OSAS Part II

ZoneChaos · Jan 13, 2002

Below is Ben's last post in the previous OSAS thread in its entirety:

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Sure ben here we go...
"Col1:21-23" Ummm...no where do I see in this passage about loosing your salvation. It
just talks about not falling away from doing what is right, ie fufilling what God has
planned for you.

So, you believe in "Carnal Christianity", where someone can FALL AWAY from God, walk in sin continually, but they will still be saved???

"Gal5:4" Umm..if you are justifiing yourself by the law, then you are never saved in the
first place. Just read 2:26 This doesn't say anything about loosing your salvation
when you read the book of galatians and take this verse in context.

Uhhhmmmm, sorry, YES IT DOES... To be "severed from Christ", you must first be "IN Christ". To be "fallen from grace", you must first be "IN GRACE". The key is 5:1, where Paul is admonishing them-who-have-been-saved, to not return to a yoke of slavery (law)...

"1Tim4:1"

umm...where does that say loose your salvation? If you abandon your faith, was it God
given? Nope hence not REAL faith. What is Paul talking about here? He is talking
about mixing of the message with worldly things. He is talking about correcting others to
keep them right with God. Read verse 7.

"Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14"

The first passage in chapter 2 talks about drifting away not loosing your salvation, in
other words becoming a useless soldier in God's army. Again in the second passage it
is refering to the same thing. You can be rebelous when you're a christian, that doesn't
mean you loose your faith, if its true faith.

Back to the "carnal-but-SAVED-thing again, huh? What then, exactly, is "True Faith"???

"2Pet2:20-22 " This is refering to people who hear the message but turn away from it.
That is not talking about loosing salvation either

There is no passage in the Bible that more clearly speaks of saved Christians who "lose" their salvation. Let's look at 2Peter 1:1-4. I'm counting on you actually looking this passage up. These have "apofuego-escaped" the corruption that is in the world by lust, through the "epignosis-true-knowledge" of Jesus. Can we agree that these are SAVED??? Now look at 2:2:14. The "false ones never cease from sinning". Never. They are NOT SAVED. But they seek to entice the "Ontos-Apofuego-TRULY-ESCAPED" into sin, verse 18. These "truly escaped" are escaped by the " EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST" verse 20. They are SAVED. BUt in verses 20-22, they are "again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome, the second state is worse than the first." What was their first state? UNSAVED. Now they are WORSE THAN THAT. "Far better to have never KNOWN (epignosis variant) the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed to them..." They turned from the holy commandment, and became worse than before they were saved.. . But you believe THEY ARE STILL SAVED!!! I don't know what to do. I am commanded to love and not condemn, to admonish and not engage in factions and dissentions, to build and not destroy. How do I answer this with honor, respectfully? It seems clear that you deny the very words that Peter wrote. How can I argue further? If you do not accept what Scripture plainly says, then I have no argument for you...

"James 5:19-20 " Umm..nothing about loosing salvation here either. It talks about
turning a sinner. Now read what the passage is all about in verse 15. It talks about a
sinner asking for forgivness of their sins, Christians do that, that doesn't mean they
loose salvation. There is no implication of a death being death in hell.

Actually, yes there is. The Greek here for "soul" is "psuche", exactly as John uses in Rev20:4 to speak of "eternal spirits". "Death" here is "thanatos", which absolutely carries the meaning of "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell". Contrast this with James 2:26, where "spirit" is "pneuma", and "death" is "nekros"...

"2Jn2:8-9 " In verse 8 it is talking about working in christ. In verse 9 he is switching topics
in a way. He isn't refering to the same people. Still again no mention of loosing salvation.
On..on a side not, 2nd John only has one chapter so I asuumed you ment 1:8-9 and not
2:8-9.

Yes I meant chapter 1. No mention of "losing salvation"? You believe you can have salvation "but not have God"? Not according to 1Jn5:12. And to say that he "switched topics" between the two sentences, is exactly the argument that Jehovah's Witnesses use to answer Thomas's declaration, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" Jn20:28 JWs have you believe he was calling Jesus "LORD" and Jehovah "GOD". Doesn't work in context. Some groups think Jesus "jumped context" in Jn3:5, to indicate "water-baptism". But contextually, it says: "Water/flesh", and "spirit/Spirit"...

"And Heb 6, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING
AWAY"

Yes but as 1 John puts it, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin'the
one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We sin,
but they are forgiven already, it was taken care of at the cross. We cannot loose our
salvation once we have it.

You're obviously quoting from 1Jn5, especially verse 18. You have neglected to read the first of that chapter. "WHoever believes Jesus is born of God. Whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe (do) His commandments. ....(4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that has overcome the world, OUR FAITH. And who is the one who overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" He who is born of God, is he who BELIEVES. Is there any verse that says one cannot stop believing? No.

I have written a book, intended for publishing on "OSAS". I cite Scripture after Scripture. But it seems that some people will not believe the very words of the Bible. As we have just seen here---very clear meanings, total denial. Is it ME that has misunderstood? I do not think so. A good case can be made for OSAS with some specific Scriptures, like the ones that seem to say "predestined-election"; but when the Bible is taken in its entirity, OSAS just is not there. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (faith) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works lest anyone boast". Is that what Ephesians 2 says? "Faith-unto-salvation is a unilateral gift from God? The prepositional phrase is, "DIA PISTIS". Through faith. What is the subject of the sentence? The subject, is "God's free gift of grace". The three phrases ("<subject> through faith", "<subject> not of yourselves", and "<subject> not as a result of works"), all modify the one subject, "God's free gift of grace". There is only one way to read this: "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (grace) is not of yourselves, it is the free gift of God". Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself when he says in Rom10:17, "Faith comes by HEARING (the word of God)". And Peter, in 1:1:9, "obtaining as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls"!

The subject of this post, is "what is salvation?" This is really the heart of our discussion. Can one who says "the sinner's prayer" be saved? Yes. Can one who says "the sinner's prayer" NOT be saved? Yes. Salvation is a state of HEART. In a nutshell, salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. 1Jn1:6 Which is, identically, "born again", which is identically "abiding in Jesus and His teachings". So that we see that salvation is not a work or works, and it is certainly not a one-time-event.

Salvation is a life-long-walk.

And it is very possible to "NOT abide in Him, and fall from salvation". I shall post more Scriptures if anyone wishes; I would ask, that he who supports "OSAS" strive to contradict the points I make, Scripturally, just as I have striven to support them, Scripturally. Do we not agree that the Bible is inspired by God, and "all Scripture is GOD-BREATHED, and suitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thorougly equipped for every good work"? 2Tim3

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LouisBooth · Jan 14, 2002

Just one simple question. Is salvation God given or man earned?

epobre · Jan 15, 2002

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

Just one simple question. Is salvation God given or man earned?

"But when the KINDNESS and the LOVE of God our savior TOWARD man appeared, NOT by works of righteousness we have done, BUT according to His MERCY, He SAVED us, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly THROUGH Jesus Christ our savior, that having been JUSTIFIED BY GRACE we should BECOME heirs according to the hope of etenl life" (Titus 3:4-7).

Thus, SALVATION is given by God's GRACE (kindness, love, mercy) through faith (washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit).

LouisBooth · Jan 15, 2002

"Thus, SALVATION is given by God's GRACE "

Exactly and therefore it is perminent becuase there is nothing we can do to make it go away or make it come to us.

Ben johnson · Jan 15, 2002

So, uh, what happened here? And why don't all posts have the "edit" feature?

Just one simple question. Is salvation God given or man earned?

"Thus, SALVATION is given by God's GRACE "

The question between "Predestined-Election" advocates and "OSNAS" believers, is, "Does God impose salvation upon those whom He chooses?"

I cannot find single verse that supports this. There are some that seem to, like "He chose you before the foundation of the world", and "you did not choose Him but He chose you". But reading further, especially that 2nd passage, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friends. And YOU are My friends, IF you do what I command you." Even earlier in the chapter (Jn15 if you haven't guessed), "Abide in Me, and I in you; if anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a dried branch, and cast into the fire". Where is the "unilateral" in this? It seems instead, to be very much TWO WAY.

If God chose us UNILATERALLY, then please tell me what was the point of the parable in Matt22:1-14? It seems that this very parable illustrates nicely, that "God's CHOSEN, are they who first chose God"!

"For many are called, but few are chosen!" Who were called? EVERYONE! Who were chosen? ONLY THOSE WHO ACCEPTED, and clothed themselves with righteousness...

Salvation, Scripturally is not "given by God's grace". It is instead, provided by God's grace, "that whosoever BELIEVES is saved". This is born out in all the Gospels, very much so in "The Christian Life Detailed" (also known as "Romans"

), and in all of the letters by Paul, Peter, John, Jude, Titus, James...

Salvation is always two things---God's grace, and man's faith. Thus we are "without excuse" (Rom1:20), responsible for each's eternal destiny...

Thunderchild · Jan 15, 2002

I looked at OSAS very carefully. And in doing so learned that OSAS works very well - provided that no-one is saved before the moment of death.

If OSAS is correct, how does it account for the statement by Jesus that some will believe for a time, then fall away when persecution arises? How does it account for the statement by Jesus that there was one person who had been given to him by the Father, and yet that one had been lost.

The passage that underpins OSAS paraphrased is "those who follow me hear my voice and they cannot be wrested from my grasp." That passage as written can have NO other meaning. The concept therefore has an apparent validity - If a person is following Jesus, he cannot stop following, because Jesus does not allow him to be wrested from Jesus's grasp. However, a number of passages show that a person CAN stop following.

Can the conflict be reconciled? Not by recourse to outside references, not even if those outside references are merely the exercise of a bit of nous. Does the Bible itself resolve the conflict?

Josephus · Jan 15, 2002

since this is a topic regarding doctrine primarily between Christians only, I am moving this to The Workshop.

quickas · Jan 15, 2002

Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG

There's so much scriptural proof that this doctrine is wrong, it's best to put it in these separate pages.

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG proof from the Gospels

In the link above is Matthew 24:13 ; Luke 8:5-8,11-15 ; 12:45,46 ; 14:34,35 ; 15:13,21,24 ; 22:31,32 ; and John 15:1,2,6.
I get deep into the word with what it means, from some interpretations of Greek words,
to further prove the point that one can lose their salvation.

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG proof from Romans to 2 Thessalonians

There you will find Romans 11:17-22 ; 1 Cor. 9:27 ; 10:12 ; 15:1,2 ; Gal. 5:4,7 ; Phil. 2:12,13 ; Col. 1:22,23 ;
1 Thes. 3:5,8 ; and 2 Thes. 2:3.

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG proof from 1 Timothy to James

That's my longest "proof" page. It has 1 Tim. 1:5-7 ; 3:6,7 ; 4:1 ; 5:12,15 ; 6:10,20,21 ; 2 Tim. 2:17,18 ; 3:14,15 ; 4:3,4 ;
Hebrews 2:1-3 ; 3:12-14,18 ; 4:1,11-13 ; 6:4-6 ; 10:26,29,38 ; 12:15-17 ; and James 5:19,20

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG proof from 1 Peter to Revelation

In that page I have Scripture from the end of the bible with 1 Peter 1:9 ; 2 Peter 1:10 ; 2:15,16,20,21 ; 3:17,18 ;
1 John 2:24,25,28 ; Revelation 2:5,10,11 ; 3:1-5,16 ; and 22:19.

Corrections of the Misunderstandings of "OSAS" Scriptures

The "Corrections" page is slightly longer than any of my "proof" pages. Surely God does not contradict Himself; and clearly, none of these Scriptures mean we are "Once Saved, Always Saved." There I have John 3:36 ; Hebrews 13:4-6 ;
Romans 8:35-39 ; John 6:35-37 ; 10:27-30 ; 1 Cor. 3:13-15 ; Hebrews 7:25 ; 10:10,14 ; 1 Peter 1:5,9 ; 2 Tim. 2:10-13 ;
Eph. 2:8-10 ; 1:11-14 ; 2 Tim. 1:12 ; Matt. 28:20 ; Phil. 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:1,2 ; and 2 Cor. 5:5,10,11,17

Links to my other pages...

If you lost your salvation, or maybe you haven't even thought about it but are back into sin again, or perhaps you are here
without ever being saved, it would be wise to turn to the Lord. You'll see how by clicking on this 1st page
for my preaching of God's word. It will show you "The Way To Heaven."

"The Way To Heaven, according to the bible"

"My Favorite Gospel Verses"

"My Favorite Romans Verses"

"My Favorite Psalms"

"My Favorite Proverbs"

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Sincerely, Patrick Harris.

© 2001 pat4surf@yahoo.com

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LouisBooth · Jan 15, 2002

I kinda don't like it when people just list verses..let me go look them up..

"Matthew 24:13 "

I think this is addressing an ENTIRELY different issue. Just like the verses that say God is spirit, it is addressing the point of worship, not essence. This verse(s) are addressing endtimes, NOT salvation and shouldn't be taken as such. Its taking it out of context and useing verses that weren't ment to stand alone stand by themselves. You can't just yank verses out of the bible and slap a meaning on them. That's just plain wrong.

"Luke 8:5-8,11-15 "

Okay, here you miss the point all together. Its talking about true faith. The Rocky ground is someone without true faith, for true faith is from God and NEVER fails.

"12:45,46 "

Again, in this parable you miss the point. He is contrasting true faith against not true faith. You can also see the key in verse 48...those that have been given more to do are held accountable to more. It says nothing about salvation being taken away. Look at the context of the passage!!! Jesus just finished talking about worrying then about being commited, ie TRUE FAITH.

"14:34,35 "

These verses only prove my point. How do you make salt unsalty? answer: YOU CAN'T. The only way you can is to dillute it with SOMETHING ELSE. This passage is about dilluting the gospel as shown in the last statement.."He who has ears to hear, let him hear."He just finished talking about it in vsers 26..talking again about people that say they are christians but aren't. Big surprise he says something on not diluting the gospel.

"15:13,21,24 "

The only thing I can say here is that I really disagree with your interpretation of this verse. Did he ever STOP being his son..nope.

"John 15:1,2,6."

:lol: I can't believe you went to this. Again Jesus is here talking about true faith vs not true faith. It is summed up by (my words) true faith naturally produce works, (Christ's words) verse 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my father I have made known to you."

I could go on and on and show you how these verses don't prove anything you assurt they do. Have a good day

Just one question for you Is salvation God given (OSAS) or man earned (not OSAS)?

Thunderchild · Jan 16, 2002

Very good. I am fully aware that OSAS is incorrect. Nonetheless, the interpretation of one key passage to support OSAS is correct. Until the conflict is reconciled from within the Bible (reasoning from the scriptures is, after all, the approved fashion for establishing the difference between doctrine and precept of man) OSAS has not been demonstrated to be a precept of man.

LouisBooth · Jan 17, 2002

"OSAS has not been demonstrated to be a precept of man. "

Umm..nope, its a precept of God. If salvation is NOT God given then OSAS is not correct, If it is God given then OSAS is correct.

I think you need to read romans. I think you are confused as to what salvation really is. Once you are saved there isn't any going back, regardless.

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2002

Salvation is NOT "God-given". If it was, then "predestined-election" would be the way of salvation. But John records, "That whosoever BELIEVES, should not perish but have eternal life". Salvation is not God-given, it is "God-provided". And then, "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

Faith-unto-salvation is NOT from God's direction towards man---it is from man's direction towards God! "Faith comes from hearing"... (from HEARING the Word of God, not FROM GOD...)

And ROmans very much supports this, as I was just quoting from chapter 10...

LouisBooth · Jan 17, 2002

"Salvation is NOT "God-given". "

wow ben, lets look at what Paul says.."ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through fiath-AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...."

Paul sure does disagree with you.

You are saying that we work for our salvation. That is wrong and not what the bible says. Man has NO part in salvation. we cannot save ourselves. PERIOD. Romans doesn't support your view at all!! Just look at chapter 3. And if that isn't enough look at chapter 9.

Ben johnson · Jan 19, 2002

wow ben, lets look at what Paul says.."ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...."

Paul sure does disagree with you.

Hi, Louis. It says, "THAT is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." What is "THAT"? The only possible understanding, is "THAT" is "GRACE". Paul very much agrees with me, when he writes things like, "Faith (unto salvation) comes from hearing (the Word of God)". Faith is not a "unilateral-gift-from-God", faith-to-salvation comes from hearing. From our heart's conviction.

"For by grace have you been saved through faith". The gift is offered to all (Rom5:1

, those who RECEIVE it, become saved (Jn1:12). They all understood that it is our own faith that saves us, which is why Peter said, (1:1:9) "receiving as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls".

You are saying that we work for our salvation. That is wrong and not what the bible says. Man has NO part in salvation. we cannot save ourselves. PERIOD. Romans doesn't support your view at all!! Just look at chapter 3. And if that isn't enough look at chapter 9.

Romans 3 says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Romans 1 says that God has revealed Himself in enough measure, so that EVERYONE can accept or reject Him. They are without excuse. As for the Rom9 passage, I have dealt with that in the book I'm writing, I'll just cut-and-paste it for you...

(forgive the length...)

To understand the Romans 9 passage, let us first come to understanding of the concept of "total depravity". One of the primary posits of "Irresistible Grace" is that man is completely, totally, depraved; so much so, that he cannot ever even consider the possibility of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. But does Scripture support that view? Consider Romans 1:18ff, "For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. For even though THEY KNEW GOD, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... and because they did not acknowledge God any longer, God GAVE THEM OVER to a depraved mind".

In Romans 1 it says very clearly and undeniably that God is revealed to all men. It is then up to each to accept Him or reject Him. Clearly, although "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are NONE righteous" (Romans 3), God reveals Himself to each person, in enough measure that the person HAS the ability to choose. Thus the "They are without excuse". It also undeniably says that God, because of their conscious rejection of Him and embracement of "the lie", gives them over to a depraved mind. Does this mean that their hardened hearts are their own fault? Consider Hebrews 3:13, "Lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". The Greek for "hardened" here is "skleruno", which means "made stubborn or obstinate". The same word as used in Romans 9:18; which, apparently indicates that God does the "hardening and softening", but in context with Romans 1, we gain the deeper understanding that the hardening is a result of their conscious choice (their heart darkened because they chose "the lie"), and the "God hardens whom He desires" is understood to mean that He gives over to a base and depraved mind those who reject Him.

Technically, in Exodus 10:1 it reads "made heavy", and verses 10:20, 27, 11:10 and 14:8 mean "made strong". Was Pharaoh a helpless pawn in the machinations of an absolutely-controlling-God? Or was his "hardening" because of his choice to "embrace the lie"? It is theologically sound to understand the latter. God "hardens" people in the sense that He honors their choice to reject Him and gives them over to a base and depraved mind.

Now, if God does not predestine, then what of the passage in Romans 9 that speaks of "pottery"? It clearly says that some are created "for honor", and some "for common". Let us assume that they are on the potter's wheel because of their choice to submit to Him---they are already saved (as we have already established in this discourse). 1Corinthians 12:4ff tells us that God uses each of us as He chooses, different parts of the body, for the common good, as He chooses. Some for honor, some for common. Perfect harmony, the clay submits to the potter to use as He wills.

Verse Romans 9:23, the "endured with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"? What caused them to BE "vessels of wrath", and to BE "prepared for destruction"? Consider the parable of Matthew 13:24ff; the landowner said "Allow the tares (weeds, grass) to grow with the wheat, but in the harvest the wheat will be gathered and the weeds burned." Thus the weeds were "endured with patience", PERFECTLY in harmony with 2Peter3:9! The un-submitted vessels-of-clay, He endures for now, but their rebellious state assures their future destruction (Matt13:30,41-42, 25:32,41; Rom2:5). Is there anything in this passage that indicates God overrides our will to salvation? No. Is there anything in this passage that indicates God honors free will? Consider 9:32 "They did not achieve righteousness, because they pursued it by works rather than faith". Clearly they made the wrong choice. Verse 33 demonstrates that He was a stumbling stone because they did not believe. Continuing in chapter 10, "They have (wrong) zeal for God; not knowing about God's righteousness, seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Belief is a choice, very clearly written in this passage. It is not predestined.

Thunderchild · Jan 19, 2002

This post is a complete botch. Don't read it unless you feel like seeing how easily I can make an idiot of myself.

lets look at what Paul says.."ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through fiath-AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD...." Righto, let's do just that. We'll be best advised to use the proper rules of grammar in doing so.

Note the positions of the commas - they denote that ", through faith, and this not from yourselves," is an aside, or exposition of the main point, being:. "By grace you have been saved, it is the gift of God." Oh DEAR ... not saved by faith at all. Well, ALMOST not by faith - it does say that faith is the means by which grace has been extended.

Indeed Grace (Greek, "charis" = charity - one of the forms of love) IS the gift of God.

As to " and this not of yourselves" Here, "this" is not used as a definite article but as a pronoun - referring back to faith: that is, "this faith" . So Faith is not inherent to the person. There are two things which are gifts of God - grace and faith.

So the verse properly interpreted means: You have been saved by grace. Grace is a gift of God, and it is extended to you by means of faith. Faith does not arise naturally within a person: it too, is a gift of God.

Hmmm.... Better check the Greek, A problem arises with "is" the gift.... for this to be correct, the word should be "are" - and the Greek shows that "it is" has been added by the translators.

OOOPS!!!!!! You have been saved by grace is NOT the correct phrase. By grace you have been saved....hmmm. "Grace" is not the subject, but the object. ergo Grace is not the gift of God, Salvation (the subject) is the gift of God. (That makes more sense, actually).

You have been saved by grace (charity, remember). Salvation is the gift of God, made available through faith. Faith does not come from you: it too is the gift of God. - This verse does not say we are saved by faith.

Thunderchild · Jan 19, 2002

OK - Let's have a look at Ephesians 2:8 again. This time without the extraneous comma and thinking of "been saved" as "salvation" rather than as the verb it is - and with a complete rather than cursory examination of the Greek.

 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God.

For by grace you are saved - Grace saves you (hmmm.....why is "gar" in front of "by grace" instead of behind where it belongs?)
you are saved through faith - hmmm.....grace is what, faith is how
"through faith, and this not of yourselves" - Faith does not come from within the person, it is the gift of God.
On to verse 9
It is the gift of God; not of works.- Faith is the gift of God, it is not the result of works.
not of works that noone should boast - fair enough, you can't boast about something you didn't achieve by yourself.
for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto (unto??? epi translates as upon) good works, which God pre-ordained that we should walk in them (autois normally would translate as him) Something is not quite right here.
But this much is certain - "By grace you are saved" - this verse does NOT say "by faith you are saved." The verse can not even begin to look as though it is saying "you are saved by faith."

Ben johnson · Jan 19, 2002

The subject of Eph2:8ff, is "God's gift of grace". Three phrases follo:
<subject> dia pistis, prepositional phrase, THROUGH FAITH
<subject> not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
<subject> not as a result of works, lest anyone boast.

Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was complete and sufficient. We are saved by His sacrifice alone. Unearned, undeserved, unmerritted. A pure gift of love, given without cost. Pure grace.

But do some people not receieve it? Yes. For those who do not receive it, are they saved? No. Is that God's faut? No. For those who DO recieve the gift, they (after they die) enter into eternal life. Did God choose that, or did they decide to believe? They decided.

If "faith-unto-salvation" was a gift from God, unilaterally, then there is no responsibility for achieving Heaven, or Hell. And it would flat contradict the verse I gave earlier, "Faith comes from HEARING". Rom10:17.

Faith comes from HEARING.

Salvation is a gift, available to all. But only those who hear and come under conviction, and receive the gift of salvation, become saved.

In Eph2:8ff, there is one subject for all three phrases. "God's free gift of grace". This conveys in English, it conveys in Greek.

Faith-unto-salvation is not a "gift from God". Jesus-on-the-Cross is the gift, and "by the outcome of YOUR faith is you obtain the salvation of your souls". Or do you have another explanation for 1Pet1:9?

They all understood that man was responsible to accept Jesus' gift-of-salvation, His LORDSHIP, or not.

They all (most) understood that salvation was rejectable. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, Jude, John. Wanna see that part of my argument?

(I love that verse in Jude. The book is so short, but with so much wisdom. "KEEP yourselves in the love of God, harmonizes beautifully with all the rest of Scripture, that "salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus". Identically, "born again", identically "abiding in Him". KEEP YOURSELVES IN THE LOVE OF GOD! ABIDE IN HIM! "If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a dried branch and cast into the fire!" Jn15)

BTW, Jd24 harmonizes with 1Cor10:13---He is able, but does He do it without your permission? No!

LouisBooth · Jan 19, 2002

*sigh* thunder, you do a great job at rationalizing lies..

What you finally said "The verse can not even begin to look as though it is saying "you are saved by faith." "

What the verse plainly says..

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; (it is) the gift of God. "

Wow, your statement it THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what the verse says. :lol: Go ahead and keep rationalizing yourself and maybe you'll convert to islam.

Thunderchild · Jan 19, 2002

If "by grace you are saved" means "by faith you are saved", the author was very careless in his choice of wording, LouisBooth.

Thunderchild · Jan 19, 2002

Hmmm. I'll pop across to that other section on Bible translation with what I am thinking about the anomalies in Ephesians 2:8 - Here it would be off topic.

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