Trinity logic...

Originally posted by jimraboin
Let me ask you. Why are you convinced Trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

You will answer, "Because Catholic institution tells me."

Okay. How does it know trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

It will say, "Because we rely on apostolic tradition as relayed by early fathers."

Okay. Then tell me. How do we know that these early fathers were shown exactly how God is constructed? Especially when they often contradict themselves. Add to that they never claimed God showed them...they merely "imagined". So why should I accept Gentile imaginations over testimony from the believing brothers from Israel? They have never know God as three distinct personalities. Why are they wrong given God's intimate contact and massive revelations he vested within Old Testament Israel? Why is their traditional understanding wrong and Gentile imagination correct?

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Originally posted by jimraboin
Let me ask you. Why are you convinced Trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

You will answer, "Because Catholic institution tells me."

Okay. How does it know trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

It will say, "Because we rely on apostolic tradition as relayed by early fathers."

Okay. Then tell me. How do we know that these early fathers were shown exactly how God is constructed? Especially when they often contradict themselves. Add to that they never claimed God showed them...they merely "imagined". So why should I accept Gentile imaginations over testimony from the believing brothers from Israel? They have never know God as three distinct personalities. Why are they wrong given God's intimate contact and massive revelations he vested within Old Testament Israel? Why is their traditional understanding wrong and Gentile imagination correct?

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Originally posted by psycmajor
Aside from scriptural references, here's one way to see it:

Water comes in 3 forms, yet it's the same thing:
gas
liquid
solid (ice)

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Originally posted by jimbo
Let me ask you. Why are you convinced Trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

You will answer, "Because Catholic institution tells me."

Okay. How does it know trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

It will say, "Because we rely on apostolic tradition as relayed by early fathers."

Okay. Then tell me. How do we know that these early fathers were shown exactly how God is constructed? Especially when they often contradict themselves. Add to that they never claimed God showed them...they merely "imagined". So why should I accept Gentile imaginations over testimony from the believing brothers from Israel? They have never know God as three distinct personalities. Why are they wrong given God's intimate contact and massive revelations he vested within Old Testament Israel? Why is their traditional understanding wrong and Gentile imagination correct?

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“The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as ‘matronita,’ ‘body’, ‘spirit’ occur frequently (e.g. ‘Tazria,’ ed. Polna iii, 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinck, ‘Die Kabbalah’ p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 {transl. of Franck’s ‘La Kabbale,’ Paris 1843}) Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ in the second word in the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii, 22 (ib. p. 10) while Johann Kemper, a convert , left in manuscript a work entitled ‘Matteh Mosheh,’ which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with its doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, ‘Verzeichniss der Hebraeischen und Armamaeischen Handschriften zu Upsala.’ P. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity, but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and its monotheism.”

Isadore Singer ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia , KTAV Publishing, 1901, vol. 12, p. 261.

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Originally posted by Messenger
1John 5:7-8
AND THE SPIRIT IS THE WITNESS, BECAUSE THE SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH. THERE ARE 3 WITNESSES, THE SPIRIT, THE WATER, AND THE BLOOD AND THESE THREE AGREE.

SO THEY AGREE...OFCOURSE THEY DO BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRINITY. TRINITY IS MAN-MADE. IT AMAZES ME THE BELIEF PEOPLE HAVE AND DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND IT YET ACCEPT IT AS THEIRS. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TRINITY DOCTRINE STATES LOOK IT UP AND RESEARCH IT ON YOUR OWN. DON'T TAKE MAN'S WORD FOR IT.

LOVE AND GOD BLESS ALL.

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How a Rabbi Found Peace: A Personal Testimony
Having become proficient in the translation of Hebrew into the vernacular and with a broad knowledge of Jewish history, I was ordained and inducted into rabbinical office.

I served ten years in my first charge, receiving many tokens of affection from my flock. I contributed much to their knowledge of the social, industrial, and economic problems of the day.
I spoke on monotheism, ethical culture, and the moral systems of the Jews. On Sabbath mornings, I gave addresses on the Pentateuch, and on Sundays I taught from eight in the morning to five in the evening with only an hour's break for dinner.
I became popular as a public speaker and was often asked to speak in Christian churches. Well do I recall the day when I proudly stood before an audience of professing Christians and told them why I was a Jew and would not believe in their Christ as my Messiah and Savior. I gloried in the Reform Judaism that acknowledged no need of atoning sacrifice for sin-a religion of ethics which quieted qualms of conscience through a smug self-righteousness.

Suddenly, there came a change. My wife became seriously ill and soon died, leaving me a distraught widower with two small children. I could not sleep. I walked the streets striving to find something that would make me forget the void in my life. My dreams were shattered. Where was comfort to be found? I called on the God of my fathers, but the heavens seemed as brass.

In my confusion, I began to read Isaiah from the beginning. I was stopped at the sixth verse of chapter nine: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Here was a most incomprehensible thing!

I was suddenly faced with the doctrine of the Trinity. What now about our familiar monotheistic slogan, Shema Israel, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai ehad ("Hear 0 Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord")? Upon that word ehad ("one"), the entire philosophy of Judaism is based. I had been taught by the rabbi.,; that ehad means "absolute unity." I began to study that word, and found to my amazement it was used of Adam and Eve who became "one." It was used again when the spies returned from Canaan with a cluster of grapes (eshkol ehad). Again it is found when the "men of Judah" stood up as "one man" (eesh ehad). Suddenly, I was struck with the error l had believed and proclaimed all through my ministry. Ehad cannot mean "absolute unity," but must refer to a composite unity.
Next I began to search for the name of Jesus in the Old Testament. In my study, I found that 275 years before Christ, King Ptolemy Philadelphus summoned men from Palestine and commanded them to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek vernacular. They took the Pentateuch first, and when they came to "Joshua" they translated it Yesous, written with a circumflex over it to show that there had been a suppression of the Hebrew that could not be expressed in Greek. When Joshua went into Canaan with the other eleven spies, he was called Yehoshua ("Jehovah is Savior"). That is exactly what the word "Jesus" means.

http://www.amfi.org/wertheim.htm

A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective
by Richard Harvey
"Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone. . . . So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai--three modes which yet form one unity."(1)

A Christian quote? Hardly. The above is taken from the Zohar, an ancient book of Jewish mysticism. The Zohar is somewhat esoteric and most contemporary Jews don't study it, but there are other Jewish books that refer to God's plurality as well.

Why then won't Jews discuss these things? Could it be that to do so might lead a person to consider Y'shua (Jesus) as who and what he claimed to be?(2) Rabbis denounce the idea that God would come to us in human flesh as utterly pagan and contrary to what Judaism teaches.
What can we actually say that Judaism teaches? Some people see Judaism as a monolith of religion, with all its teachings resting upon the narrow foundation of the Sh'ma. The Sh'ma certainly is a point of unity that all Jews must affirm. But it does not state, imply or even support many of the interpretations and opinions that are labeled "what Judaism teaches."

Ancient sages struggled with several portions of the Hebrew Scriptures and their implications vis-à-vis God's plurality. Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Sh'ma) is but one such passage. Isaiah 6:8 is another: "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" However, the first "proof" passage on God as more than one appears in the first chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures: "And God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).(3)

Rabbis who believed that each word of the Hebrew Scriptures, each letter, is God's revelation
had to admit that God spoke to himself and referred to himself in the plural. How can that be, when we know there is only one God?

Much in Genesis 1:26 seems to confirm the idea that there is one God whose oneness is complex. The idea of God's nature being triune (three in one) is mind-boggling. Contemplation of the infinite is always confusing to finite beings. Nevertheless, certain illustrations can help people grapple with the issue of a complex unity.

Christians consider themselves monotheists, while Jewish tradition maintains that believers in a triunity of God reject monotheism. Yet the Hebrew Scriptures do imply some kind of plurality in the Divinity. Why else would Jewish sages offer various alternatives to explain those implications, particularly in Genesis 1:26? Evaluate the following methods our forebears used to deal with the text.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

IS TRINITY JEWISH?
But is such a concept Jewish? Is it not some Gentile or pagan concept that has somehow crept into our Holy Scriptures as some extreme liberalists would like to tell us? No, this was and still is a Jewish conception of God creating and dealing with His creation and His people Israel in a triune way. This quotation bears it out: Exodus 19 starts with the words, "In the third month." This is explained by the words of Proverbs 22:20, "Have I not written to thee excellent(Hebrew, threefold) things in counsels and knowledge." On this Rabbi Joshua bar Nehemiah said that this is the Torah whose letters are threefold, alf, bet, g(i)ml, and everything is a Trinity: The Torah is trinitarian, for it is composed of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Mishna (talmudical learning) is a trinity composed of talmud (learning) halakhot(daily Jewish laws) and haggadot (historical items). The mediator consisted of a trinity of Miriam, Moses, & Aaron. Prayers are a trinity of morning, afternoon, and evening prayers. Israel is a trinity consisting of priests, Levites and Israelites. The name Moses in Hebrew consists of three letters. He is of the tribe of Levi, which again is in the Hebrew three letters. from the seed of the Patriarchs who are a trinity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; in the third month which is Sivan, after Nisan & Iyar on mount Sin whose letters are three as it is written. "And they rested in the wilderness of Sin.".(Midrash Tanhuma on Exodus 19)

If, according to our rabbis', God has made everything and arranged everything in a trinitarian way. then it must also be Jewish and biblical to know that God, Himself is a Trinity. This He is and has manifested Himself as the Savior, Messiah, and Son of God in the person of the Lord Jesus, the Messiah. He then sent down the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, on the Disciples in the third month, of the Feast of Shavuoth, the feast of perfection, celebrated after counting seven times seven.

http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Where is the Trinity to be found in scripture? "

Umm...why don't you read the last few pages? Would you like me to go over some major points?

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Yes booth, show me the pages of the Bible your referring to that points to a trinity! I'll be waiting and looking for your reply!"
Sure..for starters we can hit a good webpage...
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
This is one of the better ones I have found. check it out.

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Messenger, how many times will you refute Christ's deity without using the Bible to support your beliefs? Please post where your confusion lies. In no time they will be settled. Again, you must have missed

Matthew 28:19-20
Deuteronomy 6:4
Acts 5:3-5
Isaiah 9:6
Mark 2:4-5 (repeated throughout the synoptic gospels)
John 1:1&14
John 10:30
John 20:28
Romans 9:5

Sorry to butt in but aren't you missing something more important to your salvation?

John 8:40 where Jesus says "he is a MAN."
John 17:3 where Jesus says "the FATHER is the ONLY true God."

Jesus said that anyone who BELIEVES in him is NOT condemned; but anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). Jesus ALSO said that anyone who BELIEVES in him HAS life, but anyone who does NOT obey the SON does NOT have life. The WRATH of God ABIDES in him (John 3:36 TEV).

Both are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
Both claim that they will judge the sins of the world.
Both are called God.
Both will resurrect.
Both are life givers.
Both sanctify.
We belong to both.
Both are the Savior.

I am confused how someone can possibly miss the similarities.

So what if the FATHER and the SON have similarities? My son and I are SIMILAR in more ways than one. But I and my son are NOT the SAME father.

What amuses me is how defenders of the FALSE Trinity doctrine jump at anything that LOOKS LIKE "Jesus is God."

Haven't you been taught my friend that the miracles and wonders that Jesus performed were done by God through him? Read Acts 2:22.

Haven't you been taught my friend that God GAVE Jesus the power and authority to SAVE and FORGIVE sins? Read Acts 5:31.

Haven't you been taught that God ORDAINED Jesus, the MAN, to judge the world? Read Acts 17:3.

Haven't you been taught that God GAVE Jesus all the authority in heaven and on earth? Read Matt. 28:18.

Haven't you been taught that it was GOD who raised Jesus from the dead? Read Rom. 10:9.

Haven't you been taught that apostle Paul taught that for him and the Corinthian Christians, there is ONLY ONE God and that ONLY ONE God is the FATHER - not the SON? Read 1 Cor. 8:6.

Haven't you been taught that "no one has ever SEEN God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12) because He is INVISIBLE (1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16).

Haven't you been taught that God is IMMORTAL AND cannot DIE (1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16).

Jesus was SEEN by many when he was BORN, when he PREACHED the gospel, BEFORE he ascended to heaven (1 Cor. 15:5-8), when he ASCENDED to heaven and WILL be SEEN when he comes again (Acts 1:11). In other words, Jesus was VISIBLE - not INVISIBLE.

While God is IMMORTAL and CANNOT die, Jesus is MORTAL and DIED.

Bottomline my friend - the Trinity doctrine is FALSE and adherence to a FALSE doctrine leads only to destruction NOT salvation.

Ed

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