above (meaning "and that salvation-by-grace-through-faith not of yourselves it is the gift of God")
'kai touto' has an adverbial force and has no anticedent, rather meaning "and especially"

Wallace ruled out syntax as being definitive, leaving grammar and context.

With respect to context:

There are actually two verbs where the English reads one. The main verb is 'este' meaning ye are, the second verb is 'sesoosmenoi' (having Greek font capabilities on this forum would make life sooooo much easier

) which is a perfect passive participle, a verbal adjective. It doesn't interpret easily into English, but basically, the meanings is as stated above. It is passive, so the action is being performed on the antecedent (ye). It is clear that "having been saved" cannot be the antecedent of 'touto'. In this particular case there is no concord in either gender or number.

That RULES OUT your position (number 3) as well as number 4.

Grace is by definition "not of yourself" The only thing that could be left would be faith.

That RULES OUT number 1.

All that is left is number 2: Faith is antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun!

And just be sure, the context is checked:

Look at the next verse which reads (roughly translated from the Greek ~sorry, don't have an English version handy at the moment~) "Not out of works in order that no one should boast" Based on verse 8, which of the alternatives could possibly be considered as a work? Not salvation, that is passive voice, not Grace, because it is by definition not a work. The only alternative left here is Faith.

Context and grammar affirm what they syntax already allowed for, that it is FAITH that is the gift.

They were active enough when they RECEIVED Him and BELIEVED on His name...

But verse does not support your assertion that they received Him and believed and THEN were born of God. They received and believed in Him and then were given the power/authority to become sons of God. That cannot be equated with being "generated/born" of God because the power and authority is given to the men, but the verb in v13 is aorist passive with the anticedent being the men ("as many as received"), therefore the men were completely passive with respect to being "generated/born" of God.

You position is not found in this verse, Ben.

This is absolutely identical to the parable of Matt22:2-14; they were all CALLED, but the FEW who were CHOSEN are those who RECEIVED the invitation...

Funny...I seem to remember there being more involved...something about wedding garments not being worn by one who received the invitation...

Thanx for getting this back on track. It says what it says --- we "know spiritual things, through the RECEIVED Spirit". We receive the Spirit, when we BELIEVE in Jesus. 1Cor1:14 & 2:12-14 CANNOT be used to say "they must be SPIRITUALLY DISCERNING, BEFORE they believe in Jesus." The context says the OPPOSITE: "they must believe in Jesus BEFORE they can be spiritually discerning." Undeniable.

Let me be clear on this, Ben.

The unregenerate man sees the Gospel as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18). His carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to the Law of God(Rom 8:7,8). He can no more change his ways by himself than an Egyptian can change his skin or a leopard his spots (Jer 13:23). He does not receive the things of God for he has absolutely no ability to spiritually discern anything (1 Cor 2:14).

What you are saying is that given all those conditions somehow a man believes what he finds foolish, that he somehow receives what he does not receive, that for the sake of foolishness he comes to the light that he by nature abhors, that he somehow changes his spots, that he somehow seeks the God which he has not sought since birth. And above all that, there is still some factor that differentiates between those who do embrace foolishness and those who continue to reject it as foolishness.

The verse plainly says that "it is through belief in Jesus that one BECOMES spiritual, that one CHANGES from seeing the Cross as "folly" to "power".

No, it is through belief in Jesus that one receives/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference. But furthermore, as I just pointed out, you are actually advocating that men believe in what they see as pure folly (despite the fact that 1 Cor 2:14 says they REJECT such foolish things) and only after believing and being indwelt by the Spirit do they even understand what it was they believed in in the first place. Are you really going to sit here and say with a straight face that you and I and everyone else here, when we put our faith in Christ were knowingly putting our faith in something we found foolish and "folly?!?" I can't speak for your experience or anyone else's, but I know from mine that I didn't put my faith in something I found foolish. I put my faith in Christ with a sufficient understanding of just how serious the situation was.

Foolish things to not convict one's heart. Your doctrine is sufficient proof of that.

It was completely successful. The assertion that "God must make us discerning TO believe", is overthrown. Paul plainly says "the RECEIVED Spirit is what makes us spiritually discerning". And the Spirit is received THROUGH BELIEF.

Ben, do we have a spirit? Is there a spiritual aspect to our being apart from the Holy Spirit Himself? Of course there is (Rom 8:16). God must quicken our spirit to life (regenerate us) for us to even understand the truth of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does not have to indwell us to quicken our spirit. It seems to me that you are incorrectly equating regeneration with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they are two separate things.

Overturned is the idea of "spiritual regeneration precedes belief". Here it says "belief receives Jesus, receives the Spirit; the received Spirit makes us spiritually discerning." Black-n-white.

Again, you are left with men believing in what they find foolishness and do not understand. How can their be contrition and conviction from something one doesn't even understand and finds ridiculous? And moreover, we are STILL left wondering what the differential factor is between those who accept foolishness blindly and those who reject it.

You've been advocating wisdom as a part of the path to belief. Wise men who put their faith in foolish things they do not understand are not very wise are they? More likely just lucky.

"Christian-Only" said it beautifully:
the carnal man ought to be able to understand the Gospel and the rebirth. And having gotten that far, he can submit to both. But until he sumbits to them, he can get no further. Now after he has submitted to the Gospel and rebirth, that is after he has believed the Gospel and repented of his sins and confessed that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" and ...received the gift of the Holy Spirit, then he will be able to understand spiritual things. But if he believe not the earthly, how will he believe the spiritual?

Contradicted is the idea that "BELIEVING in JESUS is a SPIRITUAL THING that UNREGENERATED MAN CANNOT DO".

Contradicted by whom? By christian-only? Sorry, but contradicting him does not exactly give me pause for thought. He makes an unsupportable assertion right at the very beginning, essentially including the conclusion as the first premise: that "carnal man ought to be able to understand the Gospel." 1 Cor 1:18 DIRECTLY REFUTES such a notion. The carnal mind is enmity against God, and it sees the Gospel as foolishness. PERIOD. I'm not the one facing a contradiction here.

1. The unspiritual man does not accept the things of God, they are foolishness. 1Cor2:14
2. The spiritual is one who has RECEIVED the Spirit. 1Cor2:12
3. One RECEIVES the Spirit, AFTER (and through) believing in Jesus. Acts11:15-17, Eph1:13

Which one of these do you deny?

I reject number two. You seem to think that man doesn't have a spirit.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

NBF said:
Can an unregenerate man have saving faith in his heart?
Yes or No?

There is only one answer: YES. It is BELIEF that RECEIVES the Spirit, it is the Spirit that regenerates.

"For the word of the Cross is to the perishing FOOLISHNESS; but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." WHEN one believes the Gospel, THEN the word ceases to be foolishness, and is recognized as salvation. It is belief that changes the heart, it is belief that receives Jesus and the Spirit.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

The natural man is spritually dead, unable to hear or understand that he is lost...

Please show me where the Bible says that a unsaved person cannot understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The man is the one who believes, AFTER he is quickened SO THAT HE CAN believe.

Do you believe there are TWO regenerations? Titus alone presents the sequence: "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified in His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak cinfidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds."

1. Regeneration is by the Holy Spirit
2. The Holy Spirit is poured upon us THROUGH JESUS our SAVIOR
3. Those who BELIEVED GOD

Combine this with 1Cor. and the others:
4. A natural man does not accept spiritual things 1Cor2:14
5. We BECOME spiritual BY RECEIVING the Spirit 1Cor2:12
6. The Holy Spirit is received AFTER BELIEVING IN JESUS Acts11:15-17, Eph1:13

Which one of these can be disputed? How can the idea of "regeneration preceding belief" continue? Yes the carnal man CAN believe in Jesus; it IS that belief that ENDS his carnal nature...

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

dnich said:
This sounds too much like a limitation to the ability of the Holy Spirit(God) to me.
I don't agree here.
David

What is the limitation, David? How do you understand the Scripture?

CCWoody · Mar 27, 2004

nobdysfool said:
Can an unregenerate man have saving faith in his heart?
Yes or No?

Ben johnson said:
There is only one answer: YES. It is BELIEF that RECEIVES the Spirit, it is the Spirit that regenerates.

Pelagius couldn't have said it any better.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

RnMom said:
So Scripture supports that The Holy Spirit can lead and guide without being indwelling..so you point is moot

The point is critical. The Calvinist argument asserts that "we must be regenerated BEFORE we can believe in Jesus". But Scripture says "regeneration is BY the Spirit, we gain the ability to understand spiritual things THROUGH THE RECEIVED SPIRIT. The Spirit is received through belief in Jesus. The question is "REGENERATION => BELIEF", or "BELIEF => REGENERATION". We have shown that belief precedes (and causes, by the received Spirit) regeneration.

If the natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit he would have to be " Not natural" to understand them.
What would make him not natural so that he could receive them?
and one believe something he can not hear or understand ?

Conviction.

Mar 4:9
Mar 4:10
Mar 4:11
Mar 4:12

The problem is that you have long been including "believing Jesus" in with these verses. The context speaks of "SPIRITUAL THINGS" --- which (according to the context), they WOULD have been given IF they had BELIEVED.

Believing in Jesus is NOT one of the "spiritual things that only a PREVIOUSLY-REGENERATED-HEART can do"...

Mk4:11-12 is cross-referenced to Isaiah, and Jeremiah. Let's look at Jeremiah 5:19-21: "As you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you shall serve strangers in a land that is not yours. Declare this in the house of Jacob and proclaim it in Judah, saying: 'Her this O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but see not, who have ears but hear not."

Let's look at Romans 11:7-10: "That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen (ELECT) obtained it, the rest were hardened; just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.' "

Now combine this with Romans 9:30-33: "The Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, ATTAINED righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. The stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it was written: 'Behold I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEES in Him will not be disappointed'."

Look now at 2Thessalonians for another application of this principle, 2:11-12: "For this reason God sends a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that all may be judged WHO DID NOT BELIEVE in the truth, but TOOK PLEASURE in wickedness."

The "did-not-believe", PRECEDED the "deluding influence"!

Do you understand the dynamic, RnMom? If they had believed God, THEN they would have believed Jesus. If they had believed Jesus, THEN they would have recognized their Messiah. (Jn8:42, 10:26) God "sending them a deluding influence, so that they may not hear nor see", is God honoring what they have ALREADY CHOSEN --- DISBELIEF.

The dynamic is that BLINDNESS and DEAFNESS is not the CAUSE of their disbelief, but the CONSEQUENCE!!!

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

Woody said:
Ben, you do realize that your view has been denounced by the church as the Pelagian heresy, don't you?

Pelagius believed that "man had inherent goodness, and of himself could find God". Christians understand tha we HAVE NO goodness, apart from Him we can do NOTHING (Jn15:5). But Scripture says that he sincerely calls to salvation ALL; which overcomes depravity in enough measure that the unregenerate man, CAN receive/believe Jesus. It is THROUGH that belief that the Spirit enters, it is THROUGH the Spirit that we are regenearted.

Is there any way to still assert that "we are regenerated BEFORE we beleive in Jesus and receive the Spirit"?

CCWoody · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
The point is critical. The Calvinist argument asserts that "we must be regenerated BEFORE we can believe in Jesus". But Scripture says "regeneration is BY the Spirit, we gain the ability to understand spiritual things THROUGH THE RECEIVED SPIRIT. The Spirit is received through belief in Jesus. The question is "REGENERATION => BELIEF", or "BELIEF => REGENERATION". We have shown that belief precedes (and causes, by the received Spirit) regeneration.

Are you stealing plays from Pelagius' playbook? You do know that the order belief then regeneration was condemned by the church as the Pelagian & semi-Pelagian heresies, don't you?

CCWoody · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Is there any way to still assert that "we are regenerated BEFORE we beleive in Jesus and receive the Spirit"?

Sure! You have merely presumed a salvation order and then are forcing that upon the texts. As a plain matter of Scriptural fact, you cannot find ANY verse anywhere which teaches that belief preceeds regeneration.

I, OTOH, can find a verse which EXPLICITLY states that those who believe have been born of God.

BTW, even if you are correct in your estimation of Pelagius, you still haven't grasped the full measure of what he believed and what was condemned as his heretical belief. For instance, the order belief unto regeneration was condemned by the church as heresy. I don't even have to work hard to find the pronouncements of multiple councils & snyods in condemnation of that order.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

Fru said:
Context and grammar affirm what they syntax already allowed for, that it is FAITH that is the gift.

I defer to the Greek scholars.
"New American Standard", Holman Bible Publishers, copyright 1960 ...1977; page 1018,
Eph2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [sup]1[/sup]that not of yourselves..."

8 [sup]1[/sup]I.e, that salvation

This was affirmed by the college professor ("I would say, 'that fact' "). And by others.

The unregenerate man sees the Gospel as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18). His carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to the Law of God(Rom 8:7,8). He can no more change his ways by himself than an Egyptian can change his skin or a leopard his spots (Jer 13:23). He does not receive the things of God for he has absolutely no ability to spiritually discern anything (1 Cor 2:14).

Your problem is not with me, but with Scripture. Man is regenerated BY the Holy Spirit. Man becoems spiritually discerning THROUGH the received Spirit. Man receives the Spirit THROUGH belief in Jesus. Regeneration is BY THE SPIRIT, which MUST follow belief in Jesus. That's what it says.

Funny...I seem to remember there being more involved...something about wedding garments not being worn by one who received the invitation...

This is the person that "goes to church but rejects His righeousness". The invitation wasn't really received...

What you are saying is that given all those conditions somehow a man believes what he finds foolish, that he somehow receives what he does not receive, that for the sake of foolishness he comes to the light that he by nature abhors, that he somehow changes his spots, that he somehow seeks the God which he has not sought since birth. And above all that, there is still some factor that differentiates between those who do embrace foolishness and those who continue to reject it as foolishness.

I'm afraid it clearly says that "an unregenerate man suffers CONVICTION and BELIEVES; through his belief the Spirit indwells him and regenerates him. Refer to post #27 above, and tell me which number you dispute...

No, it is through belief in Jesus that one receives/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference. But furthermore, as I just pointed out, you are actually advocating that men believe in what they see as pure folly (despite the fact that 1 Cor 2:14 says they REJECT such foolish things) and only after believing and being indwelt by the Spirit do they even understand what it was they believed in in the first place. Are you really going to sit here and say with a straight face that you and I and everyone else here, when we put our faith in Christ were knowingly putting our faith in something we found foolish and "folly?!?"

Nope --- conviction is what changes him from "folly" to "power"; it's not that "he believes what he sees as folly", but rather "conviction makes it no-longer-folly-to-him --- which IS BELIEF.

I reject number two. You seem to think that man doesn't have a spirit.

Calvinism asserts "his spirit is DEAD" --- that is, dead AND unable to believe Jesus. Scripture says that "his spirit is dead, BUT he is able to beleve Jesus --- THROUGH that belief, he is made alive."

Unless you can dispute one or more of the six points from Post #27 above, I don't see how "regeneration-precedes-belief" can persist...

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

Post #27, Woody. Which number is wrong?

And why?

CCWoody · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Please show me where the Bible says that a unsaved person cannot understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[snip]

Ok, Ben, if you want to talk about your post #27, then please do me one favor first:

Define what it means for man to be dead in sins.

After you do that, then, I'll be happy to address your post. However, until you define the terms, you are doing nothing more than playing a Pelagius "shell game."

frumanchu · Mar 27, 2004

Ben johnson said:
I defer to the Greek scholars.
"New American Standard", Holman Bible Publishers, copyright 1960 ...1977; page 1018,
Eph2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [sup]1[/sup]that not of yourselves..."

8 [sup]1[/sup]I.e, that salvation

This was affirmed by the college professor ("I would say, 'that fact' "). And by others.

Well, my scholars disagree with your scholars. Regardless, as I've said in the past, that view still does not contradict the Reformed position because the verse does not indicate the source or means of the faith through which salvation is achieved

Your problem is not with me, but with Scripture. Man is regenerated BY the Holy Spirit. Man becoems spiritually discerning THROUGH the received Spirit. Man receives the Spirit THROUGH belief in Jesus. Regeneration is BY THE SPIRIT, which MUST follow belief in Jesus. That's what it says.

This is the person that "goes to church but rejects His righeousness". The invitation wasn't really received...

Oh, I see. They only outwardly appeared to received it, but really had never received it to begin with? (sound familiar, Ben?)

I'm afraid it clearly says that "an unregenerate man suffers CONVICTION and BELIEVES; through his belief the Spirit indwells him and regenerates him.

You do realize that the majority of historic Christianity, Arminian, Wesleyan, Reformed and more, have condemned that very position (that unregenerate, carnal man can believe apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit) as unorthodox heresy? I STRONGLY suggest you rethink your entire line of reasoning, Ben. You are treading on very, VERY dangerous ground now.

Nope --- conviction is what changes him from "folly" to "power"; it's not that "he believes what he sees as folly", but rather "conviction makes it no-longer-folly-to-him --- which IS BELIEF.

Conviction is what changes him from "folly" to "power?" What convicts him? You are advocating that he is convicted by something he finds foolish! If that were possible, or even probable, I should think I would have adopted your Responsible Grace construct long ago. The fact is that in advocating that an unregenerate man, dead in his sins, unresponsive to the things of God, in slavery to his sin and at enmity with God, would actually be convicted by, embrace, and place saving faith in that which he finds to be utter foolishness, you are promoting sheer lunacy and temporary insanity as the initiating factors in the salvation of men.

Calvinism asserts "his spirit is DEAD" --- that is, dead AND unable to believe Jesus. Scripture says that "his spirit is dead, BUT he is able to beleve Jesus --- THROUGH that belief, he is made alive."

"His spirit is dead, but he is able to believe Jesus." Unbelievable, Ben. That is all I can say. Unbelievable.

Unless you can dispute one or more of the six points from Post #27 above, I don't see how "regeneration-precedes-belief" can persist...

It will persist despite any logical fallacies and linguistic gymnastics you can come up with. It is the view of the church fathers, it is the view of the Apostles, and it is the view of the Lord Himself. All three have very harsh words for what you are doing to the Word of God right now. You would do well to be mindful of them.

Speaking of "harsh words" perhaps you will answer here what you have refused to answer in the other threads:

Can you provide a link to the post in the forums where I used the word "libel" in reference to you? You've made this accusation and I have yet to see you back it up with any fact.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

Define what it means for man to be dead in sins.

"And you were dead in [by reason of] your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world,according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the ind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in [by reason of] our transgressions, made us alive together with [in] Christ (by grace have you been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace have you been saved..." Eph2:1-8

"Even so, consider youreselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present youreselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teachings to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteouseness, resulting in sanctification. ...for the wages of sin are death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom6:11-23

"Dead in sins", or footnoted in my Bible as "dead by reason of sins", is the antithesis of salvation. We abide either in Jesus (and repentance), or we abide in sins.

This is why Jesus says, in Jn15, "Abide in Me, and I in you. If anyone does not abide in Me he is thrown away as a branch, dries up, ....is gatherred and cast into the fire."

Tis is why John writes in 1:2:26-28, "...those who are trying to deceive you; ...now little children, abide in Him, SO THAT we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming."

This is why 2Jn warns us to "watch yourselves against deceivers, that you not lose what was wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Jesus, has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son."

This is why Heb3 warns us to "not be deceived by sin, to falling away from the living God (not-abiding).

This is why Peter warns us (2:3:14-17) to "be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Jesus; be on your guard lest unprincipled men lead you to fall from steadfastness" (fall-from-abiding).

This is why "abiding is believing, believing is abiding". Counter to Pelagious, we have NO goodness without Him; yet it is through belief that receives Jesius that He becomes our righteousness IN us.

Belief is the foundation. Belief receives the Spirit, the received Spirit regenerates us. Regeneration cannot and does not precede beleif.

Ben johnson · Mar 27, 2004

Fru said:
Well, my scholars disagree with your scholars. Regardless, as I've said in the past, that view still does not contradict the Reformed position because the verse does not indicate the source or means of the faith through which salvation is achieved

But it does answer those who say, "IT MEANS 'THAT-FAITH'."

Oh, I see. They only outwardly appeared to received it, but really had never received it to begin with? (sound familiar, Ben?)

No, if it was "only outwardly appeared", then it would have been "clean robe OVER filthy rags". But he didn't even take the clean robe, did he? He was "outwardly appearing as FILTHY"...

You do realize that the majority of historic Christianity, Arminian, Wesleyan, Reformed and more, have condemned that very position (that unregenerate, carnal man can believe apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit) as unorthodox heresy? I STRONGLY suggest you rethink your entire line of reasoning, Ben. You are treading on very, VERY dangerous ground now.

Who says I assert "NO PRIOR HOLY SPIRIT WORK"? Don't I believe that ALL MEN are sincerely called to salvation? I believe the CALL, draws us away from depravity in enough measure that we CAN believe. But what we have established, is the actual REGENERATION, is by the HOLY SPIRIT --- "by the Spirit, THROUGH JESUS OUR SAVIOR". Does that sound like "regeneration to the UNBELIEVER"? No! The Spirit must first be RECEIVED, by BELIEF...

Conviction is what changes him from "folly" to "power?" What convicts him? You are advocating that he is convicted by something he finds foolish! If that were possible, or even probable, I should think I would have adopted your Responsible Grace construct long ago. The fact is that in advocating that an unregenerate man, dead in his sins, unresponsive to the things of God, in slavery to his sin and at enmity with God, would actually be convicted by, embrace, and place saving faith in that which he finds to be utter foolishness, you are promoting sheer lunacy and temporary insanity as the initiating factors in the salvation of men.

It is foolishness UNTIL he believes. You are "stuck" in the idea that a carnal man cannot believe in the Gospel he hears. In the same way that Paul writes in 2Tim3:15, wisdom leads to salvic-faith, it is when he BELIEVES the Gospel that it ceases to be folly to him.

Am I conveying that adequately? It is not UNREGENERATION that causes him to see the Gospel as "folly", it is UNBELIEF...

"His spirit is dead, but he is able to believe Jesus." Unbelievable, Ben. That is all I can say. Unbelievable.

"you were dead in your sins, you were dead BY REASON OF your sins". That's the footnote in my Bible. SIN = UNBELIEF. The problem that makes your view ("regenerations precedes and fuels belief") untenable, is that these verses establish that regeneration does NOT precede belief...

It will persist despite any logical fallacies and linguistic gymnastics you can come up with. It is the view of the church fathers, it is the view of the Apostles, and it is the view of the Lord Himself. All three have very harsh words for what you are doing to the Word of God right now. You would do well to be mindful of them.

Let's not deal with them; whatever they believed, it was based on Scripture. We have what they had, Scripture. The passages we've discussed here say "belief receives the Spirit, and it is the SPIRIT that regenerates". Sequence is clear...

Bulldog · Mar 28, 2004

Ben, what is the point of the Holy Spirit regenerating if it's belief that comes first?

The NATURAL MAN cannot receive SPIRITUAL THINGS

The original! Accept no substitutes!

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