How I came to embrace Preterism.

Originally posted by Autumn

Okay, what is preterism? You believe that Christ has already come back? I believe that Christ will come again, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe that His work was complete on the cross. I realize that my old sinful self has been crucified with Christ, and His Holy Spirit lives within me. That we are called to be Holy, letting Him work through us. From what I read you didn't think that that was possible believing that Christ has not yet come for the second time.

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Hi Autumn. You are missing two biblical points here.

(1) Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the Lord's return to our future, they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ.

Where does the OT prophets distinguish between "a coming in redemption" versus "a coming in judgment?" This king of language is not used by the Jewish prophets. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment). Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. And Jesus ever distinguish between his first coming? (Matthew 26:62-64).

(2) Christ's work was "not" completed at the cross because Paul made this statement years after the cross. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.

According to the inspired Apostle Paul, the day of salvation was at hand years after the cross.

Originally posted by jenlu
Parousia,
That verse is one that I can't fully come to grips with...is appear in there actually visually whether with spiritual or physical eyes...also, didn't He "come" or "appear", if that can be used, to those also who weren't eagerly waiting for him in judgement...

Also...if appear is with spiritual eyes, could that not be when one is converted...In the spiritual sense from then on you will always be with the Lord...

Thanks for your help...

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If I may help.

In order to get a good grip into understanding Hebrews we must immerse ourselves in the Jewish culture, history, and religion of the Old Testament if we hope to go any further and deeper in our understanding of the Bible.

The Jews never had the concept of a second coming, and since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired witting more then our traditions or anyone else's uninspired opinion today.

Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time. In fact the only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the Temple to announce that atonement had been accomplished (see Leviticus 9).

Every first century Jew, understood this to be simply a reappearance of the High Priest-Christ out of the Holiest of ALL to tell the saints that God the Father had forgiven their sin forever (Hebrew 9:24). When the literal temple in Jerusalem was destroyed it was a literal sign to the saints that Jesus sacrifice had been accepted by God the father and the way into the Holiest of All was now open to all the saint (Hebrews 10:19-21).


Read Levitcus 9 and Hebrews 9 and you will see the very same picture. I hope this helps brother.

Originally posted by jenlu
Hey davo...

What's the difference between postmilleniasm and partial preterism...thanks...

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Hi again Jenlu. To tell the truth. There is really no such thing as a "partial preterist." You either believe Jesus'words that all thing are filled and your a preterist. Or you don't and your a futurist. Before I became a preterist I believed that some of the thing were fufilled and I was a futurist.

When it come to believing the words of God-Jesus there is not center ground. You either believe "all the prophecy were fulfilled" and you are a preterist. Or you don't believe "all the prephecy were fulfilled and you are a futurist. The is no center ground as some would have you to believe.

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Manifestation said,


Well, in Acts 1:11, the angels say, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'"

However you interpret that, it seems as clear as Heb 9:28.

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Hi Didaskomenos I will be more then glad to interpret that verse biblicaly. The angel presented spiritual truths. This question arises often. Let's look at the verse...Who also said, "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.'" (Acts 1:11)

What was the manner (fashion) that the disciples saw him go into heaven? Verse nine contains the answer. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight (Acts 1:9) Verse eleven is speaking of the manner of Jesus' going into heaven.

What was that manner? A cloud received Him out of their sight. Now just to see if we are correct in our exegesis of these verses, let's ask another question. Did Jesus ever mention his return in the manner of clouds? Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you , hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on theclouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

As you can see, these verses bear witness that Jesus returned in the same like manner as he appeared in the Old Testament. In the clouds. One of the easiest things is letting the Bible speak for itself. One of the more difficult things is letting the Bible speak for itself.

Originally posted by davo
So many don't "hear" the fulfilled message because of inadequate explanation on our part -especially when it seems our message devalues the Cross -though it doesn't in any way. There is a subtle yet crucial difference here, and it is this: Salvation was established through the Cross, NOT at the Cross.

Through the Cross came salvation, that was then in the first century church being perfected [not that it was in any way inadequate], but there was an outworking to perfection of this salvation. Paul indicates this:

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Paul elsewhere says: "you don't hope for what you already have." Righteousness i.e., salvation was there "hope" It was "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Pt 1:5. And yes Paul elsewhere does speak of it in language that suggests a completed work -it was complete in a postional sense, as in they had the down-payment of it -the Holy Spirit. Yet there was to come a day [The Day of the Lord] of consumation, when that which was initiated in Christ's ministry and ratified by the Cross came to completion at His Parousia in and around AD70 [as no man knew the day nor hour -though they had the signs to look for].

Again, it is important to state that salvation came by means of the Cross, not at it. [Think about it -if it all happened at the Cross, then resurrection was not necessary].

davo

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You have said it all