A Catholicism Discussion

VOW · Jun 6, 2002

To NYJ:

No, I'm not advocating reception of the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin.

But I think it would be wrong for OB to just stop going to Church. I think his best bet would be to talk to a priest, outside of Confession, and then perhaps the discussion would LEAD to Confession. With ANYTHING that you do, the circumstances must be considered, and it is not our place as laity on a message board to say, "This is a mortal sin." The state of sin on anyone's soul is between him and God. And a priest is the one to best guide OB and Mrs OB.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

nyj · Jun 6, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
With ANYTHING that you do, the circumstances must be considered, and it is not our place as laity on a message board to say, "This is a mortal sin." The state of sin on anyone's soul is between him and God. And a priest is the one to best guide OB and Mrs OB.

Not necessarily Vow, not necessarily.

Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

I don't derive kicks or jolly's from pointing to people and saying "Nah, nah... you're a sinner!" because chances are I am a worse sinner than they are. However, perhaps that leaves me in a much better position to approach them because chances are, I've been there, done that.

What I've said, I've said in as serious a tone as I could muster because it is extremely serious. I saw what looked like a cavalier approach to the Eucharist (how else was I supposed to take "You NEED the Eucharist even more now!") and felt the need to speak up and clarify.

What OB needs isn't the Eucharist, but Confession. Two entirely different sacraments, two entirely different sacramental graces. Like I said, perhaps I misunderstood what you said, but to me, reading If anything, you NEED the spiritual food of the Eucharist more than ever now. sounded like an invitation to the Eucharist to me. That is the only reason I responded, it certainly wasn't to condemn OB.

KC Catholic · Jun 6, 2002

/me is wondering if NYJ will say "machinations" again?

VOW · Jun 6, 2002

To NYJ:

I understand your point, and I agree with your position. I was looking at it from the perspective that OB was talking about walking out the door. And the Eucharist is what you need to build up your spirituality, to create yourself into the being that God wants you to be. OB is MISSING something from his life, or he wouldn't be drawn to a Catholic message board. To me, if someone leaves the Church, he's not leaving Confession, or Baptism, or anything else as much as he's leaving the EUCHARIST.

And I would pray that his need for the Eucharist would drive him to do the right thing, namely, seek Reconciliation, and then receive God.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

_Orion · Jun 6, 2002

nyj, I understood your point and thank you for your insight...

VOW...seeing a priest is on my agenda. I'm a bit skeptical though. At least in my parish, our pastor and associate are Lutherans as far as I can tell

Let's just say they're very very liberal. Our mass doesn't really resemble a semi-traditional mass...at least not how I understand it.

This again is a sticking point with my wife. I point out blatent illicit things at mass and I'm told to relax and don't be so serious...or that I'm just being contrary.

I've had some semi-productive conversations via email with a priest...and I am going to go sit with our parish priest, but like I said...I'm not getting my hopes up too high with him. My wife told me his homily a few weeks back was about Women Clergy and a Married Clergy and how that would solve alot of the problems and scandals...

I'm rambling...thanks nyj and VOW...

VOW · Jun 6, 2002

To OB:

I don't like the concept of "parish shopping," but have you considered another Church?

And not to be a tattle-tale, but you MIGHT think of talking to the Bishop of your diocese.

Peace,
~VOW

KC Catholic · Jun 6, 2002

OB-

If you are serious about talking through your issues with Church teachings, I would consider finding a parish with a more orthodox background.

We had to change parishes for the same reason. The priest at the church would not talk about sin, pro-life, the need for confession, etc., etc. We had moved from Wichita, KS which is a very conservative diocese (thank God) and we were shocked at how this priest conducted himself.

Anyway...we discovered a more conservative parish by accident and we've been there ever since.

Wolseley · Jun 6, 2002

At least in my parish, our pastor and associate are Lutherans as far as I can tell Let's just say they're very very liberal. Our mass doesn't really resemble a semi-traditional mass...at least not how I understand it.

This again is a sticking point with my wife. I point out blatent illicit things at mass and I'm told to relax and don't be so serious...or that I'm just being contrary.

I've had some semi-productive conversations via email with a priest...and I am going to go sit with our parish priest, but like I said...I'm not getting my hopes up too high with him. My wife told me his homily a few weeks back was about Women Clergy and a Married Clergy and how that would solve alot of the problems and scandals...

Oy, gevalt. Sounds like your priests need to start their own club where they can make the bylaws. :sigh:

An unfortunate situation, and one that is all too common, I'm afraid. But remember: what you are encountering is not Catholicism. It's liberal post-Vatican II left-wing balderdash passing itself off as Catholcism, what I like to call "Catholic Lite". "We're implementing Vatican II", they like to say, when what they really mean is, "We're implementing our own liberal ideas and calling it Vatican II."

Leaving aside for the moment that Protestant clergy are married (and some of them are female) and it hasn't stopped scandals with them, methinks that you ought to find a parish perhaps a shade more traditional, and talk to the priest there. Have you considered that maybe the reason your faith seems to be doing a fadeout is because it's not being fed with anything other than wallpaper paste?

I tend to agree with VOW. If there were nothing else in the world that was holding me to Catholicism, the Real Presence would. I cannot, will not, ever, abandon Christ in the Eucharist. Take my arms, take my legs, take my house; take whatever you want, but not my access to the Sacraments. Merciful Lord Jesus, not that, ever.

It's up to you, of course, but me personally---I would think long, deep, and hard before making that move. And in the end, I wouldn't make it.

I will pray for you, OB. I do wish you well, my friend. God love you.

Benedicat et pace,
---Wols.

nyj · Jun 6, 2002

Originally posted by OB

I remember being afraid of drinking "blood"...I'm no long afraid per se...but I'm not sure if it's really blood anyway...

Obviously you are struggling with greater issues than just "Catholic morals". Your profession is not in the physical/life sciences is it?

People telling you to stay, if for no other reason than the Eucharist, when you have serious concerns about whether or not the Eucharist IS the Real Presence won't mean much.

You've got a long road to journey OB, and it seems like you've been on it awhile. There comes a point in our lives where we need to realize we do not have all the answers, nor can we rationalize every event that takes place. Our control is limited, if not altogether non-existant, on this ball of dirt hurtling through space. To me it seems that you need help in the mystical/spirituality side of religion. I know myself, personally, this was an area I struggled with mightily until I just surrendered myself and came to the conclusion that I would not be able to come up with a testable hypothesis for everything the Church taught and holds us to de fide.

_Orion · Jun 6, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To OB:

I don't like the concept of "parish shopping," but have you considered another Church?

And not to be a tattle-tale, but you MIGHT think of talking to the Bishop of your diocese.

Peace,
~VOW

There is another parish in my proximity that my wife has considered checking out...primarily for the school. We live in Chicago, and to be honest, I'm not sure how "squeaky" you would have to be in order to be heard. Obviously, Cardinal George has associate bishops...just feel in a large diocese small parishes in the burbs kinda get lost and do their own thing...

nyj:

No, I'm not in the physical sciences although, sometimes in hindsight, I think I have an aptitude and interest but never followed it up. I'm a business person.

And after reading your post a few times, I agree with you. The Catholic Moral part of it is just the surface. I'm not a very good writer, and I think that's what I tried to get across in my initial post. Some things just don't make sense to me.

The fact that morals are based on authority derived from Christ himself is a stumbling block for me. Some of the Catholic beliefs don't always call to me. Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Peter's Primacy. I can recite some Catholic perspectives and teachings very easily...whether or not I truly believe them is another matter...For example..Adam and Eve...**edit to add**( I know Roman Catholics have a unique view of creation/evolution) I have a hard time with the whole Garden of Eden...the fall of man...original sin. When my kids were born, original sin was the furthest thing from my mind. Innocence and love were what was on my mind. Baptism wasn't so much a cleansing, but a ritual.

The more I study and try to educate myself, the more I seem to scratch my head and really consider if this is what I believe. Like I mentioned in another thread I think...I have been through 16 years of pretty orthodox catholic education...and all the while I never just bought it hook line and sinker. Now 15 years after college, and having Children, I'm really really starting to examine it all again...and I'm coming to the same conclusions.

I really appreciate everyone's feedback and insight. It feels good to "talk" about these things. My wife isn't up for this sort of thing...and not that I think that's a bad thing...she just believes and that's enough for her. I'm not one to judge...especially her.

And VOW ... I think you're also right in the fact that I did come here to talk it out...

After re-reading my post...I do need to examime my beliefs.

Thanks to all

Kotton · Jun 6, 2002

Originally posted by OB
Transubstantiation...probably another good stand alone thread.

I remember sitting in church in the 5th or so grade...and later as an altar boy...watching mass and attempting to analyze what was happening. The consecration and Transubstantiation.

After all these years, it still doesn't quite add up for me...

I remember being afraid of drinking "blood"...I'm no long afraid per se...but I'm not sure if it's really blood anyway...

I'm not sure this relates to your post but:
My Catholic Husband tells me that actually all the Protestants who believe the bread and wine are only symbolic are correct for their churches. Protestants who think it is the "Real Presence" are incorrect for their churches, since they doen't have real priests to consecrate the bread and wine, the Real Presence does not occure and it really is just bread and wine in all non-Catholic churches. Therefore everyone is correct! At "Mass" it is the Real Presence, at "Church" it is just symbolic. So the Protestants don't have to worry about drinking blood or eating real flesh. :pink:

_Orion · Jun 7, 2002

Hi Kotton,

I'd agree with you that there is a huge difference between Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation.

Huge Theological Differences...

I remember when I was in grade school and receiving communion and mildly freaking out about the literal flesh and blood thing. I honestly think I just blocked it out because I really don't think about it when I do recieve communion.

It's an interesting subject...I know quite a few Adult Catholics who still think it's symbolic...it might just be denial from their youth...

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 7, 2002

Originally posted by OB
Hi Kotton,
It's an interesting subject...I know quite a few Adult Catholics who still think it's symbolic...it might just be denial from their youth...

Have there ever been any scientific tests done on the bread/wine to see if the physical properties of the bread/wine turned into flesh/blood after the priest does his thing? :scratch:

_Orion · Jun 7, 2002

I'm fairly confident that the "bread" and "wine" do not physcially change into flesh containing DNA or whatever.

The character of the bread is changed but not the physical properties of it.

From the Newadvent FAQ

...Your question unnecessarily posits a conflict between a supernatural presence and a substantial one. Jesus is both substantially present (bread and wine really become his body and blood) and supernaturally present (transubstantiation occurs by the supernatural action of God; the accidents of bread and wine remain without the substances of bread and wine).

In consuming the Eucharistic elements, the physical mechanisms of eating injure only the accidents of bread and wine. The process of consuming the host doesn't involve ripping and tearing Christ's body, despite its substantial presence. This is why the charge of cannibalism won't work.

We can still say Christ's flesh and blood are consumed sacramentally in Holy Communion because what is eaten is literally his body and blood, even if the physical action of eating affects only the accidents of bread and wine.

edit to add link for more q&a http://www.newadvent.org/faq/faq028.htm

VOW · Jun 7, 2002

To Souljah:

We already KNOW the physical properties are the same. I don't know if anyone would ALLOW the consecrated Host and Wine to be analyzed scientifically. I mean, would you want Jesus to be X-rayed or have a CAT scan?

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 7, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Souljah:

We already KNOW the physical properties are the same. I don't know if anyone would ALLOW the consecrated Host and Wine to be analyzed scientifically. I mean, would you want Jesus to be X-rayed or have a CAT scan?

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Sorry, I was just wondering.

nyj · Jun 7, 2002

I had a long post in which I was going to explain the Doctrine of Transubstantiation but as I was looking for a final (*^&@^ quote to put into the post, my browser crashed and I lost it.

I don't have time to rewrite it at the moment (hopefully I can tonight), but in the meantime, the following article might help some:

http://www.cts.org.au/2001/universitas10/breadandwine.htm

The age of miracles is past, some want us to believe. This is said when the greatest miracle of all is being performed at every time of the day all around the world. What is lacking, then, is not the miraculous power of God, but faith.

nyj · Jun 7, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah

Have there ever been any scientific tests done on the bread/wine to see if the physical properties of the bread/wine turned into flesh/blood after the priest does his thing?

In some of the more "extreme"* miracles (every Consecration is a miraculous event), the answer is yes.

*By extreme I mean that not only was the substance of the Eucharist changed but the accidental properties were also changed.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

(Take particular notice of the miracle that occured in Lanciano in the 8th century. The 8th century! And the flesh is still uncorrupted over 1300 years later!)

A very good article to read on the Eucharist was written by the late Fr. Hardon : http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/m_worker.htm

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 7, 2002

Originally posted by nyj

In some of the more "extreme"* miracles (every Consecration is a miraculous event), the answer is yes.

*By extreme I mean that not only was the substance of the Eucharist changed but the accidental properties were also changed.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

(Take particular notice of the miracle that occured in Lanciano in the 8th century. The 8th century! And the flesh is still uncorrupted over 1300 years later!)

A very good article to read on the Eucharist was written by the late Fr. Hardon : http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/m_worker.htm

Thanks njy, those are very helpful!!

cheezit · Jun 7, 2002

===cheezit looks around and raises hand, meekly, wondering if it is o.k. to ask a couple of dumb questions. Decides it is probably o.k. considering he isn't a Catholic, and as such knows next to nothing about Catholic teaching===

Just out of curiosity, and that is all it is, curiosity, what is wrong with using birth control, if it stops even one birth of an unwanted baby? For instance, if a newly wed couple doesn't use birth control of any kind, it is conceivable (no pun intended) that they could have a baby every 9 or 10 months. Assuming that to be the case and it happened, how long do you suppose that marriage would last, if they only wanted 2 kids at the most? Especially if they weren't blessed with the finanaces to afford all of the costs involved. It isn't right to expect a newly wed couple to "abstain" because they don't want babies, is it?

==now returning you to your normally scheduled thread==

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