What you will do and feel if there's no rapture ?

FreeinChrist said:

Well, I wasn't pretrib and premil for many years - but a study of scripture showed me my error.

So, as you basically avoided my question - I will assume that you are a preterist like Justme, who doesn't believe in a future physical Second Coming of Christ to the earth.

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Hi Freeinchrist,

I believe in a future appearance of Christ, according to the Scriptures...

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious APPEARING of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Lady Goodnews

Just one more conformation that Jesus knew exactly what He was talking about, as well as all the other writers who make it abvious that the evil will be taken out not the righteous. And the fact that The Holy Spirit wrote it just exactly the way it will happen. And that the psalmist in 91 was inspred by The Holy Spirit to encourage us.

TasManOfGod said:

Is it not plain that it is the removal of the believer that causes tribulation!!!

Tas

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It's the "Tribulation of the Saints", not Satan, not those left behind nor of the Jews.

Palatka44 said:

It's the "Tribulation of the Saints", not Satan, not those left behind nor of the Jews.

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The fact that there will be those who are redeemed during tribulation does not negate a prior gathering of the saints.

Fundamentally we have a doctrinal differing issue here and not one of semantics

blessing
Tas

Something I find a little disturbing are a few posts in which people would seem to take a little joy in "being right" if there were no pre-trib rapture. That's just a little odd to me - hell would be breaking out, and some people would be going around saying "Na na na boo boo, I was right!"??

Here are the main verses I use to defend pre-trib rapture:

2 Thess 2:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

To me, these verses can't mean anything but pre-trib rapture..

There are 2 different events being talked about here. Verse 1-4 tells us that the Lord's second coming cannot happen until after the lawless one is revealed, then verses 6 through 8 tell us that the lawless one will not be revealed until "he that restrains is taken away". So, who is he that restrains? Who else can it be but one of the following 2:

(1)The Church (this means a pre-trib rapture)
(2)The Holy Spirit (pre-trib rapture, also, because if the Holy Spirit were to leave us, we would drop dead-we cannot live without the Holy Spirit. The old nature was crucified with Christ and replaced with a new nature, the nature of Christ. We are "partakers of the divine nature". If the Holy Spirit left, our flesh would die. "For in Him we live and breathe and have our being."---Acts 17:28

So here's the sequence of events I get from those verses in 2 Thess:

Church taken away
Lawless One revealed and commits acts of horror
Christ returns triumphantly (second coming)

FreeinChrist said:

Do you believe in a future PHYSICAL descent of Christ to the earth?

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I believe Jesus will come in the same manner as He left...

Acts 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in "like manner" as ye have seen Him go into heaven.

Compare...

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced Him, and ALL knidreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A'men.

Lady Goodnews

FreeinChrist said:

Let me state it clearer.

Are you a partial preterist?

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I am A BELIEVER in Jesus Christ, and ALL Scripturally correct doctrine!

Lady Goodnews

Hi Free,

It almost looks like you are looking for material to put in a report.

Justme

Hi Free,

Have you ran across full preterists that believe there will be a raprure..I mean the out of the car, clog the freeway kind of rapture?

Justme

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #95 in this thread:

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". . . ALL MEN are 'destroyed' . . . "

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Just as the "all men" in Revelation 19:18 doesn't require that all believing men will be eaten by the birds, so it doesn't require that all unbelieving men will be eaten by the birds. Revelation 19:18 refers only to all the unbelieving men gathered in the armies that are slain in Revelation 19:19-21. It doesn't refer to every last unbeliever on the earth, for some unbelievers who aren't in the armies will be "left" alive (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

From post #95 in this thread:

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". . . the dispensationalist teach will reign with Christ in the 'millennium kingdom' . . . "

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I'm not a dispensationalist, if by that term you mean those who say that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive. But I am a premillennialist. The post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium. The millennium of Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

From post #106 in this thread:

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". . . The fact that there will be those who are redeemed during tribulation does not negate a prior gathering of the saints . . . "

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No scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation.

From post #107 in this thread:

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". . . who is he that restrains? Who else can it be but one of the following 2:

(1)The Church . . .

(2)The Holy Spirit . . . "

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The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit or the church because believers will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no believers are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

From post #115 in this thread:

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". . . There will be a rapture . . . "

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Amen, but not until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

It does not matter whether Christ comes pre, mid, or post because his true servants will follow him to the end. It is plain and simple. Christ only comes to take those who are following him, so all I can say is that we should stop caring about tommorrow and live for today because it might be you last.

Sirunai said:

It does not matter whether Christ comes pre, mid, or post because his true servants will follow him to the end. It is plain and simple. Christ only comes to take those who are following him, so all I can say is that we should stop caring about tommorrow and live for today because it might be you last.

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If there is no rapture that happens the way most expect it to happen it shouldn't matter, because when we first believed we were translated into the Kingdom of light and Jesus is and has been with us in the Spirit since that time.

Why would a physical meeting with Him make any difference anyway. Would it be so we can really believe as if we wouldn't if He doesn't return physically. I hope not, that would be the Thomas kind of faith.

When a thief comes in the night He usually does so by not being noticed except for the aftermath. Then you know he came by the evidence of what happened just like what happened in 70 Ad when Jerusalem was destroyed as Jesus said it would in Luke 21:20-24

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #117 in this thread:

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". . . It does not matter whether Christ comes pre, mid, or post . . . "

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But it might matter what we believe about that. The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

From post #117 in this thread:

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". . . his true servants will follow him to the end . . . "

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Knowing beforehand what we must face might help someone who is lukewarm to become a true servant, just as knowing beforehand that a big storm is coming might help someone to build their house on the rock instead of the sand (Mathew 7:24-27).

From post #117 in this thread:

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". . . we should stop caring about tommorrow . . . "

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We certainly shouldn't be anxious about the future, but the scriptures do include a great deal of eschatology, and we are to take heed to it so that we might know beforehand everything that we will have to face (Mark 13:23; Revelation 1:1). The Apostle Paul was very concerned when a church was receiving false eschatological teachings as it was causing many in that church to be shaken in mind and troubled (2 Thessalonians 2:2).

From post #118 in this thread:

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". . . When a thief comes in the night He usually does so by not being noticed except for the aftermath . . . "

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The idea of Jesus coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2) in no way means that He will come secretly, but that He will come unexpectedly and bring great suffering upon us if we aren't spiritually awake (Matthew 24:50-51). Anyone who has been in a carjacking at night or has been tied up in their house at night while it was robbed knows that a thief doesn't have to operate secretly at night, but a thief is always unexpected by those whom they bring suffering upon, for if the thief had been expected at a certain time measures would have been taken by their victims to avoid them or keep them away (Matthew 24:43).

Jesus' coming will in no way be secret, for Jesus will descend from heaven just as visibly and physically as He ascended (Acts 1:11). He will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30), so that every eye shall see Him (Revelation 1:7).

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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

If there's no rapture, i won't give a reaction.
However if there is one, i'll be amazed, because the All powerful God i believe in is not an escapist, and the rapture is a very flimsy doctrine that has been sensationalised by the escapists among us (not intentionally i hope)

postrib said:

The restrainer who is removed before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the Holy Spirit or the church because believers will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), no believers are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

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Try as I might, I couldn't find anything about "antichrist" in any of the passages above that you attribute to "antichrist".

Care to expound on why you believe Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13, and 2 Thess 2:1-8 speak of someone or something that is to be correctly, biblically identified as "antichrist"?

Thanks

Nigmeister said:

If there's no rapture, i won't give a reaction.
However if there is one, i'll be amazed, because the All powerful God i believe in is not an escapist, and the rapture is a very flimsy doctrine that has been sensationalised by the escapists among us (not intentionally i hope)

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Christians are in this world to carry on the victory of the Cross and to share that victory with Jesus Christ. Resurrection has always been considered eminent. If this was not so Jesus would have taught otherwise. It is not escapism and certainly will not be for those whom Jesus chooses to return with Him in the midst of great calamity stirred up by Satan himself. I would remind you that you are in the training ground for that now so even those who are waiting for the "rapture" should be well prepared for what is to come.

blessing
Tas