Discriminating grace.

mlqurgw · Nov 28, 2005

Sentry said:
That statement says it all. He did these signs for the people to whom he came.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Yeah, gee I guess he was lying then eh?

The manifestation of the Spirit was given to the Apostles as a sign(Heb. 2:4) but you will have to show me where Christ gave any other sign than the sign of Johah.

You should learn by listening to what you are told. We ARE told WHY he did these signs. You just don't want to hear it.

Where? Please give Scripture with reference.

Sentry · Nov 28, 2005

mlqurgw said:
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The manifestation of the Spirit was given to the Apostles as a sign(Heb. 2:4) but you will have to show me where Christ gave any other sign than the sign of Johah.

Where? Please give Scripture with reference.

That has already been done.

mlqurgw · Nov 28, 2005

Sentry said:
That has already been done.

Point me to the post number.

Sentry · Nov 28, 2005

mlqurgw said:
Point me to the post number.

#6.

That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.

mlqurgw · Nov 28, 2005

Sentry said:
#6.

That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.

Nonsense. Because they viewed them as signs doesn't mean that is why He did them. Add the fact that most, if not all but the twelve, left Him in John 6 should tell us that the things Christ did didn't convince very well. You have not shown where Christ worked miracles as signs.

Desolate Owl · Nov 29, 2005

mlqurgw said:
When Christ came to the pool of Bethesda in John 5 the 5 porches were filled with impotent folk but Jesus came to only one. He left the rest in their impotence. Why?

First, you are assuming that Christ left the rest in their impotence. Where does the text say this? Maybe it is true, but it is not explicitly stated. You are making an assumption.

Maybe Jesus did heal others at this time, but John didn't find it necessary to mention them. Verse 16 says, "So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him." Note that "these" is plural. Maybe this is an indicator that there were multiple healings, maybe not.

If the intent of the passage was to demonstrate individual election, it would seem more likely that John would explicitly state that no others were healed to highlight this fact.

Second, should your assumption be granted, the text does not state why Jesus only healed one. We can only speculate. Maybe he was in a hurry to get somewhere. Maybe he wanted to keep the attention to a minimum. Maybe he wanted the Pharisees to see him heal somebody and healing one was enough. Who knows? There could be plenty of reasons.

I think you are reading into the text something which it doesn't say.

Desolate Owl · Nov 29, 2005

mlqurgw said:
That is exactly what I am proposing. He was a certain man among a multitude. He was looking to be healed some other way. When Jesus asked him if he would be made whole he still only wanted help instead of Christ doing all the work. Even after he was healed he didn't know who Christ was until after Christ made Himself known to him. Despite the public way that Christ healed the man none of the other impotent folk came and asked Him to heal them.

How far are willing to follow your approach?

Note verse 14: "Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."

Under your approach, I think it would be fair to say that the passage teaches that once Jesus saves us, if we start sinning again, we lose our salvation and end up even worse than we were to begin with.

Desolate Owl · Nov 29, 2005

mlqurgw said:
Nonsense. Because they viewed them as signs doesn't mean that is why He did them. Add the fact that most, if not all but the twelve, left Him in John 6 should tell us that the things Christ did didn't convince very well. You have not shown where Christ worked miracles as signs.

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him." - John 2:11

"Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name." - John 2:23

There were many people who believed in Jesus here because of his signs.

"He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." - John 3:2

Jesus' signs demonstrated that he was from God. Here Nicodemus, a Pharisee, is convinced by them.

"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe." - John 4:48

Maybe this reveals Jesus' intent for his miracles. He wants people to believe and knows that they won't if he doesn't do them.

"This was the second miraculous sign that Jesus performed, having come from Judea to Galilee." - John 4:54

"and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick." - John 6:2

After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." - John 6:14

And to sum up the purpose of Jesus signs:

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." - John 20:30 - 31

The reason John was guided by the Holy Spirit to write down all Jesus' miraculous signs is laid out here - that we may believe.

Maybe I've taken all these verses in the wrong way, but you're going to have to come up with something a lot better than pure speculation if you want your argument to be convincing.

mlqurgw · Nov 29, 2005

Desolate Owl said:
"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him." - John 2:11

"Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name." - John 2:23

There were many people who believed in Jesus here because of his signs.

"He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." - John 3:2

Jesus' signs demonstrated that he was from God. Here Nicodemus, a Pharisee, is convinced by them.

"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe." - John 4:48

Maybe this reveals Jesus' intent for his miracles. He wants people to believe and knows that they won't if he doesn't do them.

"This was the second miraculous sign that Jesus performed, having come from Judea to Galilee." - John 4:54

"and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick." - John 6:2

After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." - John 6:14

And to sum up the purpose of Jesus signs:

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." - John 20:30 - 31

The reason John was guided by the Holy Spirit to write down all Jesus' miraculous signs is laid out here - that we may believe.

Maybe I've taken all these verses in the wrong way, but you're going to have to come up with something a lot better than pure speculation if you want your argument to be convincing.

You are correct. I ran off at the mouth before I thought or studied.

The miracles that Christ performed were evidence of who He was but that doesn't mean that was the only reason He did them. I still stand behind my statement they were to teach us something about how God saves sinners. The pictures are too clear.

Desolate Owl · Nov 30, 2005

mlqurgw said:
You are correct. I ran off at the mouth before I thought or studied. The miracles that Christ performed were evidence of who He was but that doesn't mean that was the only reason He did them. I still stand behind my statement they were to teach us something about how God saves sinners. The pictures are too clear.

You are perhaps one of the most humble people I have met on this forum. Twice now I have seen you acknowledge a mistake.

Despite our different theological views, please know that you have my respect. I only hope that I may act with the same graciousness when my own errors are pointed out.

- Owl

mlqurgw · Nov 30, 2005

Desolate Owl said:
You are perhaps one of the most humble people I have met on this forum. Twice now I have seen you acknowledge a mistake.

Despite our different theological views, please know that you have my respect. I only hope that I may act with the same graciousness when my own errors are pointed out.

- Owl

I greatly appreciate yor respect. I only ask that you remember that I am a sinner who is still full of pride and I will undoubtedly say or do someting that is not worthy of such high praise.

hlaltimus · Dec 7, 2005

Why did Samuel pass by all the other sturdy sons of Jesse and single out the runt of the family to be King of Israel in I Samuel 16? Obviously, Israel only needed one King! Christ singled out this one man, here, because at that particular time He only wished for one demonstration of His Messiahship to that particular crowd and it only took one demonstration to prove the point to them that He was who He said He was. Apparently He considered it more important to prove His Messiahship than it was for Him to prove His benevolence, and He proved both here but not to the same extent. Why? Suppose He had healed the entire bunch....Wouldn't it be safe to assume that many of those afflicted people were in that condition for a good reason, namely unrepented of sin? Probably, but some of them just had to be legitimate unfortunates and there is no way you can get around it. OK, some of them deserve their afflictions and some of them don't. In the case of the undeserved, afflicted unfortunates, will not eternity demand a compensation for their undue miseries? The man who was healed will not be compensated for any sovereignly determined afflictions past his moment of healing because there were no more to be compensated for. All of the others, given they trusted in the God of Israel, must be compensated for any and all divinely appointed miseries, (such as the kind mentioned in John 9:2,) at the resurrection of the just and will not their life long, non-healings demand proportionate compensation? If you are wondering why the Lord seems to have singled you out for an unusually healthy portion of afflictions while in this life, this may explain that. What if God is allowing much, but not all, of your sufferings for the exclusive purpose of what He intends to give you when you arrive at glory's gates as compensation for patiently bearing them! Healing really would be nice to have right now, and I ask for it all the time, but that healing will come and go while the celestial mansions are something to keep forever.

Edial · Dec 9, 2005

mlqurgw said:
When Christ came to the pool of Bethesda in John 5 the 5 porches were filled with impotent folk but Jesus came to only one. He left the rest in their impotence. Why?

JN 5:1 Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3 Here a great number of disabled people used to lie--the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. 5 One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"

JN 5:7 "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."

JN 5:8 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

The text presents that this invalid was in such condition for a very, very long time (38 years).

Jesus asked him whether he wants to get well.

He said - Yes (no one helps me). It means he always tried to enter the pool, but was always late.

It was common then to ask whether one wants to get well.Some beggars did not, since begging was the only source of income that they could get.

So, a reason Jesus healed him can be derived from the following data.

1. Invalid for 38 years - could be one of the longest in the crowd.
2. Wanting to get healed
3. Trying to get healed, yet others were not letting him into the pool.

So, putting the 3 together - I think it is something that Jesus would do.

Thanks,
Ed

Discriminating grace.

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