How Can God Have "Faith" If He is in the "Eternal Now"

victoryword · Dec 12, 2005

Here is a puzzle for you my fellow Word-Faithers. How is it that we constantly look at the literal interpretation of Mark 11:22 (have the faith of God or the God-Kind of faith) and conclude that this is referring to "the same kind of faith that God had when He created the world" but then claim along with other Evangelicals that God resides in some "eternal now" and can see the future, past and present with just one shot.

Does a divine being who can see all of the past, present, and future need faith? Why would He need faith if He never experiences any succession of moments but all of history is in His view?

Many of you already know that I reject the "eternal now" premise (can't find one shred of it in Scripture) but I am wondering why many of you do, and how do you reconcile this belief with the belief that God has and exercises faith.

ph3nom3nalwoman · Dec 12, 2005

Would it make a difference if you viewed it this way.... God IS FAITH, He does not HAVE it. Just like WE HAVE Love, but GOD IS LOVE!
:amen:

victoryword said:
Here is a puzzle for you my fellow Word-Faithers. How is it that we constantly look at the literal interpretation of Mark 11:22 (have the faith of God or the God-Kind of faith) and conclude that this is referring to "the same kind of faith that God had when He created the world" but then claim along with other Evangelicals that God resides in some "eternal now" and can see the future, past and present with just one shot.

Does a divine being who can see all of the past, present, and future need faith? Why would He need faith if He never experiences any succession of moments but all of history is in His view?

Many of you already know that I reject the "eternal now" premise (can't find one shred of it in Scripture) but I am wondering why many of you do, and how do you reconcile this belief with the belief that God has and exercises faith.

PastorJoey · Dec 12, 2005

victoryword said:
Here is a puzzle for you my fellow Word-Faithers. How is it that we constantly look at the literal interpretation of Mark 11:22 (have the faith of God or the God-Kind of faith) and conclude that this is referring to "the same kind of faith that God had when He created the world" but then claim along with other Evangelicals that God resides in some "eternal now" and can see the future, past and present with just one shot.

Does a divine being who can see all of the past, present, and future need faith? Why would He need faith if He never experiences any succession of moments but all of history is in His view?

Many of you already know that I reject the "eternal now" premise (can't find one shred of it in Scripture) but I am wondering why many of you do, and how do you reconcile this belief with the belief that God has and exercises faith.

I'm not sure what the eternal now teaching is, but as far as faith goes, I believe that God believes that what He says will come to pass. He has faith in is own words just as you and I should have faith in the statements we make.
He has faith (assurance) in His own words because He is confident in His own power to back them up.

We exercise faith in Gods word. God exercises faith in His own word.
I think if we understood faith simply to mean assurance, believe or trust, the conflict about God having faith would be solved. If I said "God has trust" or "God believes" it wouldnt raise an eyebrow. But If I said "God has faith", it would gets people all kinds of mad.

God needs to have faith in the sense that you and I need to believe or have assurance that we could do what we say. If God didnt have faith in His own words we'd be in a mess.
Pastor J

KleinerApfel · Dec 12, 2005

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Revelation 22:13

God is the begining and end, presumably He also has the in-between covered. Would that mean He knows all that is contained within?

Just a thought - I can't debate here anyway!

God bless, love Sue

godson777 · Dec 12, 2005

Victoryword, if you reject the eternal now teaching, then what do you believe?

Preacherchick99 · Dec 12, 2005

@ Victoryword:

Why do you make so many debate threads anywayz? Are you trying to get us all to argue so you can sit back and say "lol--I created this thread! Look at my masterpiece!"

You have to remember, there are younger WOFer's in here like me--And all you'll do is confuse us who aren't as mature in the Word as you are. If you want to be responsible for that.....High five--But if not, make some changes. And that goes for all of you who are mature in your faith.

Why do you think I never really go into debate threads? Because I don't want to confuse myself on something that I'm not too knowledgable on yet.

We don't need a spirit of confusion in here--We need to be unified so we can rise up against things that may try to harm us so we can give an encouraging word and not be like, "Well I don't exactly believe in that, but I'll pray for you anywayz!"

As for this thread:

Yes God is in the now, because faith is NOW.

I got those words in the Spirit one time as I was writing a song in the presence of God:

Faith is now,
That's what it's all about.
God said it,
I believe it,
So now I'm using my faith to recieve it!

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17) We all know that by now--We know that when we dive into the Word and grow from hearing what our Pastor preaches--We develop our faith.

Yes God knows everything, he always has and always will--But we don't. And it isn't our job to know everything in our future unless God tells us in His ultimate wisdom. We have free will--The free will of believing in God and deciding not to believe in Him. Obviously we all choose to believe--And for that we are blessed. Because we are holding onto the promise that God has made for us through Jesus Christ dying on the cross.

We just need to stop believing and start recieving since faith is now and we have a God of now.

Hmmm...I wonder why I typed all of that, lolz

PastorJoey · Dec 12, 2005

AAAh! VW,

I fell right into your trap! Led right into an endless debate. :doh:

Pastor J

PastorJoey · Dec 12, 2005

Preacherchick99 said:
@ Victoryword:

Why do you make so many debate threads anywayz? Are you trying to get us all to argue so you can sit back and say "lol--I created this thread! Look at my masterpiece!"

I dont think VW intends on causing confusion or starting any "heated" debates. Hes just bouncing things off fellow WoFers to see their points of view. I'm sure he'll answer your post, but since hes not on line I think I can express his intentions fairly.
I'm interested in knowing his take on "eternity now" myself. This can all be done in a friendly discussion.
At times we all need to have our theology questioned. It causes us to sharpen our beliefs or if necessary change our beliefs.
The Word of God will do one of three things in a persons life:
1. The Word will establish beliefs
2. The Word will strengthen present beliefs
3. The Word will change beliefs
When we study the word or are in church, we should ask God to do all 3 in us.
If you have any questions, I'd be glad to try and help,
Pastor J :wave:

victoryword · Dec 12, 2005

PastorJ speaks my heart exactly. I am not trying to start fights. I want Word-Faithers to think. Furthermore, many folks think that the Word-Faith forum is boring because we supposeldy all agree on everything. I believe sometimes we Word-Faithers are all caught up in our common beliefs that we ignore certain doctrines that could actually conflict with out beliefs.

Furthermore, I don't have time to start fights just to sit back and laugh at them. I have gone long periods of time without posting here due to business and basically a lack of interest because this forum can be downright dull. However, I figure that if I do want to see something going on on this forum perhaps I can help spark some of it with some thoughts.

I hope that helps anyone who is wondering about my motives

victoryword · Dec 12, 2005

godson777 said:
Victoryword, if you reject the eternal now teaching, then what do you believe?

I believe that God experiences history with us. I do not believe that the future even exists. God cannot know something that is not in existence. I have plenty of Scripture to prove this point and any passage that anyone can even remotely rip from scripture that they think might make a case for the "Eternal Now" can be easily refuted.

However, my main point/question which no one has really answered yet is this:

1. Does God Himself exercise faith as so many WoF people claim?

2. If the answer to number 1 is "yes" then how can one reconcile this belief with the belief that God is residing in an eternal now, sees the past, present, and future in fell swoop, but still have faith? Faith is believing for something to happen that has not yet happened, or at least believing something is done, though you have not yet seen it done. So how is it that God can exercise faith is one holds to an "eternal now" doctrine that includes a future that already exists and exhaustive foreknowledge of it?

victoryword · Dec 12, 2005

PastorJ said:
I'm not sure what the eternal now teaching is,

Since I agree with your post (because I believe that God exercises faith), I just wanted to answer your question.

The "eternal now" is a commonly held belief in the church that God never experiences history with us but sees the past, present, and future simultaneously, which is why He supposedly knows all of the future.

I have come to reject this doctrine over the past several years based on SCRIPTURE and the fact that it simply does not make any sense, especially when it comes to faith, prayer, and exercising our authority.

PastorJoey · Dec 13, 2005

victoryword said:
Since I agree with your post (because I believe that God exercises faith), I just wanted to answer your question.

The "eternal now" is a commonly held belief in the church that God never experiences history with us but sees the past, present, and future simultaneously, which is why He supposedly knows all of the future.

I have come to reject this doctrine over the past several years based on SCRIPTURE and the fact that it simply does not make any sense, especially when it comes to faith, prayer, and exercising our authority.

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV
(9) Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
(10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 48:3-6 KJV
(3) I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did [them] suddenly, and they came to pass.
(4) Because I knew that thou [art] obstinate, and thy neck [is] an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
(5) I have even from the beginning declared [it] to thee; before it came to pass I shewed [it] thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
(6) Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare [it]? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

Isaiah 64:4 KJV
(4) For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Isaiah 41:21-23 KJV
(21) Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong [reasons], saith the King of Jacob.(22) Let them bring [them] forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they [be], that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.(23) Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.

John 16:13 KJV

(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

One way the Holy Spirit shows us things to come is thru the gift of the word of wisdom which is a fragment of Gods wisdom concerning the future. We dont need to know everything about the future so God only gives us a "word of His wisdom". He tells us only what we need to know about it pertaining to our situation.
I do believe that God knows every event that will occur and every decision that people will make. However, I do not believe that God allows this foreknowledge to dictate His decisions. He has a plan and a purpose that He desires to see take place on Earth and nothing, even foreknowledge of rejection will keep Him from acting out of His heart.
example: God knew that no one but Noah and his family would enter the ark, but He did not allow this foreknowledge to get in the way. He still had Noah preach repentance for 100 years and build an ark large enough to carry every one who would enter.
love acts, never reacts.

May I ask, does this belief of yours stem from your time spent debating with calvinists? Does this belief against "eternity now" in any way enforce your stance against calvinism? Just curious.
Pastor J

victoryword · Dec 13, 2005

The belief came from studying the Bible, including most of the passages that you cite. You take notice that every last one of them is declaring what God WILL DO but not one of them claims that He knows the future exhaustively nor do they teach that He resides in an eternal now. God is Almighty and can certainly bring about His plans.

I can show a number of passages where God expresses surprise, disappointment, regret, joy, anger, etc. I can show passages where God says He did not know some things and where He says that certain things never even entered His mind. I won't go there right now.

For the most part, I am NOT wanting to argue against foreknowledge or the "eternal now". I am arguing against the inconsistency of holding both the position that God resides in the eternal now and yet He exercises faith. We can't have BOTH. We have to rid ourselves of one or the other.

LittleRocketBoy · Dec 13, 2005

I read somewhere the idea that "time" and history actually exist outside of eternity, like a scroll. God can open it and look at any moment in time He desires. I am not sure how that would diseffect faith as a law of creation. Faith is what holds the ages (worlds) together.

Then there is the "hyper faith" concept that everything is being held together by the words spoken before material universe was created. IOWs, what appears to be "prophecy" is actually a creative statement. The word is not predicting the future... it is creating it.

God does not know He has to believe for it to be... it just is.

victoryword · Dec 13, 2005

LittleRocketBoy said:
I read somewhere the idea that "time" and history actually exist outside of eternity, like a scroll. God can open it and look at any moment in time He desires. I am not sure how that would diseffect faith as a law of creation. Faith is what holds the ages (worlds) together.

If I understand faith, then it is believing in something that, for all intents and purposes has not happened. It is something other than what can be seen (Heb. 11:1; 2 Cor. 5:7; Mark 11:24). If I know the future in exact detail or if I am able to peer into the future to see exactly what is going to happen then I have no need to exercise faith. If the future exists then it cannot be changed because it is. No need for faith for something that already is.

Therefore, if God is able to peer into the future then there is no need for Him to exercise faith. That is a consistent belief and most Arminians and Calvinists are consistent. It is Word-Faithers that I find inconsistent because they want to hold on to both premises. They want god to know the future in exact detail, but they say that He exercises faith. It simply cannot be both. To hold to both is illogical.

LittleRocketBoy said:
Then there is the "hyper faith" concept that everything is being held together by the words spoken before material universe was created.

I have never heard it taught to that extreme. It sounds more like the teaching of "Process Theology" in which they believe that once God created the world, He just stepped back and was no longer involved in it. But then, many these folks also question God's power and other areas of Scripture.

Nonetheless, the Bible does teach that God upholds all things by the Word of His power:

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb. 1:2, 3)

LittleRocketBoy said:
IOWs, what appears to be "prophecy" is actually a creative statement. The word is not predicting the future... it is creating it.

I pretty much hold to this view but not so much in the definition. I believe that "prophecy" is God creating the future. It is the foretelling of His plans and what He intends to dop. I do not believe that God peers into the future to tell us what is going to happen. I believe that God tells us what is going to happen and then He brings it about. Let us look at one of the prooftexts that PastorJ used a moment ago (good work PastorJ though I know you disagree with me, yet at least you are doing your homework):

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa. 46:9, 10)

Notice that God does not say that He "sees" the end from the beginning, but that He DECLARES it - He speaks it!! Then He says that He will do that thing that pleases Him, that which He is declaring. As a matter of fact, all of PastorJ's quotes and nearly every other prophetic utterance can be seen in this manner.

LittleRocketBoy said:
God does not know He has to believe for it to be... it just is.

I believe that since the future does not exist then it is not, except that which God says will happen because there is no one who can stop Him from bringing to pass what he declares. I believe that God knows all things that are in existence, but since a blue freckled boogly wop does not exist, God does not know anything about it.

However, if I accepted the belief that God knows all of the future in exact detail then I would have to drop the belief that He exercises faith because the two are incompatible.

PastorJoey · Dec 13, 2005

victoryword said:
The belief came from studying the Bible, including most of the passages that you cite. You take notice that every last one of them is declaring what God WILL DO but not one of them claims that He knows the future exhaustively nor do they teach that He resides in an eternal now. God is Almighty and can certainly bring about His plans.

I can show a number of passages where God expresses surprise, disappointment, regret, joy, anger, etc. I can show passages where God says He did not know some things and where He says that certain things never even entered His mind. I won't go there right now.

For the most part, I am NOT wanting to argue against foreknowledge or the "eternal now". I am arguing against the inconsistency of holding both the position that God resides in the eternal now and yet He exercises faith. We can't have BOTH. We have to rid ourselves of one or the other.

God being who He is, I personally dont think that there is anything that could be held from His knowledge should He desire to know it. There may be certain things as you have pointed out that He chooses not to look into.

I personally dont feel that I must rid myself of one or the other, God exercising faith or eternity now. But if you are right and I must choose, I would drop my belief that God Has faith like a hot potatoe in comparison to questioning Gods ability to look into anything He so desires.

Revelation 13:8 KJV
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:18-20 KJV
(18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God seemed to know that man would need a redeemer. Did God only know about this because it was part of His plan for man to sin? Or could He actually peir into the things which He desires?

You say that the future does not even exist and has not happened yet. I agree. But if for no other reason, could not God as an 'expert chess player' predict the moves that others would make and respond accordingly, even thousands of years in advance?

As far as faith goes, God simply had confidence in His own ability to Bring His words to pass. I understand where your coming from though that 'if He saw it, it could not be classified as faith'.

With my understanding, creation would be one of those instances in which God chose not to see the outcome except through the eye of faith & vision.
Pastor J

PastorJoey · Dec 13, 2005

victoryword said:
I do not believe that the future even exists. .....I have plenty of Scripture to prove this point and any passage that anyone can even remotely rip from scripture that they think might make a case for the "Eternal Now" can be easily refuted......So how is it that God can exercise faith is one holds to an "eternal now" doctrine that includes a future that already exists and exhaustive foreknowledge of it?

I'm not sure if I believe that the future already exists (as a scroll that is being rolled out). This teaching would seem to me to be like candy to a calvinist.

However, this does not mean that God cannot know something by His wisdom. And its by the gift of the word of wisdom that He gives us a fragment of His wisdom concerning the future.

PastorJ

victoryword · Dec 13, 2005

PastorJ

I will get to your points in a moment. But I do believe that if you must hold on to the "Eternal Now" concept then you are going to have to drop the "God has faith" concept like a hot potato, simply because the two are inconsistent. That's why Arminians and Calvinists dispute with Faith Teachers on the belief that God exercises faith. He doesn't need any if He knows the whole future and every single thing that is going to happen

Anyway, I know most of our faith folks here have heard of Finis Dake and some have even read his books and own a copy of his reference Bible. In one of books, "God's Plan For Man," Dake writes this about foreknowledge:

XVI. FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:28-30)

The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of God or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. If we are to take the Bible for what it says about God we will have to recognize that God gets to know certain things concerning free moral agents just as they get to know some things about each other. This is plainly stated in Gen. 3:8; 6:6,7; 11:5-8; 18:18-21; 22:12; Ex. 2:24, 25; Psalm 1:6; Jer. 17:10. God knows His plan from the beginning to the end, and certain passages used to teach foreknowledge from all eternity in connection with detailed events in the lives of free wills really refer to His general plan only, not to free moral acts of those particular men, as we have seen under election above (Isa. 42:9; 45:11; 46:9; 48:6; Dan. 2:28, 29; Acts 15:18; Matt. 13:35; 24:36; Rev. 21-22; etc.).

Just wanted to show you his thoughts before I go on.

victoryword · Dec 13, 2005

PastorJ said:
I'm not sure if I believe that the future already exists (as a scroll that is being rolled out). This teaching would seem to me to be like candy to a calvinist.

However, this does not mean that God cannot know something by His wisdom. And its by the gift of the word of wisdom that He gives us a fragment of His wisdom concerning the future.

PastorJ

I will address your other post later, but I just wanted you to know that this is pretty much in line with what I believe. God is an omni-wise, omni-intelligent, and omni-resourceful person (I can just hear LRB now ready to jump on me for creating new "omni-factors"

)

God knows us so well that He can say with perfect accuracy what we will do if we are in certain situations. Furthermore, God is prepared for any contingiency and is NEVER caught off guard.

However, we can disappoint Him or bring Him joy. God is an emotional being who experiences joy, pleasure, delight, disappointment, anger and other things. When the doctrine of the "eternal now" was first invented by some of the church fathers (culiminating with St. Augustine), they also included with this doctrine the doctrine of IMPASSIBILITY, which is the belief that God has no passions nor experiences any emotions. All references to God having emotions in Scripture were claimed to be anthropomorphic language. This made God more presentable to the Greeks.

Most Evangelicals Christians today reject the doctrine of impassibility (though most Calvinists hang on to it), but they keep all of the other stuff.

PastorJoey · Dec 13, 2005

victoryword said:
PastorJ

I will get to your points in a moment. But I do believe that if you must hold on to the "Eternal Now" concept then you are going to have to drop the "God has faith" concept like a hot potato, simply because the two are inconsistent. That's why Arminians and Calvinists dispute with Faith Teachers on the belief that God exercises faith. He doesn't need any if He knows the whole future and every single thing that is going to happen

Anyway, I know most of our faith folks here have heard of Finis Dake and some have even read his books and own a copy of his reference Bible. In one of books, "God's Plan For Man," Dake writes this about foreknowledge:

XVI. FOREKNOWLEDGE (Rom. 8:28-30)

The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of God or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. If we are to take the Bible for what it says about God we will have to recognize that God gets to know certain things concerning free moral agents just as they get to know some things about each other. This is plainly stated in Gen. 3:8; 6:6,7; 11:5-8; 18:18-21; 22:12; Ex. 2:24, 25; Psalm 1:6; Jer. 17:10. God knows His plan from the beginning to the end, and certain passages used to teach foreknowledge from all eternity in connection with detailed events in the lives of free wills really refer to His general plan only, not to free moral acts of those particular men, as we have seen under election above (Isa. 42:9; 45:11; 46:9; 48:6; Dan. 2:28, 29; Acts 15:18; Matt. 13:35; 24:36; Rev. 21-22; etc.).

Just wanted to show you his thoughts before I go on.

I was already checking out what "dakes take" was on this and havent come up with much . Thanks for the quote.

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