How I came to embrace Preterism.

Didaskomenos · Jun 6, 2002

Thanks Davo, that adds a new dimension to my understanding of preterist theology. I can't believe how articulate you all are

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 6, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Manifestation,
I understand the argument, and appreciate it. But your statement was that only Hebrews 9:28 said anything that could be interpreted as a prediction of a second advent. I merely pointed out that another verse could be just as likely construed as the Hebrews verse.

I got you brother. But my point is that Hebrews 9:28 is the only place in the New Testament that mentions the word "second" as in second coming.

I say this because the biblical Jews the Jew of Jesus' day, never had a concept of a "second coming."

They say one short fulfillment period with two phases to it. A suffering saving humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase that would all take place in one generation (Matthw 24:34).

This is the way the Jews have always viewed it and it is seen all throughtout the Bible. This is one of the many areas that the church has failed to see. They did not conceive of two differnt advents separated by a long indefinite time period as seen in the Old Testanent. The understood only one event with two phases.

Didaskomenos · Jun 6, 2002

Oh, okay. I got you brother

Good point, btw.

parousia70 · Jun 7, 2002

Originally posted by Autumn
"Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to look for him. For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky."

Ummm....I have doubts.

Hi Autumn,
What translation were you quoting?
Mind if we examine a different translation of that, and a paralell verse?

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:23-24
And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

First of all, I don't see in any accurate translation of the original Greek the term "beyond all doubt". It simply isn't there and must be a translators addition.

Second, Jesus is specific that no one will be able to say "Look, there He is". That should raise the first red flag. If You and I were standing together, you were looking at the ground and I at the sky, I see Jesus descending on a literal cloud, surly I could say to you "look, there He is!", but Jesus is quite clear that if I say that, you are not to believe me.
How do you reconcile that?

Third, His coming was to be like Lightning.
Is lightning a global event?
If I am in Oregon and see lightning, would my friend in Japan see the same lightning at the same time?

Lightning is local.

Just a few points to get you thinking......

Peace,
P70

Manifestation1*AD70 · Jun 8, 2002

These is much to be said on just this one verse that it is necessary we take another complete look at the verse to deal with the remaining parts of the Bible. Matthew 24,is also a chapter that is impossible to give to any other time factor than a past fulfillment.

verse 30 with its reference to "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and "the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" is inseparably connected with the same event considered in the previous verse, having to do with the destruction of Jesusalem.

It is just not possible to separate these things into separate time zones separated be hundreds of years. If the return of Christ comes immediately after the tribulation then our futurist brother have a big problem because the disciples and history state the great tribulation happened before A.D. 70 (1 Thessalonians 1:1-12). Paul here states that they were going through the tribulation Jesus spoke of then. Another bit of confusion comes from the fact that most Bible students confuse the sign.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). What most students of the Bible miss is that the return of Christ was to be a sign that He was in heaven. "The sign of the Son of man IN HEAVEN" is the sign of proof that the Son of man is in heaven (as it says), in fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 which predicted that the Son of man would come "with the clouds of heaven" and "TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS" (in heaven, to receive His everlasting kingdom.

His appearing in judment was proof of that. Remember, the disciples had asked, "What shall be the (sign of thy coming,) and of the end of the world (age)?" The very act of God's destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem itself through the instrumentality of the Roman armies was the manifestation of the power and glory of the Son of man, and it was proof to the Jewish people of the Massiahship of the Lord Jesus Christ that he (was in heaven). Remember they did not believe He we God.

The judgment upon Jesusalem was the (sign) of the fact that the Son of man was ruling and reigning in heaven. These has been misunderstanding due to the reading of this verse, as some have thought it to be 'a sign in heaven; But this is not what the verse says; it says the (sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

The phrase 'in heaven' defines the locality of the Son of man and not of the sign. A sign was not to appear in the heavens, but the destruction of Jesusalem was to indicate the rule of the Son of man (in heaven). The location spoken of by Jesus is heaven, not just the sky; second, it is not the sign which is in heaven, but the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The point is simply that this great judgment upon Israel, the destruction of Jesusalem and the Temple, would be the sign that (Jesus Christ is enthroned in heaven, ruling over the nations and bringing vengence upon His enemies (1 Thessalonians 1:1-12) The location spoken of by Paul in verse 7 of Thessalonians is (from heaven not the sky. The judgement was the visible proof that the Son of Man was bringing vengence upon His enemies from heaven.

parousia70 · Jun 9, 2002

It's a Bump fest!

The Simpleton · Jun 9, 2002

Hello all. This is new (to me) and interesting point of view. Im not a Preturist or a partial Preterist. Im a Futurist but my mind is open to study the possibilities posed here. I have 3 questions which I am curious of. :scratch:

1) Do you Preterists go to Church and if so, does your Church share your views. It would be hard for me to go to Church and hear a doctrine that doesnt agree with my views. I havent heard of a Preterist Church but then, before a few days ago, I hadnt heard of Preterism?

2) It would seem to me that Preterists accept Jesus Christ as the key to salvation just as do Futerists and partial Preterists. As a Futurist, I personally dont see why Preterists wouldnt receive salvation from Christ even if they are wrong on this issue of Christs return. Do Preterists and partial Preterists feel the same way about Futurists?

3) Do any Futurists out there feel that the Preterists salvation is in peril based on their point of view?

davo · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by The Simpleton
Hello all. This is new (to me) and interesting point of view. Im not a Preturist or a partial Preterist. Im a Futurist but my mind is open to study the possibilities posed here. I have 3 questions which I am curious of.

1) Do you Preterists go to Church and if so, does your Church share your views. It would be hard for me to go to Church and hear a doctrine that doesnt agree with my views. I havent heard of a Preterist Church but then, before a few days ago, I hadnt heard of Preterism?

2) It would seem to me that Preterists accept Jesus Christ as the key to salvation just as do Futerists and partial Preterists. As a Futurist, I personally dont see why Preterists wouldnt receive salvation from Christ even if they are wrong on this issue of Christs return. Do Preterists and partial Preterists feel the same way about Futurists?

3) Do any Futurists out there feel that the Preterists salvation is in peril based on their point of view?

G'day Michael :wave:

1] Most prets "I know" do attend some church. The church I attend is "futurist" -and although the futurism may be a tad annoying at times, the main reason I attend is for good fellowship. Like most folk, I don't make eschatology my basis for fellowship

.

2] Yes we accept Jesus Christ alone for salvation :clap:

3] I can only give you my impressions based on "some" futurists responces here -and I would have to say -YES, some do think our "fulfilled" view robbs us of our salvation -being labelled "heretics" "cultic" "deceived" or "deceivers" and the like -but you get that :scratch:

. Really I think it is more reactionary than sincerely held opinion -but I could be wrong??? Others might be more qualified to answer that.

davo

Autumn · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Mike Beidler

... for the simple reason that you were not there as an eyewitness.

No, because I haven't heard about it until now, and no one seems to be giving me the time when Jesus came. Jesus said that it would be like lightning flashing through the sky. That everyone would know. Why isn't it in the history books then? Why isn't it written about? Why have things remained the same?

Autumn · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

Hi Autumn,
What translation were you quoting?
Mind if we examine a different translation of that, and a paralell verse?

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:23-24
And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

First of all, I don't see in any accurate translation of the original Greek the term "beyond all doubt". It simply isn't there and must be a translators addition.

Second, Jesus is specific that no one will be able to say "Look, there He is". That should raise the first red flag. If You and I were standing together, you were looking at the ground and I at the sky, I see Jesus descending on a literal cloud, surly I could say to you "look, there He is!", but Jesus is quite clear that if I say that, you are not to believe me.
How do you reconcile that?

Third, His coming was to be like Lightning.
Is lightning a global event?
If I am in Oregon and see lightning, would my friend in Japan see the same lightning at the same time?

Lightning is local.

Just a few points to get you thinking......

Peace,
P70

Alright, let me explain.

Matt 24: 27
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

No lightening is not global. Yet the way Jesus states this, isn't like actual lightening. He says "as lightning comes from the east and flashes to thewest so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

Here I believe Him to be saying that it will be evident from the east to the west.

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.

Here is the NAS version:
24 "For false Christs and (28) false prophets will arise and will show great (29) signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (30) the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "(31) For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the (32) coming of the (33) Son of Man be.

parousia70 · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Autumn

Alright, let me explain.

Matt 24: 27
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

No lightening is not global. Yet the way Jesus states this, isn't like actual lightening. He says "as lightning comes from the east and flashes to thewest so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

Here I believe Him to be saying that it will be evident from the east to the west.

Yes, but from the east to the west of "what"?
The entire Earth? The Middle east? Jerusalem?

IF we look at how God uses "lightening" elsewhere in scripture, I believe we can get a good idea of what Jesus means by the comparrison:

I think that by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can see that lightning refers to God's judgement, not to a bright light of glory that everyone will see. In these Old Testament passages we see local judgements of God described by the use of lightning.

2 Samuel 22:14-15 (NKJV) "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. 15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.

Psalms 18:14 (NKJV) He sent out His arrows and scattered the foe, Lightnings in abundance, and He vanquished them.

Zechariah 9:14 (NKJV) Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south.

Habakkuk 3:11-12 (NKJV) The sun and moon stood still in their habitation; At the light of Your arrows they went, At the shining of Your glittering [lightning](Hebrew word "baraq", same word translated to "lightning" in the above verses) 12 You marched through the land in indignation; You trampled the nations in anger.

Habakkuk interprets his imagery as a prophecy of the military invasion of Judah by the Chaldeans.

The Greek word used for lightning in Matthew 24:27 is astrape, it means lightning; by anal. glare:--lightning, bright shining. The same Greek word is also used in other passages that speak of judgement.

Luke 10:18 (NKJV) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

That speaks of the judgement of God on Satan.

Revelation 16:18-19 (NKJV) And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

It seems to me, that when Jesus compares his coming to lightning, that he is saying that His coming would be seen in judgement.

Originally posted by Autumn
Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.

Here is the NAS version:
24 "For false Christs and (28) false prophets will arise and will show great (29) signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (30) the elect.
25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "(31) For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the (32) coming of the (33) Son of Man be.

Again, Lightning is a local event, and Jesus likens His coming to it. It would be local, and it would be seen in Judgement.

I believe it was.

Auntie · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Autumn

Matt 24:26-27 (NKJ)
Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Here Jesus is saying that false prophets and false Christs will come, but it will be evident when He comes, so not to be deceived.

Autumn,

I agree with you, I don't see how Jesus could have made his statement any clearer! His words were a clear message that His Great Return could NOT be confused with some false Christ in some isolated place like the desert or in a building somewhere. NO! Jesus made it very clear that His Great Return would be SO magnificent that NO ONE will miss it, and that you would NOT learn of it thru gossip or a second hand report! When Jesus returns, the magnitude of that event will not be measureable! Jesus' Great Return will leave no room for doubt or question, it will be MORE than evident to ALL.

NumberOneSon · Jun 10, 2002

And yet Jesus says if a person says "Look...", then we are not to believe. The locations (desert, building, wherever) vary in Jesus' example. But the one unifying term that Jesus points to is "Look". If someone says "look, He is...", then the Christ has not come. So how can it be obvious to all? Jesus said that His coming would be like lighting from East to West (not North to South, though

), but He also said that people couldn't say "Look, He is...", and His Kindom would not come with observation. Therefore, the "lightning" description cannot be used to interpret an "all-over-the-world-physical" coming in Matt 24, especially since a bolt of lightning does not travel hundreds of miles and is not seen across the planet, and His kingdom would not come with observation. That last point is crucial for you to understand. Lightning can be seen from the "east to the west", but only in a local environment, so even that supports a local judgment.

I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

at_the_river · Jun 10, 2002

His Great Return could NOT be confused with some false Christ in some isolated place like the desert or in a building somewhere.

Dear Ms. Bellum,

Forgive the interruption, but we have to debunk this notion put in our heads by the good folks at Sweet Publishing. Jerusalem was not a hick town full or nomads and loose camels walking about. For a moment, go back in time.

You are a citizen of Jerusalem. You live in THE LARGEST center of economic enterprise in the known world shy of perhaps Rome. Why? You live in the gateway to the east. Your city is effectively New York City. The very rich of Rome own vacation homes here that look out over the Sea of Galilee. Capernum was the Palm Beach of Rome.

That little temple that many futurist think was so insignificant was taller than Cheops' Greatest Pyramid. It was 40 stories tall.

It held the entire wealth of Judea. It was the World Trade Center of the middle east.

In fact, if you remember how devestated you were after September 11th....look at those magnificent towers again falling to the ground, with nothing left but a now empty crater. No sign of it having stood there but the memorials.

Your temple has just been destroyed in the same manner. The Gold taken from the temple so flooded the market that the value of the Roman currency dropped to near worthless for years. Since Rome "owned the known world" that means the known World's currency!

Still think it was an insignificant event? Do you remember the effect on our economy and the world's economy after 9/11?

The above information has been documented by Dr. Ernest L. Martin, a world renown Archeologist and Theologian who saddly passed away last winter. He had just come back from a major seminar in Jerusalem hosted by Israeli and Palastinian Christian leaders...you know those guys...our brothers and sisters caught in the nightmare that evangelicals here praise God for.

Anyway, he wrote a very interesting book titled the Temples that Jerusalem Forgot. This book details his archeological evidence using the Biblical texts as well as Josephus' writings and the Diary of the guy that raised the place himself, General Titus. Now, who better to know than the guy who's job it was to destroy the temple and all of Jerusalem?

General Titus, to further mock the Jews built Fortress Antonia near the site of the Temple. It was nearly 4 centuries later and occupation by various armies that came in after the fall of the Roman empire, that the ruins of this fort were determined to be the temple by clergy looking for evidence that the prophecy was NOT fullfilled...so someone must have thought it was or why try and find evidence to the contrary?

If Dr. Martin is correct...the supposed West Wall that furturist see as proof that the Temple was not destroyed fully as Jesus said it would, is actually the ruins of this Roman Fort.

To quote a dear friend, "Just a thought."

Thank you for your time to read this.

Your sister in the Lord,
--Beth

seebs · Jun 10, 2002

I have to say, I wouldn't call Jerusalem or the Temple there "isolated".

parousia70 · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Acts6:5

I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Man...what a great point!

All futurists must conceed the point that in order for theirs, or any 2nd coming scenerio to indeed come to pass, it could only happen because of the spiritual aspect of the event.

The only way that all the earth could witness such an event simultainously, would be if the event were "spiritual" in nature.

The futurist is quick explain a "Global", simultainous sighting of a Fleshy, 6 foot tall, 150 lb Jesus, by saying "God is capable of anything", but in the same breath he staunchly denies that the 2nd coming is to be understood as "spiritual" in nature.

Go figure.. :scratch:

Autumn · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Acts6:5
And yet Jesus says if a person says "Look...", then we are not to believe. The locations (desert, building, wherever) vary in Jesus' example. But the one unifying term that Jesus points to is "Look". If someone says "look, He is...", then the Christ has not come. So how can it be obvious to all? Jesus said that His coming would be like lighting from East to West (not North to South, though ), but He also said that people couldn't say "Look, He is...", and His Kindom would not come with observation. Therefore, the "lightning" description cannot be used to interpret an "all-over-the-world-physical" coming in Matt 24, especially since a bolt of lightning does not travel hundreds of miles and is not seen across the planet, and His kingdom would not come with observation. That last point is crucial for you to understand. Lightning can be seen from the "east to the west", but only in a local environment, so even that supports a local judgment.

I'd also like to ask futurists; if Jesus is coming back on a literal cloud that can be seen physically, and since we know this world is a globe, then how will Jesus be seen all over the world at the same time? If He comes on a cloud above Pittsburg, Pennsylvania how will the people in Syndey, Australia see Him at the same time? Even a celestial orb like our moon can only be seen by us at certain periods of the the day.

I'm certainly not doubting God's abilities, but I am doubting man's perception of Matt 24.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

The reason that we aren't to believe when someone says "Look..."is because it will be evident when He comes. There will be no questioning about it. He won't appear in some distant land in just one spot...having rumors spread that He is in this land or that. Why would you limit God to our understanding? Could He not appear in the clouds for all to see? Could He not make His appearance that wide known? Let me ask you, How far is the East from the West...does it not go on forever? That is how widespread I believe the coming of Jesus will be.

davo · Jun 10, 2002

The truth is, they all [in Jerusalem and Judea] saw the 'Coming of the Lord' -in judgment, the facts are -only those who recognised "what they saw" got out of town, in accordance with what Jesus prophesied/warned would come in their [read "this"] generation.

PS: Welcome Beth :wave:

-great post! :clap:

davo

Autumn · Jun 10, 2002

A question has just occured to me.

-If Christ's second coming took place at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

-And his comming marks the 1000 year, post Satan's binding reign (which would have ended in the year 1070 A.D.) as per Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." ver. NAS

-And after that reign, Satan is to be released from the Abyss to decieve the nations;

-And following his release is to be bound along with death and Hades, and cast into the lake of fire:

How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

parousia70 · Jun 10, 2002

Originally posted by Autumn

The reason that we aren't to believe when someone says "Look..."is because it will be evident when He comes. There will be no questioning about it. He won't appear in some distant land in just one spot...having rumors spread that He is in this land or that. Why would you limit God to our understanding? Could He not appear in the clouds for all to see? Could He not make His appearance that wide known? Let me ask you, How far is the East from the West...does it not go on forever? That is how widespread I believe the coming of Jesus will be.

So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

what about after he arrives?
Will He be confined to a throne in Jerusalem?
or will He be everywhere?
Like a Santa on every street corner?

Will we each have our own personal Jesus at our beck and call, or will we have to wait in line with the 2 billion other Christians, just to get a glimpse of Him "face to face"? That'd be a long line!

How I came to embrace Preterism.

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