Why does the Torah scare so many people?

jgonz said:

Another classic knee-jerk reaction.

The Entire context of James 2: 1- 13 is about how faith in Yeshua removes discrimination. Not to judge people by their looks, etc. Then, starting with vs 14, James goes on to say that faith without works is Dead.

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Quaffer said:

Yes, whenever I've talked about how God is leading me towards following more of Torah as far as keeping shabbat, or celebrating Gods feasts, and/or not celebrating Christmas, easter, etc and not eating pork I've been accused of returning to legalism and following "another" Jesus. Referring to 2 Cor 11:4 where Paul refers to others who come preaching "another" Jesus.

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So then, if you are not sacrificing, then you ARE keeping the Torah? Please explain. Also, is works the same as Torah?

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talmidim said:

Shalom Quaffer,

Well said in your response. I could not agree more, but if you will allow me a small liberty with your post...

• Beating SOMEONE ELSE over the head with the Torah and telling them they MUST follow these rules to be saved = LEGALISM

• Learning Torah YOURSELF and following His precepts, statutes and commandments out of love and faith = RIGHTEOUSNESS

This is the freedom in Messiah that we read so much about in the Brit Chadashah (reNEWed TESTAMENT). But this freedom was written about long ago. Read the Book of Wisdom carefully for more information on this topic.

Thanks Quaffer. I hope you don't mind. I just saw this in your post and found this easier that rewriting the whole thing in a different way, when you had already done such a good job in the first place.

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ascribe2thelord said:

You wouldn't tell me that I am going to hell / not clean in the Lord because of pork, or shrimp, or such foods, right? Or have I misunderstood?

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ascribe2thelord said:

I feel a lot of legalism around me here ...

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Higher Truth said:

James 2

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

For those of you who are not sacrificing, you are not keeping the whole law of Moshe.

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talmidim said:

There are many verses that say that we are NOT to make sacrifices unless certain conditions are met. Commands that they had to be made in the place of His choosing, upon His altar, before His Tabernacle, by His priests, according to His statutes, for His stated purposes, etc...


I thought most people actually READ this stuff. What a disappointment to find that they have simply been listening to other people - that have ALSO not read this stuff...

Kinda hard to argue a point when the antagonist isn't familiar with the material.

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ascribe2thelord said:

You wouldn't tell me that I am going to hell / not clean in the Lord because of pork, or shrimp, or such foods, right? Or have I misunderstood? I feel a lot of legalism around me here ...

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Salvation and Torah run parallel , they weren't ment to compete(that was man's doing, making Salvation something to be earned, a carrot on a stick) Torah is not a carrot, it is a diamond , a want to, not a have to.
We don't have to live for the king, we get to live for the King....

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LJB42 said:

I also would like to know why this is such a common conclusion, but maybe makes sense considering the original post and the questions posed there.
I just don't understand why it always seems to go back to "legalism", as if anyone in any of these posts have claimed or insinuated ANYthing of the sort that could be construed as true legalism. At least I personally don't see it.
There is a bigger picture of truth than what I have been taught during my life as a Christian from certain places I've attended. I believe your desire for that bigger truth is directly related to the amount of truth that is revealed. You will work for truth if you really want to have it revealed.
To me this kind of crying foul and legalism just seems to protect what most of us hold most dear...our own self-justification and soulish needs. To have total freedom to some means "no responsibility".
To try and clarify my mess of a statement- I think a major part of that big picture is not breaking everything down into base terms of "Oh-so your saying I'm going to Hell for such and such". I believe most of people's hearts here are to take so seriously the things spoken of in G-d's Word that we just want to be able to MAXIMIZE every available thing He has in store for us, WHILE ON EARTH, and be a part of establishing His name here by being a light in as holy a way as possible with the truth we have at each point, without worrying about being absolutely perfect along the way. I believe this is pleasing to the L-rd, to strive for perfection in searching Him out, while realizing that we cannot attain ANYTHING without His giving it to us in the first place. It can seem to be a riddle or a total paradox to some.
I do not believe I am a king and a priest simply because I said a sinner's prayer and had a "regeneration" experience. I put more emphasis on working out my salvation as I believe the NT apostles actually encouraged us to do (I know this is COMPLETELY antithesis of what a lot of Christians believe).
To fight for your belief in a way that is always breaking everything down into terms of how much FREEDOM we have and righteous we already are, to me loses sight of how much work we truly have in front of us in running this race. I fear I know too many believers that think this is just a freedom gravy train until we get off it at some glorious rapture before the tribulation.
A marriage doesn't end like a fairy tale after the wedding ceremony, the real work begins when you actually try to LIVE with that er... lovely person. It actually takes some (monumental) effort.

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Higher Truth said:

If you answer my original question:

so since you refer to the New Covenant as renewed, then is the non renewed covenant still in order?



then I will adress your comments..


the antagonist

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Quaffer said:

When one renews their marriage vows, then are the non renewed vows still
in order?

In other words when one makes new promises does that mean they can renig on the originals? God is pretty clear about making vows and not keeping them. See Deut 23:23 If God tells us its sin to renig on our vows (verse 21) why would we conclude that is what He's done?

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ascribe2thelord said:

I would go somewhere along the lines of Galatians 3:28 and Romans 14:17.

-first - all are one in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek
-second - the kingdom of heaven is not about what we eat/drink or anything we put into or onto our bodies

You wouldn't tell me that I am going to hell / not clean in the Lord because of pork, or shrimp, or such foods, right? Or have I misunderstood? I feel a lot of legalism around me here ...

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Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:13-14 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:21 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Galatians 3:28 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:17 17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.
Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Galatians 4:29 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

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ascribe2thelord said:

I would go somewhere along the lines of Galatians 3:28 and Romans 14:17.

-first - all are one in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek
-second - the kingdom of heaven is not about what we eat/drink or anything we put into or onto our bodies

You wouldn't tell me that I am going to hell / not clean in the Lord because of pork, or shrimp, or such foods, right? Or have I misunderstood? I feel a lot of legalism around me here ...

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Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
Romans 14:2 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
Romans 14:3 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Romans 14:12 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:14-15 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:17 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:19-21 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

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NKJ 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

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Higher Truth said:

Thanks for your answer. I am waiting for Talmidim to answer, and then I will give my response.

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Quaffer said:

Are you what your faith icon claims?

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Higher Truth said:

you are out of line Quaffer...

my answer is based on scripture...not icons

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Quaffer said:

I'm sure everyone in this thread believes their answer is based on scripture and I'm not meaning to be offensive it's just that to me your line of thought seems to be very anti-Messianic Judaism. I apologize for being so blunt.

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Quaffer said:

In my being part of the Messianic movement only a little over a year my thought process is changing with learning the Bible through a Hebrew perspective vs the Americanized point of view. You are the first to still seemingly hold to the Gentile way of thought...or have I misunderstood?

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Higher Truth said:

And many of the chuch people would probably accuse me of being anti church, because I interrupt their "feelings", much like I do here sometimes.It is not about learning to be a better Jew. It is all about Christ and His finished work.


I

People realize the church has error, and then they flock to another movement that has just as much error.The Hebrew roots movement is one of those movements. It is non Jews thinking that they have to learn to be more Jewish to be a good believer. In this process, many of them go into denial, drop Christ from the picture, and then drive straight into rabbinic Judaism. It is not about being more Jewish. It is about foundational faith and understanding the finished work. I see the links and the terminology that are thrown around on this forum. I know the so called teachers who have generated this thought process. Most of the people teaching the so called "Hebraic interpretation" of the scriptures aren't even Jewish. I have watched many go from Charismatic, to Messianic, to a denial of Christ and then enter into a self styled form of Judaism. I think that it would be good for some here to re-read the book of Hebrews.


Hebrews 6
1 Because of this, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us be borne on to full growth, not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 of baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of dead ones, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if indeed God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age,
6 and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.

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